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Where does the need for allegiance fall into the list of emotional needs? Or is it categorized as something else? Specifically, my need for my spouse to value/choose/defend me over his extended family.
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Dr. Harley describes marriage as a relationship of extraordinary care, in which two people are "blended" into one and the marriage comes first - before family, before careers, even before children.
Do you and your H spend 15 hours a week meeting each other's ENs? After the 15 hours of UA time, do you spend about 15 hours a week together as a family doing fun and enjoyable activities together? After spending this time together, plus working, sleeping, cleaning, etc, there isn't a whole lot of time left over for spending unpleasant time with other people.
Do you and your H know about the Policy of Joint Agreement? The foundation of a great marriage is never doing anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. This means that if the time with the family is unpleasant and you would rather not go, then you both stay home until you can both agree enthusiastically on the solution.
As far as allegiance being an EN, it sounds more like a lack of care for you by your husband. Does your husband show a lack of care in other areas as well?
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Thank you for your reply. This was my first post but we've studied Dr. Harley's principles for years. We're both very familiar with his principles and guidelines, including the 15 hours and POJA.
In our case, POJA goes out the window whenever his family is the topic. It hurts and makes me feel unimportant and devalued. But I couldn't categorize which emotional need it might belong to.
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There's a great article about this. It sounds to me like it falls into your need for care. From The Mother-in-lawBut following the Policy of Joint Agreement does not mean that your husband will abandon the interests of his mother. In fact, when people follow the policy, their other interests and priorities are usually pursued vigorously. It's just that they are pursued in a way that is not in conflict with the interests of a spouse. If you put your spouse first in life, all your other interests usually flourish. If you put any interest between you and your spouse, not only will it ruin your marriage, but the divisive interest will usually suffer as well. As you already anticipate, this problem will get worse over time, and even if his mother passes away, you will always remember that his mother's feelings were more important than yours. It will never be the same unless you and your husband make an agreement with each other to put each other's feeling first --- do it NOW!
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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Do you and your H spend 15 hours a week meeting each other's ENs? After the 15 hours of UA time, do you spend about 15 hours a week together as a family doing fun and enjoyable activities together? Can you answer this?
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I think you really need to focus less on putting the need in a specific category. It doesn't really matter which category it falls under. What matters is that you, like any wife, need your husband to follow the POJA with you. You, like any wife, need your husband to care for you above anyone else.
"His Needs, Her Needs for Parents" has a great chapter on in-laws. Have you read it?
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In our case, POJA goes out the window whenever his family is the topic. I made that mistake for years in our marriage - it's a terrible mistake to make! Dr. Harley's position is that any exception that is made to the policy of joint agreement will eventually ruin a marriage. I have seen it happen here many times. It is that serious, and it is worth insisting that the policy of joint agreement should be followed as a condition of being married to you. Your husband should not do or say anything to his family that you are not enthusiastic about - which might mean he can't do anything with his family at all or even speak to them until the two of you find circumstances that you are enthusiastic about. This is not the His Needs, Her Needs side of the program, and this is not about an emotional need. This is the Love Busters and negotiation side of the program. Have you ever been on the Marriage Builders Radio show? I think it would do good to talk to Dr. Harley about your situation and get his recommendations for getting your husband on board with the real policy of joint agreement. (Not the corrupted version where exceptions are made for "important" things - that version doesn't work.)
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Do you and your H spend 15 hours a week meeting each other's ENs? After the 15 hours of UA time, do you spend about 15 hours a week together as a family doing fun and enjoyable activities together? Can you answer this? No, we do not. We're far beyond that right now. I've already asked him for a D but we've backed it down to an in-house separation to try to stick it out while our son is still at home. I watched his kids (my steps) live out of a backpack traveling back and forth between houses. I'd like to not do that to my son if possible. My H claims that he'd like to save our M, but from my perspective, he's not following the plan so it's unlikely. This is such a critical issue for me, I honestly don't think I can get past it, regardless of whether we did everything else right. It's hard to describe, but I feel like he's having an EA with his family. But honestly, there's many things wrong, this is just one of many. I just didn't recall Dr. Harley addressing it and was wondering.
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[quote=JustDaytoDay]
Have you ever been on the Marriage Builders Radio show? I think it would do good to talk to Dr. Harley about your situation and get his recommendations for getting your husband on board with the real policy of joint agreement. (Not the corrupted version where exceptions are made for "important" things - that version doesn't work.) Actually, yes we have. Dr. Harley has offered some wonderful, appropriate insight and advice. My H agrees to all of it, enthusiastically. He just has trouble walking the talk.
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In our case, POJA goes out the window whenever his family is the topic. I made that mistake for years in our marriage - it's a terrible mistake to make! Marcos, can you tell me how you changed that approach? My H has occasionally gone through the motions of POJA, but bottomline, he won't agree to anything that takes my position into consideration over theirs. He'll tell me daily that I'm his top priority, but actions speak louder than words and I just don't buy his words anymore. I'm not convinced he'll change.
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No, we do not. We're far beyond that right now. This is the first step to take now if you want to save this marriage. Nothing else will work unless you are getting the 15 hours UA. My H claims that he'd like to save our M, but from my perspective, he's not following the plan so it's unlikely. This is such a critical issue for me, I honestly don't think I can get past it, regardless of whether we did everything else right. It's hard to describe, but I feel like he's having an EA with his family. I used to feel the same about my inlaws. I know exactly what you mean. This is fixable. I just didn't recall Dr. Harley addressing it and was wondering. He addresses it in "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents." This book has a wonderful chapter in it on this very subject.
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There's also a chapter in Lovebusters that deals with inlaws ... Chapter 9, I believe.
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What Dr. Harley told me when I posted about inlaw trouble (empasis mine): Prisca:
Joyce and I had a somewhat similar experience when my father lost his temper with Joyce over her use of makeup. Coming from a conservative Mennonite background, he didn't believe that women should use it. My immediate reaction was that we would not have any further contact with my parents until he apologized and Joyce was willing to restore a relationship with him. He did sincerely apologize, and we later discovered that he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. Our relationship with my parents was restored, but the incident had a permanent effect on Joyce. She could not be with him for any length of time without experiencing extreme anxiety, but since they lived in a different state the problem was minimized. I let Joyce know that any contact we had with my family was entirely up to her.
In your case, I would recommend the same. Your husband understands the value of enthusiastic joint decisions in marriage, and how in-laws can ruin that enthusiasm. Your in-laws have much to gain by reconciling, and will try to do so as best they can to win your favor. But even if they react perfectly from now on, you will probably react the way Joyce did toward my father -- with great anxiety. The fact that he apologized and that we discovered that the cause was the early stages of dementia didn't affect her negative reaction. She did her best to reconcile but nothing changed the effect he had on her. The fact that my mother supported her reaction, and was extremely upset with my father for what he did, helped. But it could not erase the nightmare she experienced.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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No, we do not. We're far beyond that right now. This is the first step to take now if you want to save this marriage. Nothing else will work unless you are getting the 15 hours UA. Dr. Harley told my H that he has pushed me into withdrawal, and that he needs to address his LB's first. Otherwise, he's still contributing to a negative balance. It's difficult to final value in the My H claims that he'd like to save our M, but from my perspective, he's not following the plan so it's unlikely. This is such a critical issue for me, I honestly don't think I can get past it, regardless of whether we did everything else right. It's hard to describe, but I feel like he's having an EA with his family. I used to feel the same about my inlaws. I know exactly what you mean. This is fixable. I just didn't recall Dr. Harley addressing it and was wondering. He addresses it in "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents." This book has a wonderful chapter in it on this very subject. [/quote]
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No, we do not. We're far beyond that right now. This is the first step to take now if you want to save this marriage. Nothing else will work unless you are getting the 15 hours UA. Dr. Harley told my H that he has pushed me into withdrawal, and that he needs to address his LB's first. Otherwise, he's still contributing to a negative balance. It's difficult to final value in the 15 hours when it's unpleasant. My H claims that he'd like to save our M, but from my perspective, he's not following the plan so it's unlikely. This is such a critical issue for me, I honestly don't think I can get past it, regardless of whether we did everything else right. It's hard to describe, but I feel like he's having an EA with his family. I used to feel the same about my inlaws. I know exactly what you mean. This is fixable. We went to see a counselor after one of the bigger incidents. The counselor told my H to cut contact until he could redefine his relationship with them such that I was his priority. He went about 60 days and then started insisting that I reengage with them, that I wasn't being forgiving, that they're "family" and I'm the problem because I'm not embracing them again. I find that when he followed that counselor's advice, or that of Dr. Harley, he'd be irritable, like an alcoholic without a drink, and put pressure on me to change my attitude about them. Dr. Harley's approach with Joyce and his father would not go over in our house. My H explained early in our M, (not beforehand unfortunately) that he learned from his first M that wives are temporary but family is forever. The failing of our M simply reinforces that belief, regardless of whether he's contributing to the failure. I just didn't recall Dr. Harley addressing it and was wondering. He addresses it in "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents." This book has a wonderful chapter in it on this very subject. I might look that up. Although it might be moot and will just make me sad that it confirms that what I want is right but I'm unlikely to ever have it.
Last edited by JustDaytoDay; 10/19/14 02:04 PM.
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I ran into this thread and it describes a very similar situation to mine. My partner and I both have 2 young adult kids living with us. One his and one mine. I love his as I would my own daughter but our perspectives are different. I realized too late that we do not feel the same way about priorities of a relationship. I have always felt the couple's relationship comes first and he does not. That doesn't mean I don't love my kids of course. His daughter is great, a good student (college), and no trouble at all in that respect, but very emotionally dependent on him. Things got a little better when we made sure we had a day out to ourselves but it is not enough. Definitely not 15 hours a week. Times that should be for intimate conversation and other intimate relations end up talking about her, and much of his free time is spent one-on-one with her. As they were both adults when we got together we tacitly agreed to leave any remaining "childrearing"- in quotes because they are not children- to the bio parent, but I don't see this getting any better. The only hope I see is on the occasion we have had to spend a few days alone, we are able to devote more undivided attention to each other. How can I be a supportive stepparent and still make sure we give our relationship the attention it deserves before I descend further in to the withdrawal stage? I don't see any options except accept things the way they are and deal with it.
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What is his daughter's relationship like with her biological mother? Does she have any problems/issues she is dealing with?
How long are you married?
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klm, you probably want to start up your own thread in the dating/relationships forum. No one will see you buried down here at the bottom of someone else's thread.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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OK thanks
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With her mom- nonexistent- our own relationship (me and her) is quite good and I'm glad I can be in her life. No major issues considering difficulties in former household. Both adult "kids" get along great too. Just finding it difficult to carve out time as a couple and realizing that this is very important to me.
A little over 6 months.
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