My wife wants a divorce and I want to save my marriage... she is not willing to do anything to save the marriage.. we are separated and live in separate apt. this is the 3rd. marriage for both... She is Mexican with 3 children (14,16 & 18) I have two children (12 & 14) our children get along very well. We have only been married 10 months.. by marrying my wife ***edit*** I helped her get her temporary visa (2 years) once the two years is up and it helps a lot if we are still married then she can get her permanent visa... The reason for my wife wanting to separate is due to me and my angry outburst and she claims I have treated her badly in the last 5 months. (she is correct I have... not purposely ).. ***edit*** DW last month told me that we were separated and that the marriage is dead... but could we stay married until she got her permanent visa (1 1/2 from now) I truly believe that DW married me because she loved me and not the paper (visa).

I have for the last month been seeing a therapist once a week to help me with my angry outburst... and I also started taking Wellburten to help calm me down (it works) it give me those few extra seconds to think..

What I find very frustrating is my wife's refusal to tray and save the marriage... She said that she has already given me a few chances and she will not give me anymore (DW says 80% of me is this wonderful person but the 20% that yells and treats her meanly she can not be with) ... I don't disagree with the fact that she has given me 2 chances before to stop my outbursts... and each time I promised I would not do it again... well I did do it again... I have tried to explain to DW that this time things would be different because I'm really doing something to stop my outbursts , while before it was just me saying .. I'll stop..

My wife is obstinate lady... and if feel is will be very difficult for her to change her mind...

A little more back ground... She was physically & verbally abused by her father when she was you.. until the day she told him no more (18 years old) DW is 45 and I'm 53...

I love my wife very much and she deserves to be treated with love and respect by me... I completely understand and agree and I believe that her leaving me.. Was the wake-up call I needed to really want to change my behavior..

As I said we live in separate apt. due to our children go to different school districts ... we were going to look for a place to all live together but that is not in the plans now..

I have tried to speak with her and convince her to not give up on the marriage but all my efforts have just the opposite effect.. she has asked that we have time apart meaning very little contact no phone call, visits, txt.. the only exception is for her children and my children to see each other.. (drop off & pick-up)

I was not able to give her this one month break... I txted & called her... one day not sure what happened between her and I but most likely she continued to turn down all my suggestions to "JUST TRY" and fix our marriage.. if it doesn't work then OK ..I would also add that since we have two years that we need to say married it only makes sense just to try... She adamantly does not agree... So like a little child I got angry and Un-FaceBook her as my wife on my FB... (stupid and childish I know) as soon as I did it (30 min) I wanted to fix my stupid mistake and ask her to accept me as her husband on FB... she said no she would not do that... that was the consequence's for my actions... I tried several more times over the next few days to get her to change her mind... she would not and has not.... So what did I do next... (I was extremely hurt and sad because she wouldn't do this for me) that I got angry and mean, spiteful and txted her some not so nice messages.. (she is a very beautiful woman... and I said she was a perfect example of the saying beauty is on skin deep.. I also said that she was only using me for the papers and that I was going to file for divorce, you get the point.. I was a jerk to her well I was more than that!!) I also posted on her FB account under a photo of us that we were separated... (we had agreed not to make our troubles public... )

The next day I apologized to her for all stupid childish actions ..

I texted her and asked her if she loved me... she answered the following : I love you but I can not let you treat me the way you treat me. Im turning off my phone, please stop txting....



So you see I have a very difficult task in-front of me ... or maybe an impossible task ... of being able to save my marriage. Any ideas, suggestions, advise... help you can offer.. Do you think there is any chance to save it... she refuses to even think of such a thing... because I have treated her badly for the last 5 months and I continue to do the same... she told me today that even if I had treated her well these last months (separated) that she still would say the same thing that our marriage is dead with no chance of ever fixing it... she want me to be happy with me and my life and wants the best.. but she will not be a part of if.



So can you help me.... please tell me the truth.. what are my chances to recue my marriage.... I lover dearly.. I know I do some very stupid thing that would say I don't but that is not true I love her very much and respect her... and I don't want to lose her but I'm doing just that... help me get her back if that is possible.... what are my chances of that happening?

Please read these.
Angry Outbursts
Angry Outbursts #1

Welcome to Marriage builders. Glad you found yourself here and sorry for the troubles that you are facing. Please know this place is very slow on the weekends as most of the contributers are out with their spouses and families filling in their UA time (UA=undivided attention: see the policy of undivided attention in the emotional needs section of the navigation here).

You mention your seperated. That will make it difficult to meet your wifes emotional needs. You mention you have angry outbursts, well that is an issue you will NEED to sort out before your wife will feel safe. Angry outbursts do A LOT of damage to our love banks and should be avoided at all costs.

Check out this link and listen to the radio clips. I also bet your angry outbursts are anxiety related. A biofeedback device (talked about in the radio clips) may help you learn to control your anxiety and teach you to remain calm in the face of stress. It helped me a lot.

Link to MB anger 101 thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602#Post2603602

Read all you can here. Familiarize yourself with the basic concepts. Once monday comes more help will be here.

MNG

Welcome to MB, blake.

I'm not surprised that she has refused to go back to you. Anger alone can destroy a marriage more quickly and securely than anything else.

If you've been going to "therapy' for anger management and yet you were able to compose spiteful messages and actually press "send", then the anger management "therapy" is not working (duh). That was the proof your wife needed that you are good at talking and making promises, but you are not doing the concrete work that it takes to ensure that there is no more anger towards her - ever. if you couldn't keep hold of your temper while threatened with divorce and saying that you wanted her back and would do anything, what will your behaviour be like when you are living together with five teenagers in a blended family and with the normal stresses of life? That's what she thinks, and who could blame her?

What you can do is find a proper anger management class that focuses on re-training your behaviour so that angry outbursts disappear altogether. An anger management group will keep you accountable to other people for your behaviour - rather than giving you the privilege of sounding off about your wife in the privacy of the confidential therapy session.

When you say "What I find very frustrating is my wife's refusal to tray and save the marriage�" - that sounds a little bit angry and demanding to me, right there. Your wife has every right to leave you and refuse to try and save the marriage. Without any kids together, and with only 10 months married, 5 of them bad, she would do well to leave a bad situation very quickly, before you become more entangled.

You need stop the demands and the anger at her refusal to consider reuniting. You need to court your wife while separated and remove the pressure altogether for her to reunite with you. You need to show her that your behaviour has changed. You wooed her once and must do the same to woo her again, but of course, without any angry outburst about anything, ever again.

Another good article.
How to Negotiate When You're an Emotional Person

SugarCane: Thank you for all your advice ... Its good to hear somebody else's view on the problem... I think you are absolutely right... I don't thing the therapist is the right place for me... anger management group may be mush better I have looked in my town for one but I have not been able to find one...

You need to buy a bio-feedback device right now, and use it all the time. Brainy will post a link in a minute! She's that wonderful.

Thanks I listened to the raid program on anger ... good info.. I'll look into Bio-feedback device... not really sure what they do or how they work... I looked some up but not sure I understand how they help..do you need to carry this device with you all the time?

Dr Harley (owner of this website, who created the Marriage Builders programme; you should read all the articles he has written. They are free on this website. Learn how "love busters" such as angry outbursts destroy marriage) posted this on the private forum, available to people who sign up for the online course:

You keep the machine with you all day and try to control its measurements by learning how to relax in stressful situations.

This is what you should be aiming for:


Read the full article here: Angry Outbursts

In this article is where Dr. Harley talks about the biofeedback.

Did you read these?

Also the anger management 101 that Mr.NiceGuy posted? Listen to the clips?

Here is a link to a youtube video on how the biofeedback device gsr2 works. It measures galvanic skin response which is the first response to stress and represents your anxiety. This video shows its function with an add on plugged into it. Without it the machine makes a high pitched noise and you control it by relaxing your mind and body and then keep pushing up the sensitivity dial to learn to deepen your relaxation.

Link to gsr2 biofeed back device -

Example when I got mine (everyone uses it from time to time to check and or practice anxiety control) I would be sitting with it relaxing and focusing on the sound to drop the pitch and my wife or kids could say the word "christmas" for example and the machine would show my response to it by sending the pitch noise higher.

Great tool and once your learn to recognize the signals in your body you it gets easier to control and you use it less and less.

MNG

How do I remove all the pressure when as you say I'm trying to woo her back? She knows that I want to repair our marriage and want her back... wont that alone be pressure on her... and can I recover my marriage after what I did.. is that possible., anything is possible but is there a good chance that I can is really my question.
I know that you should never get children involved in marriage problems, but in our case they know what is happening and why She asked for the separation... her children know because I told them in front of her what I had done and told them how sorry I was for it and that I'm taking steps to change and that I want our family back together... her children would like to see us back together they have told me that... The middle son told me that there was 0 chance of Her & I getting back together I asked him why and he said because she made her decision .. meaning that once she makes a decision she will not change her mind.... That scares me and has me feeling extremely anxious.. like a cat on a hot tin roof.. I feel time is my enemy that the more time I let go by the less chance I have of saving my marriage... My children also know exactly what has happened and understand that this was my fault but they are also disanointed in her for not wanting to try... my boy (14 years old) said to me yesterday how can she just leave us.. just like that.. I didn't know what to say because I think the same... He then told me that he is going to talk to her sons and ask them what they all can do to get her to give this marriage another try.. I told him that he should not do that.. but he told me that he is going to do it because it is important to him.. truthfully I think that if the boys (hers and mine) talk to her and tell her that they would like to see us together and that she should take a risk on me because they are willing themselves to take a risk on me.... that she will listen to them and that is the best chance to save our marriage.
I don't know how I feel about them don't this... she may think that I put the kids up to this... she may agree to give us a chance but carry resentment that she was pressured to do this and that resentment will come out at some point and kill the marriage or it could work and she & I could have a great marriage.... ( we are assuming that I have been able to get my anger under control and have learned how to always treat her well)
What are your thoughts ? any suggestions?

Do you need two people to save a marriage (like mine).. were it is so easy to step away.. because we have no common children and really never lived together... Someday (more than less )my situation seems hopeless, I feel hopeless, I feel defeated, I feel that there is nothing I could do will stop her from divorcing me... That thought or maybe reality make me so sad, I really don't what to lose this wonderful women... I don't want to let go because I believe we really can have a great marriage if given the chance... Her leaving me has made me look at myself and want to change.. I'm a much better person than what I have shown in the last 5 months.. I hate that person I have been with her at times.. (hate, hate, hate) Also her putting the line in the sand ... I don't know if I can explain what that did to me.. it forced me to know, understand for the first time actually "see" that there is a line that you can't cross with people.. but my wife...that is just not acceptable.. I was forced to see that line but I know now that I would not cross it... I have experienced the pain and consequences of crossing that line... and like to train a dog not to pee in the house .. I learned not to cross that line...
It all seems to late ... and then my brain kicks in and says it is never to late and smart people do change their mind and she is absolutely a smart person, so she if given evidence should be able and willing to change her mind... but then I think "willing" to change her mind... I'm scared that she will not allow herself to change her mind.. she has told me many time that she will never put herself in a situation like that again.. and that no matter how much progress I make... someday a year from now, 3 years from now.. I will lose my temper and she doesn't want to be there for that... I don't agree with that thinking because if you can go six months or a year with out losing your temper then you have learned a new behavior and how to handle anger in a better way...

I have a question.. I'm reading on other post something I thought of before and that is because my wife and I have no common children that it is easier to separate/divorce.. that is just the reality of matter.. My questions is should I mention this fact to my wife (she is the one that separated from me) that in someway that it is not fair to me or the relationship to be less worry of effort because we don't have children in common... I mean should the love for each other be a reason two fight to save the marriage.. We do have children just not children in common.. I feel cheated because we don't have children in common.. that our marriage is worth less that the love we have is less.. not in my eyes not in her eyes... that the reason to save the marriage is just not a strong... well that is not right... its two people that love each other and that should be what is worth fighting for... also what are we teaching our children if we don't fight... that its ok to just walk out on a relationship at the first sign of trouble... that some marriage are more important than other... just quite .. If I mention this fact that because we don't have children it is easier to separate..do you think it will carry any weight and make her think again...

Brain hurts, not sure what you are offering... are you telling me that there is to much pain to even try to save the marriage.. that it is not worth it to try... ? I don't understand why you would say something like that.. no advise just give up... yes the is pain and hurt but that doesn't mean we have to give-up..... or does it?

You see, this attitude - the underlined - is a huge problem. It is disrespectful of you to hold this attitude towards your wife and it will do nothing to attract her back to you.

In a post yesterday, you said much the same thing; that you were angry that she could "just give up on you like that" or similar words.

It seems to me when you say things like this (or agree silently with your son that that it is incredible that she can leave you "just like that" - agree that it is wrong, in other words, for her to leave you 'just like that") that you haven't begun to accept that you drove you wife away with your anger and that she has left you because you made her stop loving you. You have not begun to accept that it is entirely her right to walk away from a disrespectful, angry, verbally abusive husband and to stay far away from you for good. She is protecting herself from any possibility of further abuse, and everyone posting to you on this website would say that she is right to do so.

As I said yesterday, not only did you take time to compose and send what sounds like an angry message to her on FB, you composed and sent several of them! You did not control yourself and think about how that would affect her, and how it would affect your chances of recovery when she was already finished with you.

Sending abusive messages to your wife is scumbag behaviour of the highest order and I see exactly why she would not give you a second glance.

So, if your kids and hers decide to talk to her about recovery, the one thing they, and you, must not do is convey any sort of message that implies that she is wrong not to give you another chance, or that she is unreasonable to give up "just like that". It was not "just like that" to her; this was a new husband who only weeks before was madly in love with her, but who just after the wedding began his campaign of angry outbursts and disrespectful, hurtful, cutting language.

If you let any of the children, or you, convey the message, however subliminally, that she is being unreasonable, that will be the last you ever hear of her, and that's as it should be.

You need to court her and woo her and show her changed behaviour over time. There has not been time for you to show a change since yesterday when you first posted. If you or the kids go to her with pressure to reunite now, because "you have changed" when you really haven't - not yet - you will damage things even further.

Your wife is not the one who should be under pressure; you are. As yet, you don't have a bio-feedback device and you haven't been in an anger management group for at least six months.

You need to learn about Disrespectful Judgements - one of the "love busters" that Dr H identifies here, and work on eliminating these entirely from your thoughts about your wife. She isn't doing anything wrong. You did the wrong and you need to put it right.

This whole post is one long disrespectful judgement of her for wanting to leave you. Do not say a word of this to her.

In fact, it isn't she who said anything about not having children in common; it is we on this forum who said that without the strong motivation of shared children, there is very little incentive for a newlywed to work on a marriage that has broken down. We said that, not she, so don't you say anything to her that assumes her motives or thoughts.

But if she had said anything to you about not having kids with you, you would be disrespecting her to tell her she is wrong to think like that. You would be disrespecting her BIG TIME to tell her that she owes you and the kids the sacrifice of putting herself in the lion's den with your anger and abuse, ever again, for your and their sakes.

We told you about this only to show you that mammoth task you face of attracting her back. She does not have the ties to you, after six months of marriage - a third marriage no less - and no kids, that a long-term first marriage with kids places on spouses.

While we're on the subject of third marriages, can you tell us how yours and her first two marriages ended?

I can't see anything that BrainHurts wrote that makes you ask this. A far as I can see, she posted links about anger and the bio-feedback device. What did she say that makes you ask this?

My first marriage I married because she/we got pregnant and I thought it would be the correct thing to do.. I didn't love her but that was not the question... so we got married.. that lasted 5 years.. she remarried and her and I get along very well.. not best bodies but are nice to each other.. My second wife 10 years after my 1st. divorce .. we lived together and again she got pregnant (didn't learn) on a vacation trip to Vegas with our son (2 years old at the time ) we just decided to marry..so we did.. She is a artist and really had very little time for our children (we have 2 boy & girl now 11 & 14 years old) and me... she was always traveling to NYC and when she was home she would spend more time on her art or with the art community than with us... I also was not in-love with her ever.. but I did like her...anyway I had enough of her putting us 2nd in her life so I divorced.. The children are with me 60 to 70% of the time now...
As for Chris, I married her because I absolutely loved her..
We also had money troubles.. lack of money (not an excuse)but that put a lot of pressure on me... I could not provide her and our children all I wanted.. and one time I had very little money in my pocket and Chris and one of her boys (we were coming back from a football camp)wanted to stop at a restaurant to get something to eat... I didn't have the money for all of us to eat (I didn't tell them that) so I said well lets stop a McDonald .. we got off the exit and we could not find it after 10 04 15 min of driving... Then Chris suggested that we stop at this restaurant I lost my cool and told them that it was because of not being able to find Mcdonalds but that was a lie I lost my temper because I was ashamed I didn't have the money to take them to didn't... (several weeks later Chris told me that she had brought money for dinner) so I lost my temp and scared her for nothing.. (beside the shame)
I'm not this angry abusive guy ... ( I may be abusive ) but I don't yell to control her or anybody.. I yell because I grew up in a house were dad yelled.. very little self control.. I believe it to be more childish behavior than abuse.. but I do understand that yelling at anybody and getting in their face is abuse.. because they are scared by me... The vengeful mean side that I displayed to Chris in my Txt. is new in our relationship.. I never did that before... I have been vengeful in the past to other people...so I know that I have that in me.. it's just another arm of my anger..
I understand that I have done many wrong, threating and mean things in a short amount of time to Chris... I wish I could deny it but I can't .. I want to stop doing all these hurtful things to her and I want to rescue my marriage.. I think I will learn way to stop doing what I'm doing.... but I don't think I will ever rescue my marriage I don't think Chris will ever allow herself to give me another chance..

Thank you for replying. I think you should edit your post and take out your wife's real name.

Why has she been married 3 times? What happened to her first two marriages?

Has their been infidelity in any of your or her previous marriages?

You say that my wife has stopped loving me ... That is not true she told me yesterday that she loved me very much but that she could not allow me to treat her the way I have...

So I believe her when she says she loves me.. and because she loves me I believe I can save this marriage.. (I don't know if I can I like to think that I will be able)

I understand the yelling and angry outburst - I do that and I have to stop... got it

What I don't see or have a good handle is when she says I treated her bad... The one think I will put on this column of treating her bad is that I'm sarcastic at time... I have on a few occasion asked her why she has this puss on her face.. and truthfully I can think of anything else that would fall under I treated her badly.. I think just the opposite is true I think I have treated her very well... (I know the yelling is not treating somebody well)
So would it be a mistake on my part to ask her for examples of what she says is me treating her badly... not to argue with her not to know what I need to change... maybe I'm doing something that I'm nor aware of that is hurting her...

The restaurant story is worrying on many levels; for one thing, it appears that she does not have a full picture of your financial position and that you were able to hide your income level from her. This is wrong in marriage and should never have happened. Your wife should have been aware of all your income and expenses at the time she married you (and you hers). She might have decided not to marry you (or she might have gone ahead), but if there had been full transparency between you about money, that incident could never have happened as it did.

How you interpret your anger and its causes it absolutely irrelevant. The point is that you did what you did to your wife and she hated it and left you. She does not care, and neither should she, that it comes from your upbringing or that you see it as more childish than abusive. Your anger is an attack on her and she has no incentive to put up with it for one second.

I can't tell you whether or not she will give you another chance, but eliminating anger as a response to anything for the rest of your life is the only way to attract her back, and keep her. You must start there, and we have given you Dr Harley's advice on anger management groups and bio-feedback devices. You must use this advice and stop talking about why you get angry and how it isn't that bad really. Your anger is as bad as murder; it killed your marriage. Stop rationalising it and get to work stopping it for good.

Your wife might stick to her guns and stay away from you, but you will not know whether you can recover your marriage unless you get rid of your anger, and then court her and romance her.

Your posts sound frantic and anxiety ridden. Your gunna have to get better control of yourself. Your past is no excuse to yell. Anger for any reason is unacceptable. Until you get control of your anxiety your wife will not feel safe.

Have your read the basic concepts of marriage builders? Do you understand how many love units you have withdrawn with this absusive lovebusting pattern? You sir are unsafe in this mental state. Your wife likely feels you might become violent during one of your outbursts. Your going to have to let her have some space and time. Tell her your going to take an anger management course and ask her if she is willing to possibly date once that ball is rolling.

Did you see the biofeedback link I posted and understnad how it measures your anxiety?

MNG

It would not be a mistake if you can do it respectfully, and accept the answer without a shred of arguing or disagreeing with what she says. Can you do that?

You have already shown me that you discount what she says when you tell me you know you are sarcastic at times but also say that you don't know what makes her say you treat her badly.

Sarcasm is horrible in marriage. Spouses who do it usually have no idea how caustic their behaviour is to the spouse who is in receipt of it.

Can you ask your wife respectfully about your love busters, and accept what she says without challenging it in the slightest?

Her first marriage she was young and I think she just wanted to leave her house.. the second marriage (the one that all the children came from) I'm not really sure, he stayed away a lot from the family at the golf club would come home late did not like doing things with the family ..he had one favorite son the middle one and the other two he ignored and did not like the oldest.
She did cheat on him once and she told me that she left so bad about herself that she would never do that again..

I have not had an affair or cheated on any of my relationships.

She just got her real first job her in the USA she will be a sales person for a trucking company .. she will be taking clients out to lunch, dinner and sometimes they will be over night trips.
As I said my wife is a very beautiful woman and I know men will be making passes at her.. it we had a real marriage I would not worry so mush about this because she would be committed to the marriage 9I couldn't like the fact that men are making passes at her but I would trust her ) but know that our marriage is dead as she claims I worry a lot about this... that she will find somebody and that will be the end of us... so much easier you start something new because there is no baggage and try to fix it with the ex-hus. She said she would not have any type of relationship with anybody for the 2 years we need to be married and she would not got out on dates or anything... she said this is the furthest thing from her mind and that she went 4 years with our have sex with anybody after she divorced from 2nd husband...
You will tell me I have no right or control over what she does, and that is true,,... but that doesn't help me feel any differently.. about what it out there..

My wife new everything about my financial state I was not hiding anything and she new everything... I never hid anything for her about anything.. I was always up front about everything. and she chose to marry me .. even though I had no money.

I will ask about how I treated her badly... would it be better if I did that in a email so not to argue with her.
I put sarcasms under the column of things I did to treat her badly

So in your opinion how should the kids talk to her about wanting this marriage to work and her coming back to it and making a home for all of us.

How do they ask or express themselves to her?

You are absolutely right my anxiety is sky high... I did look at the post you suggested on Biofeedback... does it really work and it teach you how to control your anger ?

I own one without the meter device. (Was extra money) yes it works. It doesn't "teach" you to control your anger per say. More like helps you recognize where you are at. Shows you how quickly your body responds to anxiety before you even realize it. You teach yourself to recognize the inner feelings created wh you have anxiety. Not all anxiety is bad but when anxiety is taking control it makes us temporarily insane. When anxiety throws you over the top or your riding near the edge of almost not being able to handle stressful situations rationaly and respectfuly you become a threat to yourself and your wife and kids.

Its not an easy device to use. But is a valuable tool in helping your body relax under stress. Riding too close to the edge of a breakdown is very unhelpful. Infact your wife probably feels your anxiety level before you even know your anxious. Women are very intune with feelings and often feel and respond to anxiety soooner than men do.

Some signs of anxiety are : cold hands and feet, a knot in your stomach. Racing obsesive negative thoughts some of which you might often feel you can't control and believe it or not headaches.

Anxiety will lower your immune system by 50% right off the topcouple that with whatever other stress is going on and your immune system drops even further. Anxiety will create all sorts of ailments and women get health problems faster than men due often because they are emotional creatures so are effected by it a lot sooner. (Partly why dr.harley says plan A for wom only like 2 weeks and plan a for men is 6 months - year.

If your not emotionally stable.. Your wife will never be. Your the leader of your home and being in control of your emotions and anxiety will lead your entire home to a similar state. Feelings follow actions. You need to do the right actions so everyones feelings can follow yours.

MNG

Edit: if you get one. Mark the "zero" spot with a pen next to the sensitivity dial. The closer to "zero" you are the closer to being out of control you are. I marked mine and when I first started using it I was at a 2 or just under. I have worked my way up to 3.5 in just over a year. Just that amount has made a huge difference in how I act and respond under stressful situations. The first time I used the device I was medetating with it and slowly adjusting the sensitivity up and boom I passed out and fell asleep trying to relax and up the sensitivity.

Edit #2: notice in the video where the guy says "all I do is tell her I'm going to ask her a personal question and it spikes up. Well each time he never even asks the question he just mentions he's going to. Each time he said he's going to but never does the meter responds less and less.

Thanks I get on of those biofeedback devices ... 6 months to a year... oh boy

Its not easy... But nothing worth fighting for ever is. And it could be less time for you. Don't beat yourself up over slow progress if its not happening as fast as you like. You likely have an anxiety disorder from your upbringing always uncertain of when someone is going to yell and have over time trained yourself to act the same. It took you years to get where you are. Its going to take a while to retrain your neuropathways to respond differently. You likely won't ever get the sensitivity dial up to 9 heck or even 5. What matters is where you are at and getting better at recognizing your own state. At 3.5 I feel totally calm. I may never get to 5 myself but the improvements I have made are huge!

I have another question... and I know that I should not have these question and that they are probably no possible correlation between one and the other... (and fairness has nothing to do with it) but the question still runs around my head.
If I'm suppose to trust her that she will not have any type of relationship with anybody for the two remaining years we have to stay married .. And the correct thing for me to do is to stay married to her so she can get her permanent visa ... why is it completely unreasonable that I would think that she should try to save this marriage, to trust me (6 months from now or year from now) enough to believe I have changed and that she will not be in any emotional danger at my hands... I know this sound like it not fair that I have to do all the giving and all the trusting and she does not...
Did I give up or lose all rights to expect equal or fair treatment because of my angry outbursts... did I lose right to think that she should be able to trust me... I know I did wrong.. but does that mean I have to put all what I think is right and fair aside... and what is wrong with having expectations of people.. this is so frustrating ...
Wouldn't it be correct to expect her to want to rescue our marriage... is it wrong for me to have these expectations.

do you take the biofeedback with you when you go out.. I would like it if this device would give me a electric shock every time my anxiety went up... so I would know instantly... kind off like POVLOV dog.

No I do not take it with me when I go out. I use it at home when I am relaxing. Many things in life will give you anxiety. Its how you manage it when it comes.

On this same subject: In the year that Chris & I have been together not only did I fall in love with her.. I also fell in love with her three boys.. I taught the to hunt and fish and I went to all their shorting events and I'm as proud of the as if there were my own... Know they are taken away from me, not that I can see them but it is not the same, they are not in my day to day life, I not get to see them playing soccer .. This hurts like hell to ... I fell like fall in love with my kids and I'm so glad you guys are so close and then the next day they are taken away.. the kids is also a reason that I feel she and I should want to fix our marriage and not just throw it away.. like she has decided to do..

When the bank robber is sorry he robbed the bank. Should he not still go to jail even though he might still be a nice guy 80% of the time and even though the bank got their money back?

MNG

Just because YOUR in love doesn't mean she's in love. The reason YOU feel those things is because SHE meets YOUR needs. Meanwhile she's NOT feeling "in love" with you because more withdrawls have been made than depsoits in her love for you. You might meet her needs but the withdrawls are greater.

MNG

It all sound futile why even try to fix the marriage when the other person keeps telling you the marriage is dead..

You don't take this on to manipulate her to come back. You take it on to make YOU a better person regardless of the outcome. THEN she might see the changes in you because YOU want them. Not her.

Stop trying to force her or manipulate her to see things YOUR way. Let her see them on her own. You invite her to company you on your best days and focus on making her happy. And go from there. If you don't put your heart in it for you then she will feel your trying to control her.

Edit: put it this way. Would you date yourself right now? Would you marry a guy like you if you were some other woman looking at your behaviour from an objectionable point of view? Think about that really hard for a bit. Examine your behaviour.

MNG

She still loves me .. she told me so two days ago..
she wrote: I still love you but I can not let you to treat me the way you treat me...

Could I read that there is some hope in that statement?

Thanks read both... I wish I was in either of there place... wife want to fix marriage...but my wife does not

I hear what your saying but doesn't prison suppose to rehabilitee the prisoner and once he does this time society forgive is wrong doings and give him another chance... no

As long as you continue to deflect and minimize like this, I would tell your wife to stay far away from you. You are not safe.

What have you done to get into a good anger management program that teaches relaxation techniques?

Hi, blake. Welcome to Marriage Builders.

A wife not being willing to give a marriage another chance is a VERY typical Marriage Builders situation. Frequently it involves a lot of work for the husband to eliminate his love busters and learn to meet his wife's emotional needs.

Read and reread and understand Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts material, particularly the material about the Love Bank. Your account in your wife's Love Bank is going to dictate how she feels about you and how she treats you. When your balance is extremely in the red, she will hate you, and will be totally unwilling to recover your marriage.

You can change that. You can't change that by persuading her to give you a chance. But you can change that by learning to be extremely good at making love bank deposits and avoiding love bank withdrawals. So, for example, having a conversation with her about how you think she should give you another chance - that will be a love bank withdrawal. It will affect her feelings toward you negatively and will actually make her LESS likely to want to recover your marriage.

You will have to approach this with an extreme respect for her feelings and her desire to end the marriage. Instead of contradicting those feelings and desires, you will have to work on making massive love bank deposits every time you are in contact with her - and you must avoid withdrawals at all costs! Your balance in her love bank is so far in the red that you cannot afford any more withdrawals. So:

* Do not debate her desires, feelings, or opinions. Don't express frustration at her choice. Don't talk about your belief that she should forgive you and give you another chance.
* Don't fight with her at all, ever, about anything. Fighting will be like having a nuclear war - it'll kill all of your chances. You will not win that way at all.
* Don't do anything that SHE would feel is demanding, disrespectful, or angry. You won't be able to debate her feelings on this, so you'll have to let her feelings be the judge. No yelling, no disrespect, no judgment or debate of her perspectives, no telling her what she should do (demanding).

Do you think you can do this? If so, there is a good chance you can recover your marriage.

Thanks for chiming in marcos and Prisca. My posts were beginning to feel redundant.

Prisca,
I don't believe I'm minimizing what I did and I take full responsibility for how I hurt my wife..the only thing I was trying to say is that my abuse (not that it makes a difference) was not one of trying to control my wife and what she thought or did and I have never belittled or made her fell that her opinion didn't matter, in fact I followed her advice most of the time... my outburst / yelling was out of frustration be being hurt by something she said, did or misunderstand what she meant.. it was a knee jerk reaction on my part.. Completely wrong on my part.. and yes my yelling did scare her "one" time .. So I know what I did was absolutely wrong.. just saying that it was never done because I wanted to control her, intimidate her, ridicule, minimize her opinion... I admire and respect my wife very much... she is a wonderful women and does not deserve to be spoken lit that...

I'm seeing a therapist for my anger and taking Wellbutren to calm me down.. It has worked partially (I have not most my temper with my children in 1 1/2 months... I have time to think before I say anything and that has made all the difference in the world.. As with my wife..we never lived together so I can't say how I would react to things... but my frustration, sadness and hurt that I feel because she has no interest in even entertaining working on our marriage and saying it is dead... I have not handled that well... I have sent her mean and angry txted in response to her complete refusal to do anything to save this marriage. I looked into Angry Mgt. classes but the next one doesn't start until April...

Markos,
Thank you for all you advise .. I know it is good advice and I will try to follow it...

I would like to add something to my story: the second to last fight she and I had was on 12/24 and that was me yelling..after that fight our outburst by be she asked to have three days alone ... after those three day we got back together ... I slept over about 10 days later on a Sunday night, on Monday morning I woke up and she and I talked over morning coffee about what things had to get done that week .. (install carpet in apt. so I can get it rented, fix a doors and things like that) we agreed on everything and I asked her if she could make a list of them as she was sitting at the desk and had paper and pen 9plus I had ADHD and lists help me.. I did not know I had ADHD at this time -- I found out later 2 weeks) she made the list and gave it to me.. I told that I thought it was nice how we were communicating and working as a team... she agreed.. then for some reason I asked her that I hoped that her doing the list for me was done like something you do for your husband (the team) and not done like a Mother does a list for her son... to which she said that it was like a list a Mother does for her son... I said come on I hope that is not how you are looking at this and she said that it was.. (mother/son) I wanted to avoid any fighting so again I said don't say or think that because that makes me feel terrible and there is a big difference a wife making a list for her husband 9team) and a mother making a list for her son... She said there is no difference and I again told her there was a huge difference.. she stuck to her opinion and I got offended I got some of my clothes I had at her place and put them in a bag and when my boy was ready to go to school I took my bag and left.. Later that day she txted me and said that we should talk... I txted that we had nothing to talk about until she apologized for what she said.. she wouldn't apologize and just said we should meet and talk this other... me like a jack [censored] said no.... The next day I txted her and said that we should meet and that I wanted to work things out between us... We met that night and I felt she was going to call our marriage over so I said to her going to get a divorce and she said yes... and that was how we are were we are today.. separated and divorce will be 2 years from know....
When we spoke a few days later she said she was there that night to try and make peace and work on the marriage but when I said if she was going to divorce she said ... Ok / yes... She told me that what broke the camels back was me not wanting to talk the day of the fight...
Does anything said here (above) make any difference or shed a new light on the dynamics of our relationship and how or if it can be fixed.
Now she will not even entertain working on the marriage and one of her boys told me there is 0 chance that she will change her mind... I asked why: and he said because she made a decision ( I guess once she makes a decision she doesn't change her mind)..
Any thoughts... any advice

Ypu should be in plan A.
Avoid love busters and try to make love bank deposits.
Are you trying to meet her emotional needs?

In addition to this, know that it takes a lot of time for Plan A to work. Wives need to see that their husbands have made real change. Keep making deposits without expectations of reciprocation because I would guess that right now she doesn't trust you have changed and has checked out. You have to be the one that builds the bridge.

Don't involve her Son.

As for her sticking to her decisions, she also decided to Marry you and said she wad committed to you, didn't she?

She can change her mind once again.

But, you must not have ANY angry outbursts and eliminate ALL of your Love Busters.

Don't ever bring up the topic of Divorce unless you want to pressure her into making an assertive stance for herself because of being backed into a corner.

And, learn from your exchange with her regarding WHY she helped you out by making a list for you.

It doesn't matter WHY, but only mattered that she did. You should just validate her efforts and be graciously thankful, without going overboard.

LTL

blake, in addition to continuing to reread through the Basic Concepts, I recommend you follow the procedure in that article that described the biofeedback device. This is going to be very important for you because you are so emotional:

How to Negotiate when One of You is an Emotional Person

Right now you are so emotional that when you read our posts you are getting emotional and responding with a lot of justifications. We can tell that means you are really only receiving a slim percentage of our message. I recommend re-reading your entire thread, without responding to us at all, and making a todo list of things you need to do. Then work through the todo list. If you focus too much on telling us stuff it will prevent you listening to what you need to hear.

That is what I am telling you, friend. This is not going to change for quite some time. I am describing to you the procedure to change this. It is not surprising that she feels this way. It's not news to me or anyone else on this thread, and it shouldn't be news to you.

If you want to change it, you are going to have to make a lot of changes:
* Get control of your emotions
* Make massive love bank deposits every day
* Avoid love bank withdrawals ENTIRELY

So? What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Here's the facts: you abused your wife with angry outbursts. Any attempt on your part to explain why you did it, or how you didn't mean it, is by default belittling to her. So stop it. Nobody cares why you abused her. SHE certainly doesn't care why. She just wants you to stop hurting her.

You are not going to get any credit for intentions.


And you are still abusing her.
She has every right to refuse to work on the marriage with you.

This----^

Good advice Marcos. Right now all I read is justifications.

Blake... Feelings FOLLOW actions. Do the actions we suggest and your feelings will eventually follow. Then those feelings will spill over to your wife if you engage her with a positive un expecting and changed attitude with a plan of just compensation for her.

You can do it! Slow down. Take a deep breath. We all know the agony you are experiencing one way or another and know what we are talking about.

MNG

---^ this right here set you up for a fail. You already knew the state she was in from your abuse.. Why would you throw more fuel on the fire. All you had to do was THANK her for the list and leave it at that. It doesn't matter what the context of the list was but you gave her ammo.



It how she is looking at it now but I bet she wasn't prior to your comment. (Which was very disrespectful btw)


You should have sucked up your pride and went and talked to her. You owe her BIG time for your outbursts. Of course she wouldn't appologize, the entire argument was your suggestion. You planted the thought and she went with it. Women are global thinkers.. This will float in her head until you SHOW her your capable of acting like a man. Men are to be the rock and her protector .. Unmoved for the most part but also soft to her concerns. She does not feel protected and your anxiety is destroying your cognitive thinking ability and causing you to have obsesive thoughts. Your going to need to get a grip on your emotions and become the rock for your wife. She sees no stability in you right now.


Again.. You shouldn't have said or called her out on the divorce issue. Should have tried to find a positive spin on your meeting. You got 2 years to prove to your wife you can man up and get a hold of yourself and learn to control ALL your emotions and anxiety. That will win her back. Slowly invite her out on dates with you and avoid negative relationship talk. Your wife likely has a high need for conversation so anything negative you say can and will be used against you at this point so avoid negativity while you work on your behaviour and change it FOR GOOD.

.... Next post for more

Of course she was there to fix things. I'm sure she still loves you. She just wants you to be the man she needs. Who will cherish her.. Protect her heart.. Not scare her.. Your emotions are scaring her. I'm sure if you give it some time.. Find some positive interactions to invite her to and find a way to spin everything positively. Don't overthink what she says or read into things too dep and say stuff like "so we are getting the divorce" and "do you do things for me as a mother to son or wife to husband" any negative spin she can go on she will at this point. So cut it out. Work on yourself to make PERMANENT changes that will show your wife your the rock she needs.. the protector she needs. The MAN of her dreams.

MNG

A whole bunch of verbal diarrhea pouring out of your mouth here.

From now on, evaluate everything you say to her (before you say it) with these measuring sticks:

"Better to remain silent and be though a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

"Put a bridle on thy tongue; set a guard before thy lips, lest the words of thine own mouth destroy thy peace... on much speaking cometh repentance, but in silence is safety." - William Drummond

Or, to sum both of these up:

LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!!!!

You must start thinking before you speak, and using a socially appropriate filter on your mouth.

blake, please go listen to today's Marriage Builders Radio broadcast - there is a lot of useful information there in today's show for a man hoping to win his wife back to the marriage. The show will repeat every hour until the new show tomorrow, so be sure and catch it before it is gone.

Here's the radio page:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Thank you one and all.... so I did another thing wrong yesterday: I told her that I had sabotage our relationship because I the I didn't deserve her.. that she was to good for me.. and that our fights had nothing to do with her .. I was shamed of myself for the financial mess my life was and sometimes i jumped on any little disagreement between us and made it much bigger that it actually was.. I also told her that I did this because I did not have the courage to face the reality that it was my fault (choice) to let me life get so messed up..
I guess I should keep thoughts likes this to myself and my therapist... She txted me stop saying your sorry and stop feeling sorry for yourself... I say this trying to help. I guess saying things like that does not make to manly or make me appear as her protector or rock.. makes me sound like a whinny little girl...

Yes, definitely.

LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!!!!!

Everything you say to her from now on needs to be for the strategic purpose of winning her back.

Do not say anything that does not have a strategic purpose.

This will help train you into controlling your mouth.

If it "feels good to say it", it is probably the wrong thing to say.

God I really don't know how to communicate with her.. I believe her and I were very close... that I could open up to her... I don't open up to anybody less..
Can I recover from this with her.. and not look like a whinny little girl..

Don't try to help.

Show her your new self restraint and focus instead.

Words mean nothing; there have already been too many of them.

You need to focus on the basics:
Make love bank deposits and avoid love bank withdrawls

So do I need to buy a book or program that will take me by the hand a teach me what to do and say.. I know I have to get the bio-feedback thing ... but what program should I get and how well does it work... and in your opinion do I have a better the 50/50 chance of winning my wife back? and how long will it take.. I hope not much longer than 6 months.. (to know that she will give the marriage and me another chance) then we will have to do more work.. or I will have to do more work

Trying to help (was her saying that to me)

How do I make love bank deposits if we don't live together and I don't have a chance to see her or go out with her..?

Dr. Harley says that as a general rule, men that keep the course stand good chances of winning their wife back.
As for books, have you read Dr. Harley's books?
I would start there so your information and training is compatible with this website

Sometimes borrowing a mindset from your professional life can help.

Would it help you to use the thought processes you would use if you were trying to win her as a customer?

Don't use any deceptive tactics, of course; just be your best you as if you were selling your suitability to her.

Everything you say needs to be with the goal of winning the "sale."

Be honest in everything, but find and live (for the rest of your life) your best behavior that would be worthy of someone staying in love with.

Focus on controlling the mouth and meeting her needs.

You can do it, but you must focus and you must start using common sense in your words.

If you look through the forums here, you will find similar cases. In one case, the husband started offering to shovel the driveway and watch the kids more often...and he is slowly rebuilding the relationship.

Harley says that in cases such as yours, she may only allow you to wash the windows. It wont make a lot of deposits but it will make a few....and then later she may let you make deposits through conversation etc ....where you can make massive deposits (after you retrain yourself how to converse with her)

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Hyper down, Blake. Getting her back is a process, not an event.

It will probably take several months of mature communications (without verbal lovebusting) coming from you to allow her to consider a second look.

Blake, another way to look at this is you didn't blow this with one event...it seems like you were finding creative ways to lovebust in nearly every conversation for a long time.

You won't build it back with one event, either.

Steady and strategic is the way to win her back.

And your strategy is:

a) To summarize, LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!! No one falls in love with receiving verbal diarrhea.

b) Try to make a lovebank deposit, no matter how small with every interaction. Seek out opportunities to make deposits.

A new member just made an awesome, concise statement in another forum that may help you:

"Think for tomorrow." - rit

I just listened to the radio show... good stuff.

I could not find the new post you mention from rit

It's in the dating forums.

A different poster is engaging in behavior that likely will not pay off long term, and rit makes the very impactful statement to "think for tomorrow".



http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785406#Post2785406

Today could be the first day that I respect her whishes and don't make contact with her (txt/call)... she wants a month with out contact... that doesn't sound like a women that is ever going to be looking to give the marriage a second chance... plus she said the both no contact was for my benefit..

Remember to hyper down. Patience wins this race. Don't be needing gratification (progress) in every "now".

I'll let others speak to the 30 day no contact problem, but this instant gratification outlook you have needs to change.

I would not be an expert in the no-contact area.

I know I wanted Stuebenville to move out for 6 months so our contact was limited to meeting needs and to avoid the day to day lovebusting that would not stop. He chose not to do that, and I did not enforce it because his tactics of avoiding it involved hurting the kids. The day to day lovebusting never changed, and you can see from my signature how that worked out.

HAD we done the 6 month separation, we might have a different status.

You need to not be in contact with her if you are going to lovebust her.

In our relationship, the lovebusting was similar to what you are doing. He simply would not control his words.

Blake, how often is it that you were drinking prior to verbally lovebusting her?

How often do you drink?

only once was I drinking when we had fight and that was 12/24.. and that was when I got in her face and she got scared of me.... I don't drink more and 1/2 a glass of wine a week...

What you might do during the 30 day no-contact period (if the MB experts here agree) is to send her a short note by mail every couple of days about something in your day that reminded you of her. This will show her that you are thinking of her, care for her and miss her. Once in a while you can include a Hershey's kiss, or other small thoughtful token, in the envelope.

Her no-contact request may be based on the hurtful back and forth in the mediums you use now (texting, talking on the phone). Perhaps a non-threatening note, where lovebusting back and forth is not possible, may be welcome.

Just a suggestion. Other MB veterans may be able to confirm if this is a good idea or not.

Excellent update. Great to hear.

So, you will never "drink" (I assume this was substantially more than 1/2 glass of wine) around her again, right? The "only once" that you did drink didn't turn out so well for you.

Drinking does a wacky thing with the filter on the mouth. Not good in your situation, obviously.

Sunnytimes, I'm not sure what you are saying to me when you write: A different poster is engaging in behavior that likely will not pay off long term

can you explain

We never talked about the not drinking after she separated.. as I said drinking has not been an issue... But on 12/24 it was a big issue and I'm sure was the cause for the way I acted.. I told myself a few weeks ago that if she and I got back together that I would not drink when we went out... I will drink at home.. but as I said at home I drink 1/2 of wine..

Dr. Harley advocates for no sex prior to marriage. This is not based on a religious philosophy but on the reality of how those relationships don't develop as well as the ones who abstain prior to marriage do.

Knowing all of the downsides of premarital sex, the other guy is engaging in premarital sex and had his very new girlfriend spend the entire weekend with him.

Rit posted on his thread to say "think for tomorrow".

Rit's comment is a perfect perspective for you in your situation, too. If you stopped to think before verbally lovebusting your wife about how what you say to her today would help (or hurt) your tomorrow, it would help you refrain better from verbally lovebusting.

Rit's statement is a good measuring stick for you to weigh your words with.

Good man! You saw the error and then made a wise decision.