I cannot tell if this is a loving offer or sarcasism. My husband and I posted this together. I am S and he is G. We are trying to make this program work for us and we spent days trying to sort out what to say and how to say it prior to posting. We are hopeful to get support and some answes to what might be going on.

G is not trying to hide anything - he is looking for help and trying to figure this all this out.

We have been painfully honest with each other; we have followed MB recommendations almost to a T

u (with the exception of going public - and i am the one not ready to do so. I am a very private person who is in the public eye and who wants to protect my family from over exposure in a world where everyone feels entitled to know everything about anyone they want to know something about.)

Maybe it is guilt; maybe it is fear; maybe it is years of undiagnosed depression and/or anxiety but it is real to him and it is really bothering him and overwhelming him and thus I am confused about what to do and how to move forward.

I am not suggesting G did not do anything wrong - his affairs were not so much sexual but more like short spells of dating and neither the women were married

We realize plan b is intended for couples where the wayward cannot seperate from their lover - that is not the case here which is why it is so confusing. We appreciate everyones comments and support and hope this clarifies our situation.

All of my husband�s brainstorming suggestions center around him being able to be away from home to sort things out, to do his work without having to worry about the marriage builders prescriptions and to have the flexibility to do what he wants throughout the day.

"We need to be apart so I can find myself" What a cute little euphamism that is, finding yourself or finding out who you are.

Many of my dear friends here no that I am a big believer in using a gentle touch on those unfortunate souls who either "Need to find themselves" or "Need to find out who they are" before they can come home to their families.

So, as a public service to these unfortunate souls I have composed "Finding yourself for Dummies"

First, finding yourself...
1. If you can't find yourself, try looking in your shoes. More than likely you will be there.

2. Do not bother looking where your children or responsibilities are, though that would be a reasonable place to look we know you are not there.

3. If need be, go to the police station and give the desk sargeant an 8x10 or you and ask to have an APB put out since you can't find yourself.

4. Ask your child to point to their mom/dad, if you are not sure which one you are reach into your pants and feel around, if there is a penis there, you are dad, if not, you're probably mom.

Now one of these tried and true methods ought to help you find yourself, but it probable dark so let's help you see better. Reach behind you, palms facing you, arms hanging down and grab. That's your butt. Now reach in that and look for a large round object, that is your head. Now, with both hands pull as hard as you can. You are now performing recto-cranial extraction.

Ok, now you have found yourself. We are making progress here! Now we need to find out "who you are". This is not so hard. Look around the house - if there are one or more particularly short little people ask one of them, they are called children, they probably know the answer as it was one of their first two or 3 words. Not able to talk yet? No sweat.

Look for the full grown person with the red eyes who looks like they haven't slept in a while - they probably know. They aren't home??? let's keep looking.

Try looking in a desk or filing cabinet. Look for folders named "mortgage", "Utilities", Or "Marriage license". There will probably be two names here - you are one of those. So we have found you and narrowed it down to two people.

Now look and see if there is a wallet around. Remember that? Little pocket sized leather folding thingy. Look for something that says drivers license. There should be a name. Now find a mirror (Glass thingy in the bathroom), look at the picture on the driver's license and the face in the mirror, if they match, the name on the license is WHO YOU ARE. If they don't, check those papers you found - you are the other name.

Now that you have found yourself and know who you are go find the other full grown person in the house and introduce yourself. Start out with "I'm sorry I could not find myself or figure out who I was, I know now"

Next, knock off the drama, quit being melodramatic and start being mom/dad, husband/wife like you are supposed to and quit with the childish theatrics because the final piece is WHERE YOU ARE. This is called the real world where people depend on you to act like a grownup and keep track of details like who and where you are. The little people in the house are kinda sorta counting on you too.

If this doesn't work and you have to take a journey to answer these questions there is a chance that when you find yourself you will be alone, without a house, without a spouse, without children who love you and without a penny. That is how my XW found herself a year later. Trust me, my plan outlined earlier is better.

Ahhhhhhhhh.... okay, I needed to get that out since the day my XW took off into the sunset and another post yanked that rant out of me. If your WS tells you that they need time away to find themselves and discover who they are print it out for them. If they can't follow the directions make sure the door doesn't hit them in the rear and injure their head. There is a reason I harp on not putting up with crap from WS's who like to play little selfish games - if you indulge them they keep playing them.

I'm better now. Thanks for letting me take a good long vent... maybe I am finally getting my old, dead, buried, BS issues from the days before I met J out of my system.

All of my husband�s brainstorming suggestions center around him being able to be away from home to sort things out, to do his work without having to worry about the marriage builders prescriptions and to have the flexibility to do what he wants throughout the day.

Thank you for taking time to respond to my post. Yes my WH is aware of my post. He agreed to what I wrote and wants to hear from the group what they have to say.

My translation:

N says: I want to be away from home to sort things out.
I want to keep you at home while I act as if I am not married.

N says: I want to do my work without having to worry about the marriage builders prescriptions.
I want to forget about the difficult & tiresome MB work altogether. It's a drag.

N says: I want to have the flexibility to do what I want throughout the day.
I want the flexibility to contact OW and have some of my needs met by OW while having some of my needs met by you. I am still getting a 'high' from OW, but I want you to keep up your end of the marriage.

Two weeks ago (March 16th) while discussing the chapter on the Rule of Honesty, G said he was feeling overwhelmed and told S that he wanted to spend some days and nights apart during the week to allow time for him to figure things out. Through his real estate management contacts an opportunity has presented itself for him to stay in a nearby condo for six months. He explained he did not want to follow Plan B as described in Marriage Builders because he did not want a complete separation; just a few days/nights a week away for an undetermined amount of time to focus on his work and to sort some things out.

The Six Deadly Symptoms

A young couple I know, Jim and Helen, have been together for just over a year. Helen, a professor of literature at a community college, has huge brown eyes and a broad, perfect smile. She was introduced to Jim at a party, and Jim seemed delightful. Tall and soft-spoken, he's a successful songwriter. The couple share a great affection for each other. However, for Helen the ease of being with Jim has been draining away. In fact, their relationship has progressed through the six stages of emotional blackmail.

To give you a clear idea of what the six emotional blackmail symptoms look and feel like, let's walk through a simplified version of a conflict that came up between Jim and Helen. You'll notice that some of the symptoms describe Jim's behavior, and some focus on Helen's.

1: A demand. Jim wants something from Helen. He suggests to her that they've been spending so much time with each other, they might as well move in together. "I practically live here already," he tells her. "Let's just make it official." Her apartment is huge, and half his things are there, he adds, so it'll be a simple transition.

Sometimes blackmailers don't verbalize what they want as clearly as Jim did, but instead make us figure it out. Jim might make his point indirectly, perhaps sulking after a friend's wedding, then letting Helen extract from him, "I wish we could be closer; I get so lonely sometimes," and eventually saying that he'd like to move in.

At first blush, Jim's suggestion sounds loving, and not like a demand at all, but it soon becomes clear that he is set in his course of action and is not willing to discuss or change it.

2: Resistance. Helen feels uncomfortable about Jim's moving in and expresses her unwillingness by telling him that she's not ready for that kind of change in the relationship. She cares deeply for him, but she wants him to have his own place.

If she were a less direct person, Helen might resist in other ways. She could withdraw and become less affectionate, or tell him that she's decided to repaint and he'll have to take his things home until the job is done. However she expresses her resistance, the message is clear. The answer is no.

3: Pressure. When he sees that Helen isn't giving him the response he wants, Jim does not try to understand her feelings. Rather, he pushes her to change her mind. At first he acts as if he's willing to talk over the issue with her, but the discussion becomes one-sided and turns into a lecture. He transforms Helen's statement of resistance into a statement of her deficiencies, and he casts his own desires and demands in the most positive terms: "I only want what's best for us. I only want to give to you. When two people love each other, they should want to share their lives. Why don't you want to share yourself with me? If you weren't so self-centered, you could open up your life a little."

Then he turns on the charm and asks, "Don't you love me enough to want me here all the time?" Another blackmailer might turn up the pressure by adamantly insisting that his moving in would improve the relationship and bring them closer. Whatever the style, pressure will come into play, though it may be cloaked in benevolent terms--for example, Jim's letting Helen know how much her reluctance is paining him.

4: Threats. As Jim continues to hit a wall of resistance, he lets Helen know there will be consequences if she doesn't give him what he wants. Blackmailers may threaten to cause us pain or unhappiness. They may let us know how much we're making them suffer. They may also try to tantalize us with promises of what they'll give us, or how much they'll love us, if we go along with them. Jim works on Helen with veiled threats: "If you can't make this kind of commitment to me after all we've meant to each other, maybe it's time for us to see other people." He doesn't directly threaten to end the relationship, but the implication is impossible for Helen to miss.

5: Compliance. Helen doesn't want to lose Jim, and tells herself that perhaps she's been wrong to say he can't move in, despite her continuing uneasy feelings. She and Jim only talk superficially about her concerns, and Jim makes no attempt to allay them. A couple of months later, Helen stops resisting, and Jim moves in.

6: Repetition. Jim's victory ushers in a quiescent period. Now that he's gotten his way, he removes the pressure, and the relationship appears to stabilize. Helen is still uncomfortable about how things have turned out, but she's also relieved to have the pressure off and to regain Jim's love and approval. Jim has seen that pressuring Helen and making her feel guilty is a sure way to get what he wants. And Helen has seen that the fastest way to end Jim's pressure tactics is to give in. The groundwork is laid for a pattern of demands, pressure and capitulation.

These six characteristics are at the heart of the emotional blackmail syndrome, and we will be returning to them and exploring them more deeply throughout this book.

The author is Susan Forward.... has anyone read this one?

Pep

Is there such a thing as a modified Plan B or a part time Plan B?

Oh Mel "G" is here, but he's hiding behind his wife's skirt.
He's letting her do all the heavy lifting.

he�d like to stay at this location 2-4 nights a week to have time away to think and experience what it would be like to be separated. That maybe being away from the family and me a few nights a weeks or a few weeks at a time would help him appreciate what he has and that when he comes back at the end of the six months he�ll be ready to give our marriage his 100 percent

My memory gets a bit fuzzy as the years go by, which is a blessing since those days tended to be rather dark in retrospect. I may have mixed up some of the details.

I had at least two or three (or 4) false recoveries. Each time I let him back too soon. The first one was around the holidays. That 'recovery' lasted until mid to late January...or sooner.

I let him back too soon without safeguards in place. He didn't get boundaries. He still felt very entitled especially to privacy...etc. He moved into an apartment for 4 months after that. I exposed to OW husband. She told him she was 'in luv' with mine...and wanted a D. He didn't try to save the marriage but went directly to D. The D took a yr and a half or two. They had 3 kids as did we.

This was all pre-MB. I made lots of mistakes and did lots of stupid things. I confronted the other woman at her house and when she lied to my face I slapped her across hers...she could have had me arrested, I suppose. I used to obsessively drive by WH's apartment or her house always trying to catch them. Then I tried to 'move on'...made WH a bit jealous....he became quite a fence sitter. I had an A with my H at some point. He moved back home.

Their no contact may have lasted a few months.
I think they tried to cool it for her divorce but it wasn't real.
He started locking his truck, being late or unreachable on his cell phone...being distant, criticizing almost everything I did or didn't do...even stupid little things of no consequence.

His excuse...when I figured it out...was that he just wanted to call and see how she was doing. I found a secret affair cell phone (which she provided for him) hidden in his truck...I found it while he was napping or something and I had found the spare key to his truck. The phone was in a red leather case hidden behind the seat in the box where the jack was kept. Actually, there may have been other false recoveries because I recall another time seeing the secret cell phone on his truck seat once...as though he wanted to be found out ending another false recovery. So, I may have some of these details mixed up.

We seemed to be doing well for a few months....had a honeymoon time...but there was still something entitled...without remorse, about his attitude. Once it was clear that they were back on...he moved in with her after her D was final in March. The A lasted another month or two...REALITY had set in. He wanted to come home. He moved in with a friend for a couple of months. I wouldn't let him come right home that time. He needed to get counseling, we got some counseling together. That A was on and off for about 4 yrs.

I had read Love Must be Tough...and a shelf full of other book including HNHN... but thought we were ok enough not to push it on him. After all, people thought we were newlyweds we seemed to happy together. We even renewed our vows in church.

Again, it was great for a while. But, he still didn't understand boundaries and why he needed them. I still felt that I couldn't bring up uncomfortable subjects with him...the A.

So, he became acquainted with another needy married woman...this one was rather pretty, younger. They became friends....I don't know if anything happened between them then but I found him at her house and it took several minutes for him to come out....he was in the bathroom. He claimed they were just friends. I was outraged.

He didn't see her after that until she called our office about a yr and a half later and I gave him the message. I had never learned her name before. Her husband had just left her so another affair was on. That lasted 8 months. I didn't find out it was the same woman the he had said he was 'just friends' with...at first I thought it was the OW with whom he had the 4 yr affair.

All the same signs came back again...the distance, the disappearing, lame excuses for not being available by cell phone, the criticism etc. I busted him with his cell phone records again. Studid guy. He still claims they 'only' had sex 2 times and he couldn't perform the last time. Even though we've been through MB and he has agreed to RH...I still doubt that it was only 2x. I wish I would have insisted on a polygraph...he said he wouldn't take one. I also imagine he was unfaithful many more times in our marriage when thinking about his marital behavior on and off. At one point he said he did...because he could...he has always lied easily...unfortunately.

This time, I reacted without emotion, I was calm...felt like I was done...I had had it....he could leave, we'd separates all our stuff...lives and we'd D. Then we went to speak with our priest at the time and he recommended we speak with a rational emotive behavior therapist. We saw him several times. He read Surviving and affair and seemed to 'get it'.

My H decided he didn't want a D, he ended the A. A few months later we went to the MB weekend (March 2003) and did the follow up. He was completely different this time. Remorseful, repentant...did lots of the footwork/actions himself. He now understands what he needs to do to maintain he personal boundaries...that he can't have woman friends without me...and he can't have intimate personal conversation with women.

This last year he worked out of state for the better part of 6 months. Dr. Harley says we shouldn't be separated of even one night. We are separated lots more than that...well, so far so good....but I don't like the situation. It is the main way he is earning a living right now. H constantly reassures me of his boundaries and what he is doing. So far, so good...but time will tell how this works long term. It is hard to reconnect right away when he comes back after being gone so long.

Before MB, I tried following Love Must be Tough and followed advice in that book at different points...but not consistently enough. I wish I had MB sooner rather than later. I found MB website in Dec. '02 and read about plan A and plan B. A light went on. I found the forum when we were already starting recovery a few months later...maybe after our MB weekend. Unfortunately, through all the false recoveries I had a bad case of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome...and this whole subject has consumed way to much of my life. I can only hope that in the end I will be glad I chose to stay in this marriage. Our marriage is better than pre-A's but I sure wish I could have skipped this learning experience.

Pep, I know your sending out a call for BS's so I hope you don't mind my intrusion.

N/C is a no brainer, but I negotiated my way around this during our FR. I told SMB it wasn't necessary, as I told her I had already taken care of that. I was not willing to be transparent on the N/C issue either.

In our FR, I also never told her 2 critical statements, "I was willing to do anything she asked", never agreed to, "do whatever it takes to recover our marriage".

During our FR, I also decided to keep my "Independent Behavior", "I needed my space".

During our FR, I also said I wanted to come home for the kids. In contrast to when I came home broken and repentant, I told SMB I wanted HER and then she knew I meant it.

You already know what I agreed to do when I asked SMB "to please have me back". SMB's list is in your notable posts thread. It would have been a mistake for SMB to take me back without my full agreement to her list of conditions.

I should have been less patient.


That she was only "on board" with parts of recovery. I ignored this, thinking that she would come around to the rest of things. The reality is she was "on board" with none of it.


Ignore meaningless "progress." The big things matter, NC, O&H, time together, committing to recovery, and action. If those aren't happening, then the "good talk" last night, and the WS said "ILY", etc. are just a smoke screen.

Man, this is gonna be a long list.

~kept saying that he wanted to recover "his way", which only meant spending time together, mostly partying and having fun.

~like FF's H, spent most of his time in our room, being "depressed". I think our bed is permanenty indented where he planted his b*tt for 10 months, glued to his laptop.

~refused to take me on business trips to the OW's hometown (or any business trip, for that matter). HUGE RED FLAG, duh!!!

~freaked out whenever I checked his laptop.

~refused to use any of the MB concepts...POJA, PORH, giving up IBs, etc.

~hated, I mean REALLY HATED any questions about the A. [not that any FWS LIKES these questions, but it's sure different now.]

~moped around for months, blaming me because he had to give up some IBs...when it was really the A and stress he was putting himself under that was making him so miserable.

~was MAD when I threw the clothes away that I knew he wore to see OW. I could hardly touch them and he was MAD!

~flipped out when I wanted to get rid of triggers [Plan B is great for this, I CLEANED HOUSE in regards to the A. No mercy whatsoever.]

~continually blamed me for his A because I wouldn't support his IBs!!

~MAJOR mid-life crisis things...bought a Harley, more tattoos, re-pierced his ears. [He has toned this down majorly now.] He was the MLC Poster Boy and I'm not kidding.

Is there such a thing as a modified Plan B or a part time Plan B? And if so how is it done?

In January 2013 my husband of 26 years confessed that for last 18 months he'd had 3 different relationships/affairs. My husband and I have been working on Plan A for 11 weeks but recently he told me he wants to move out on a part time basis. He has an opportunity to have a free place to stay (condo sit) for about six months and he�d like to stay at this location 2-4 nights a week to have time away to think and experience what it would be like to be separated. That maybe being away from the family and me a few nights a weeks or a few weeks at a time would help him appreciate what he has and that when he comes back at the end of the six months he�ll be ready to give our marriage his 100 percent.

We�ve tried to come to and enthusiastic agreement but we are stuck. All of my husband�s brainstorming suggestions center around him being able to be away from home to sort things out, to do his work without having to worry about the marriage builders prescriptions and to have the flexibility to do what he wants throughout the day. I am not at all comfortable with his suggestions because I am committed to Plan A.

Am I wrong for being disagreeable to him having the flexibility to come and go from our home as he feels his emotional needs need to be met? He says it�s not like that - he does not want to move out - he wants to still keep his things here and he�ll need to have access to our home office, his tools, his belongings. After all in his mind this is only temporary and he�ll have to come home after the 6 months is over and he does not really want to �separate� he just wants the opportunity to get away for a few weeks or days at a time. He really does not know what he wants or how long it will take because he has not done it yet and he wants to see how it goes.

I am confused because I do not want him to move out for fear that it will make matters of concern worse. Yet, I don�t want to feel like I am forcing him to stay at home to work on Plan A when he really does not want to be here and keeps thinking of the opportunity he is missing by not using the six months to have a free place to stay while it�s available. I also cannot imaging being on that emotional roller coaster wondering if he�ll be wanting to stay home one night and then not the next; or be gone for a few weeks only to return home a night or two and then decide he�s not ready. Is that really fair to me and the family?

I feel that if he is going to move out then he should do just that - separate completely for the six months. I really do not want to go this route because I�m committed to Plan A; but at the same time what good is it to have him home knowing he wants to be somewhere else and knowing that I am the one driving Plan A? The prolonged gridlocked on what to do is having an adverse effect on me and I am starting to feel more heartbroken and lonely. I am starting to think that Plan B may be the only option regardless of me not having an enthusiastic agreement.

So, is there such a thing as a part time or modified plan B? If so, how does one implement it?

Are You Being Gaslighted?
Check for these telltale signs:
1. You constantly second-guess yourself.
2. You wonder, �Am I being too sensitive?� a dozen times a day.
3. You wonder frequently if you are a �good enough� girlfriend/wife/employee/friend/daughter.
4. You have trouble making simple decisions.
5. You think twice before bringing up innocent topics of conversation.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner�s behavior to friends and family.
7. Before your partner comes home from work, you run through a checklist in your head to anticipate anything you might have done wrong that day.
8. You buy clothes for yourself, furnishings for your apartment, or other personal purchases thinking about what your partner would like instead of what would make you feel great.
9. You actually start to enjoy the constant criticism, because you think, �What doesn�t kill me will make me stronger.�
10. You start speaking to your husband through his secretary so you don�t have to tell him things you�re afraid might upset him.
11. You start lying to avoid the put-downs and reality twists.
12. You feel as though you can�t do anything right.
13. You frequently wonder if you�re good enough for your lover.
14. Your kids start trying to protect you from being humiliated by your partner.
15. You feel hopeless and joyless.