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Well, first time here so bear with me.
Story:
WH had 3 month affair, 12-09 then confessed late Jan. 2010. Waffled back and forth till final NC since 3-8-10. Came home remorseful, doing all the right things to help me heal until about a week ago.
My problem:
We spend a lot of time together. When he's off work we often go out together. Often nights alone, turn into us talking about the A (late at night after a drink or two, which I'm learning isn't good). I feel I need to talk, WH sees it as fighting. Now the last week or so he has been refusing to talk about any aspect of the A. Says we just need to be normal together and I need to stop thinking so much. I've noticed a change or lack of the remorseful comments I had been seeing too. He still shows love, says I love you, plenty of SF.....he just won't say anything or let me say anything about my feelings or the A. I tried to talk to him telling him I need to hear these things to feel safe and to heal, again a night out alone about 3 nights ago, and he got defensive again. He says things like " I just want this to go away." I feel like I'm supposed to just shut up. He wants to just "let it go" and I can't. Not like that. I felt I has doing better at healing when he showed me the remorse. Now I feel more insecure than ever. I'm wanting to try MC with MB, but feel too scared to ask him about it. Am I LB if I bring up how I feel. Is he in some sort of fog again? I'm almost 100% sure about NC though. I need some help. Do I shut up and let us just coast for a while or not? I feel every time I talk I'm pushing him away.
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doing all the right things to help me heal until about a week ago. Who is the other woman? Is she married? Are they co-workers.
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Print this out and read it. Have your WH read it. If he won't read it, read it to him. Joseph's Letter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
(end of Joseph's Letter)
Last edited by chrisner; 04/28/10 02:26 PM.
Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It ain’t just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
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He is 36, she is a 23 year old co-worker, who also was our baby sitter. Yes, nice I know. There were a couple of weeks till work arrangements could be worked out when they did see each other. He would call me if she was there though and was good about that and about calming my fears about seeing her. She is now leaving for another job as she is graduating from college. Her graduation is in one week and I feel she won't be back after that for sure. She hasn't been at that job for at least 3 weeks now.
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KK, he doesn't want to talk about it because he's ashamed and embarrassed. That is of no help to you. That is selfish behavior on his part. Your WH needs to do whatever you require so that you feel safe again. He needs to answer all your questions. And you need to thank him for doing so. I asked my FWH to sit down with me and go over every single detail, day by day, that he could remember of his A. It was painful, it was cathartic. You may not require this. You may want to write down the questions and have a question & answer period on every Tuesday, or whatever. Another thing that H & I did was to email back and forth. This was particularly helpful when things were a little too emotional to discuss face-to-face. The bottom line was that the A was not going to just "go away". Nosirree. You can disabuse him of that notion right now. Because healing doesn't happen when the A is swept under the rug. It's the elephant in the room that HAS to be discussed. There is a bonus, if it helps your WH: having these honest, CALM discussions helped us reach a level of intimacy that we'd never reached before. Your 'normal' shouldn't come back, either. Normal was what got the two of you into this in the first place. You need to read everything on this site to address the issues in your M in order to affair-proof it. Oh, and yeah - try to talk about it when you're not drinking. My H ended up with a black eye after one of those nights. 
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
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I read that yesterday and thought about it, but he has told me everything about the A. I'm not sure it pertains to him. He did a good job of all that for a while, now at 2 months since NC, he is shutting down. When we talked the other night he said this would have torn us apart if not for our 12 mo. old baby. He also said he feels we are just falling back into our "content existence." I told him those comments felt hurtful.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I feel I have a lot of my answers about the A, but why do I just want a simple, "I"m sorry, are you doing ok today?" It seems so easy for him to ease my pain a little. I told him that and he said that he's not an emotional guy and won't be like that every day. I think he is shutting it out of his mind without care of my pain. He hugs me daily, holds me at night, says I love you- but in some ways, yes it does seem like "the norm." Am I crazy for needing to see him with tears in his eyes daily?
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Thanks for your thoughts. I feel I have a lot of my answers about the A, but why do I just want a simple, "I"m sorry, are you doing ok today?" It seems so easy for him to ease my pain a little. I told him that and he said that he's not an emotional guy and won't be like that every day. I think he is shutting it out of his mind without care of my pain. He hugs me daily, holds me at night, says I love you- but in some ways, yes it does seem like "the norm." Am I crazy for needing to see him with tears in his eyes daily? Nope, that's not crazy. You need affirmation that he is sorry. That will help you feel safe. There was a time when I needed my H to act humble and contrite, etc. That helped me. I didn't like seeing him laugh at a sitcom, or have an engrossed conversation about football, etc. I thought "How DARE you think about anything but the affair!" You'll feel that way less and less as time goes on. Have you said to him "I'm feeling a little down right now, could you give me a hug?" Sometimes they just don't know that you need that and you need to communicate it to them.
D-Day 2-10-2009
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Yes, I'm guilty of saying "nothing" when he asks me "what wrong?" I'm thinking really, you have to ask. I think he has no idea of the constant dwelling on the A my mind does. He doesn't know I wake up at night like "boom" thinking of them in bed. Didn't even ask for it, just sudden wake up and it's there. Do I say those things to him as often as they happen? Sometimes I do feel like I bring it on myself more than I should. I agree, we do need some times, days with just us being us. I just don't like how far apart they are getting.
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Yes, I'm guilty of saying "nothing" when he asks me "what wrong?" I'm thinking really, you have to ask. I think he has no idea of the constant dwelling on the A my mind does. He doesn't know I wake up at night like "boom" thinking of them in bed. Didn't even ask for it, just sudden wake up and it's there. Do I say those things to him as often as they happen? Sometimes I do feel like I bring it on myself more than I should. I agree, we do need some times, days with just us being us. I just don't like how far apart they are getting. You don't need to get into specifics. Worse case, if you say "I'm upset because I was picturing you in bed with OW" it could cause HIM to picture the same thing. You don't want that. All you need to say is "I'm feeling a little down right now. Could you give me a hug? It makes me feel so much better." Your WH doesn't get it. Don't expect him to - you know what my FWH said in the beginning? He said "I didn't think it would be such a big thing." "I didn't think it would hurt you so much."  Of course, he knows differently now. You need to spend at least 15 hours a week with just the two of you. Doing things you both like to do. I don't mean watching TV - the focus needs to be on the two of you. Do you golf? Bowl? Browse antique stores? What do both of you like to do?
D-Day 2-10-2009
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She hasn't been at that job for at least 3 weeks now. KK, this is when true NC started. Even if he just saw her car at work or her name on an email or caught a glimpse of her in the parking lot this is still a level of triggering contact for a wayward. He may be into actual withdrawal now and that can take a few weeks. who also was our baby sitter. Sorry KK, this has to be very hard.
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Welcome to MB KK! You are so fortunate that you found this place. You should probably call the coaching center on your own. They can help you figure out a way to get your H on board with R (recovery).
Have you read the basic articles here? Have you read "Surviving an Affair"? It would help if you could get your H to read it as well.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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So I left out something, there was this incident the other night when we were out. We saw the OW (GIRL really!) We left but then my WH forgot his wallet and I said I'd go back in and get it. I didn't want him seeing her again. Well, I ended up glaring at her, then walked up to her and said, "what you can't even look at me?'' She said, "what do you want me to say?" About that time my WH had the front door guy pull me outside. Humiliating. I was upset he did that, but do understand I should not have confronted her like that, in a bar, after drinks......could have ended really bad. He said he was protecting me and I get that. Well, it seems like this is when he really backed off on remorse. Maybe I'm reading more into it, I don't know.
I feel like he's taking control of how I can react. Almost an attitude like, I should be happy he's here and shut up. He is very defensive. An example: We both work in hospitals, wash our hands a lot, constantly putting on gloves, etc. and don't wear our wedding rings to work. Been this way for years. He got in the habit of not wearing it at all, really fine b/c it wasn't fitting well anyways. Not a new thing. Well last week or so I asked him to start wearing it, he said ok. He kept forgetting, which I get, it was a habit. He remembered two nights ago and wore it (on his own) when we were out. I noticed though for work last two days he did not wear it. Well, today on his way out the door I said, here is your ring. He said "I don't wear it to work." Period. No excuse, no apology. Just "I don't do that, I never have and never will." I said, "of course that's the one place I'd like you wear it to." I got a big frustrated sigh from him. That attitude feels so demeaning, like I know you want me to, my A happened at work, but I really don't care if it helps you or not- I'm not doing it. A little tension, he hugs me, says I love you and leaves. Then he calls within 5 minutes to tell me something else and makes a bigger point to say I love you. It's like I get those same 3 words, but want to hear....I'm sorry I hurt you, I'm here forever. Am I just expecting too much? Really, if I start asking for MC, or to read MB thread to understand my pain, I feel he'll get mean again and leave. I feel like he's that frustrated with dealing with any of it. I almost feel like I need to do a plan A type thing right now, but still I don't know if I'm just overreacting. Do I take my hugs and I love yous an just give it some time right now?
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Thanks for your thoughts. I feel I have a lot of my answers about the A, but why do I just want a simple, "I"m sorry, are you doing ok today?" It seems so easy for him to ease my pain a little. I told him that and he said that he's not an emotional guy and won't be like that every day. I think he is shutting it out of his mind without care of my pain. He hugs me daily, holds me at night, says I love you- but in some ways, yes it does seem like "the norm." Am I crazy for needing to see him with tears in his eyes daily? kkhealing, instead of bringing up the affair over and over again, I would tell him what you need to HEAL. Tell him you need for him to show you affection and how you need that need met. The problem here is that you have no program for recovery so your marriage will not recover. It will just limp along in a more crippled state than before unless you change the foundation of your marriage. And that means creating a romantic marriage where you are both in love again. I would start by reading Surviving an Affair and follwoing the program in there. The most important thing you can do to restore the love in your marriage is to spend 20 hours per week meeting these top needs: affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and rec conmpanionship. This will make the biggest and fastest impact on your marriage. undivided attention
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It's crazy because he is showing affection, but somehow it doesn't seem to ease my pain for very long. He told me the other night he often shows the affection out of obligation, understanding, he said, that the feeling will come with the action. He said this very matter of fact, emotionless. So now I don't seem to really trust the affection. Is he here but not really wanting to be? I want him to want to be-does that make sense? Any WS out there - is this just a little fog in the road? Is it normal for him to have these reactions? It's like he has all the power, drive, for where we go from here. I feel so scared all of a sudden. When I hear remorse my fear leaves- he won't give me any lately. What do I do? I agree not to sit and talk about the A. Somehow I need more deep conversation concerning my feelings though.
By the way, on my way to get SAA.
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KKH,
What is happening is that the two of you are not meeting the emotional needs of one another.
Period.
You are WANTING something. He is showing affection. Maybe he is, but you are NEEDING to receive the affection in a way that he isn't giving it.
He is WANTING something from you, but you are not giving it to him, either. His statement regarding how the marriage seems to be falling back into the previous state is IMPORTANT!!!!
It's telling you that the same-old-situation is returning.
Why?
Because although the two of you have the desire and willingness to make the marriage work.............
Neither of you have taken the necessary steps to........
CHANGE YOUR ACTUAL BEHAVIOR.
Here's where to start:
1. Tell your husband how much you love him. Then, tell him that you must talk about some issues BRIEFLY. Then, keep the promise and be brief!
2. Tell him that the affair was a bad choice, and while it did not devastate the marriage completely, you REALIZE that there were issues that needed addressed in the marriage. Tell him that the status of the marriage PRIOR TO THE AFFAIR was such that there were problems that both of you needed to work on.
3. Tell him that the issues in the marriage prior to the affair, and now after the affair, likely still remain issues. The only difference is that the affair has planted lots of hurt and anger in the middle, and complicated the process of fixing things.
BUT YOU HAVE FOUND A PLAN THAT YOU BOTH CAN WORK ON, AND IT WILL CHANGE THINGS.
4. Ask him if it would be great if you and he could fall in love again, really meet one another's emotional needs, and have a marriage that was one in which the both of you were comfortable, felt loved and supported, happy, felt more trusted, safe, and worked as a team? (Of course he will say YES)
5. Ask him to just give you one month - just one - and ask him to just start with the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Ask him to look it over, fill it out, and rank his top three.
Then, ask him to agree to meet your top three - just do ONE THING A DAY for you. JUST ONE, and ONLY ONE, a day.
You do the same.
That will get you started.
In the meantime, you need to get a plan going for your marriage.
Read up on the Emotional Needs and how they work in your marriage.
Because you two need to get this going.
It is a place to start.
Then, get some planning going on
FUN THINGS TO DO TOGETHER.
It does not have to be "all affair, all the time". Your focus also needs to be on REBUILDING your love, and not only on revisiting the devastation.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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KK, this is why you need to read SAA. Your H had an affair because he was emotionally detached from you. Basically, he fell out of love. What has to happen now is that you have to fall in love again. Once you start meeting his needs and STOP lovebusting he will fall in love with you again IF YOU DO IT RIGHT.
For example, if you don't schedule 20 hours per week together of undivided attention time meeting those top 4 needs, his feelings won't come back. That is KEY.
And you must stop bringing up the affair. That is a lovebuster. Instead, come here and VENT while you focus on being as PLEASANT as possible around him. Dragging up the affair is an enemy of good conversation that will IMPEDE the creation of romance in your marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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KK, the most IMPACTFUL and FASTEST way to fall in love is to do the undivided attention I discussed. That means you spend 20 hours a week ALONE meeting these 4 needs:
affection
sexual fulfillment
conversation [pleasant!]
recreational companionship
My H and I sit down and actually schedule this time once a week.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML and SB-
Thank you both so much. I've been dealing with this on my own since D day in January. It feels good to hear.....do this!
I hear you both saying no A talk. I assume that means I can't ask to hear remorse either. (What good is it when asked for anyways?) This is what I feel desperate to hear, but I guess your saying those feelings will go away for me if I focus on the positive. I needed to hear you say shut up about the A, but please clarify describing what I need when it's caused by the A. How do I do that?
Also, just bought SA. I bought His Need/Her Needs a while back. I stopped reading it though and didn't want my WH to read it either b/c is starts out talking about the A, how great the SF was, how hard it is to leave this thing that feels like the best thing that happened to WS. Is if normal I don't want him reliving that in his head while reading this. SA is already starting off the same way and those words hurt me to hear as well. Help me with this-please!
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I needed to hear you say shut up about the A, but please clarify describing what I need when it's caused by the A. How do I do that? KK, just don't talk about the affair anymore. Vent here instead of with him. Another thing that Marriage Builders offers is phone coaching. Some folks have used that with great success. Dr Harley's children, Steve Harley and Dr Jennifer Chalmers are the coaches. They assess your situation and then give you a plan along with homework. It is pricey, about $200 a session, but they can achieve in a few short sessions what other counselors can never do. Several of us here have used their coaching services to great success. My H and I went to the MB weekend.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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