I posted previously, but my post has been lost, so I'm starting a new thread. I'll give an overview of our history in the first section, then where we are now in the next section. I'll try to be concise, but, it's not my strength.

In November, when looking for a place for the three of us to have lunch, I found porn on my husband's cell phone with my dd14 looking over my shoulder. He admitted to it early in our marriage, but then would not answer when I asked him for the next several years - I didn't agree, but somehow hoped it was behind us, even though he remained very withdrawn and said meeting my EN's was heavy lifting for him and he felt I was demanding to ask for him to meet them and that something was wrong with me to have these needs. (I do have a history of some AO that I am working to correct.) I asked him to move out of our home the day I found the porn on his cell, which he did. Working to help DD14 heal from the search she saw, too (images were blurred, but words were not). The next few weeks involved 'coming clean' and I learned he was not only involved in porn on and off during our marriage, but also extensive lust, pretty much everywhere he went, most of the time, including our neighbor next door in a bikini one time, to which he masturbated to climax. I feel deeply betrayed, hurt and angry and that he 'visually/mentally' invited thousands of women into something that should have been sacred between the two of us, no one else. Given our discussion in his counselor's office Monday night, he's still trying to get his head around how this cheapened SF between us, instead of just for him. I told him he has broken my trust and while I believe we can build a better, stronger, wonderful marriage, it will never be the same as if he had never betrayed me.

Since d-day and clearing the air, we've had some bumps, the biggest being a misunderstanding in which he thought I was telling him to stop contacting me permanently, when I only meant for the night as things were escalating over email. Without discussing with me to clarify, he made a decision not to reconcile, told his daughter we were divorcing (who tells his ex everything, so we'd agreed not to tell ex-spouses this private info). Next day, he recommitted, but it has felt so impulsive and unstable to me and that on top of the lies/deceptions and 'lust infidelity', that he was also going to abandon the marriage next.

Additionally, there is a history with his daughter, in which she has come before me for RC, Af, IC, Ad and he's canceled on me to be with her, etc. He also told her early in our marriage that we decided to have children together (he knew I would not have married him without this agreement), but she felt he was too old and he changed his mind - no POJA to not have more children, but he decided. Work and other things also came before me and he's also shared a lot of personal info with his psychiatrist (female), who sees him for meds, not counseling and from what he tells me, she has been sympathetic to him, not me for years. He also says he gets his EN's filled at work, not home. I'd like to see this change to where I am meeting those.

Bottom line is that I feel he has had very poor boundaries in many areas to protect our marriage for most of our marriage. The combination of issues sometimes feels overwhelming to me.

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Currently, he's back at home about half the week and to be honest, we have made a lot of progress over the last four months (I'm rather surprised at times, how far we've come); although, we do still have a lot of work to do and changes we both need to make and things can still be kind of bumpy at times.

One of the challenges is that he goes through phases of being so committed and working hard on us, then withdrawing from me for a day or two... home, but withdrawn. There is significant history in his family, on his mom's side and he does suffer from depression, anxiety and OCD, as well as some sleep issues we're working on (CPAP and twitching in sleep). He recently said he thinks the withdrawal seems to come when he's working a lot of OT (12-14 hrs/wk or more), so he decided to cut his work hours back to 40-45/week so he is more emotionally available to me during UA time... very thankful for this! I was evaluated for cancer last year and had almost 2 feet of my small intestine removed - didn't find any tumors, PTL, but another problem and we don't know why. I'm still being followed for some medical issues that we think stem from neuro-endocrine problems.

One of the major improvements is that we are doing much better with conflict because we are using Dr. H's negotiation protocol and it WORKS!! He also asked me this past week after one of these if I felt better about the issue... I said I was glad we had POJA, but would have felt better if he apologized for being disrespectful to me... and he did! He's apologized more since d-day than probably our entire marriage... it's powerful in healing when he does this and consistently works with me on making lasting improvements!

We are in full agreement that MB will be our authority and we will fully follow this program. We just completed the online seminar and are working with a coach, who will discuss with Dr. Harley and guide us through the program.

Hi HealingGrace glad to see you back.

Does your H exercise?

How much UA time have you been getting?

Has he written you a list of EPs?

Thanks, BH, good to be back.

No, he usually does not exercise.

UA was mostly non-existent between us for years. Since d-day, it's been intermittent. Currently, we are in JA that he will create a 'template' schedule for us, present it to me for discussion/agreement. I will enter in computer calendar and he will be responsible for initiating weekly meetings to review UA time. We had 21 scheduled for this week... I'd like to get a binder, so we can use the worksheets and better track actual UA time.

EP's: He wrote up a 'battle plan' that included some things I'd not considered (mainly because I didn't know some areas where he'd given in to temptation in the past), but we still need to complete our discussion about my ongoing concerns in multiple areas so he can protect me from here forward.

One of them, for example, is I don't feel comfortable with him hugging other women and would prefer he keep a 3 feet distance. He said he's not sure if he can agree to that, gave several examples (working at desk together, in elevator, etc) and that hugs are not sexual, but more emotional... exactly why I am not comfortable with it. I think one can present themselves as 'available' for such behavior or 'not available'. I want him to have clear boundaries with women that protect me and our marriage. We may reach JA about this, but it's currently an unresolved issue.

The hugging is a flag. What married man thinks it's okay to hug other women that aren't blood relatives?

He does need to work on his boundaries.

Did he ever apologize to your DD14 for her seeing the porn? How is their relationship now?

I meant to be more specific (I'm tired and sick right now) that he was referring to a context in which women at work might want to hug him goodbye if he finds another job and is leaving on his last day there. Still... I prefer he not.

Yes, they met soon after in her counselor's office and he initiated the discussion, apologizing to her for that and a few other things. She was taken aback that he covered more than she thought he would and she had nothing left to bring up with him.

The tougher healing is between him and me. How do the BS's trust or feel safe/secure after the betrayals, blaming and deceptions?

Sometimes, when we're struggling and he's feeling "controlled" and I'm feeling uneasy about whether he will protect me from future betrayals and if this is secure for me or my dd (it feels unsafe to me and he thinks I'm trying to manipulate when I honestly don't feel secure, but he can't hear that, so doesn't grasp i need reassurance and becomes frustrated), it feels like such a huge mountain to climb and I'm so weary.

When just compensation has been given and you've replaced your now marriage with a MB marriage, it will get better.

You will replace past hurtful thoughts/feelings with new and romantic thoughts.

How? As your spouse demonstrates extraordinary care and fierce commitment tofollowing the POJA, gradually the following thought disappears.


In other words, you will feel safer when your husband learns to take consistent, measured action to protect you by respecting and accommodatingthe your sensitivities and feelings.

What would extraordinary care and fierce commitment to POJA look like?

What if he thinks he should decide what precautions are needed to prevent lust relapse and that I need to find a way to cope with my feelings/sensitivities on my own? What if he views my feelings/sensitivities as too extreme & it doesn't make sense to him or feels like heavy lifting to respect or accommodate them?

That's refusing to protect you and refusing to PoJA. If that happened, your response would be up to you. Dr Harley would recommend separation.

Under PoJA and EPs, you don't have to rationalise what you want. It makes absolutely no difference whether or not it 'makes sense' to him. The point is it is what you need.

Your H must pledge to be entirely transparent, holding nothing back. He must pledge to care for you, hiding nothing, and showing that he will never indulge in behaviours, or secrecy, you dislike.

You should be encouraged to 'check up on him' until you do it so often, and find nothing so often, that it becomes boring.

If transparency makes him feel controlled you should cheerfully inform him that you do not require it from him. Tell him you have no need for reluctant transparency, your store only opens for business when ENTHUSIASTIC transparency is on offer.

If enthusiastic transparency is not on offer, then you have no need for him at all and feel you should separate. His call.

It's not your job to persuade him. That IS controlling but more importantly it is impossible. However you are entirely within your right to control your own future and separate from an unsafe situation.

Which I would most certainly do if he is married to the idea of secrecy.

He doesnt need to grasp that you need reassurance. However it is pretty easy for you to spell out that this is your bottom line. All he needs to grasp is that he either does it, or loses you.

Trying to change people against their will IS exhausting - it is also impossible. All you can do is ensure you don't settle for less than you require.

You are on a beach. Draw a line in the sand which represents your standards.

On one side write 'enthusiastic and protective care' and on the other write 'whiny, reluctant, excuse-ridden accusative footdragging'.

Which side do you want to represent your standards?

HG, being a single MBer, I wouldn't even get out of bed to go on a date with a man who isn't willing provide me with enthusiastic care.

My lovebank simply does not open for business with that guy.

Why should YOU, who is willing to overcome the grief of an affair and bravely rebuild in a field of destruction settle for less?

What does just compensation involve?

In a nutshell JC is the 'repayment' of all the harm caused to the BS.

If separation caused an affair, repay with a end to separations
If lies were told, repay with transparency
If a casual approach with boundaries, repay with high boundaries
etc.

Here What is Just Compensation?

We had a tough day yesterday. He'd been living here about half the week and while we've both been making progress individually and on our marriage, we just completed the online seminar and are about to begin the lessons... on eliminating LB. Dr. H sent word via our coach that if we could ensure we could completely eliminate our AO, he would support my husband moving home permanently. However, if we could not, Dr. H said he should not even be here.

I trust Dr. H and want to follow the best path to a healthy, awesome marriage, so we separated, which was difficult for us as we both felt awful that we were moving backward instead of forward... even though I realize we need to make changes to get where we want to go. This led to some DJ, SD and AO on both our parts. Sigh... clearly, Dr. H is correct that we are not ready.

But, today is a new day and we are going to try to do the first lesson tonight... getting back up on the horse so we can get the LB back under control asap and move forward!

You must eliminate your own lovebusters. That is sentence one, chapter one, page one to being an MBer. Lovebusting will not get you anywhere but backwards. It will harm an already fragile structure and justify your h's lovebusters. If you are subject to lovebusting from your H, remove yourself.

I flipped through your thread and read you were struggling with boundaries and your husband feeling controlled and I had just posted my favorite link on this subject yesterday so....

Here is link to one of my favorite MB discussions regarding the often difficult to define term "boundaries" in contrast with manipulation and control. Pay particular attention to Noodle's posts.


BOUNDARIES VS. MANIPULATION/CONTROL - An Open Discussion

Mr. W

I agree 100% that I am responsible for eliminating my own LB's and am continuing to make progress working on these. I didn't elaborate in my initial post that it usually begins with him being frustrated and lashing out at me in anger. We tend to spin into the cycle from there.

Thus, I suppose that would flip your statement that my LB justify his to his LB justify mine. Regardless of which one of us LB'd first, I can't agree that it justifies the other to LB in response. My responses remain my responsibility... and his are his responsibility.

Yes, removing oneself from the conflict equation is one of the best deterrents and one that has been helping me enormously. We are starting the actual lessons on SD, DJ and LB to help us both completely eliminate these.