This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show yesterday. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Harley, as many of you know, is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

AMEN. Telling my kids was the best thing I did in this whole mess. My marriage might not make it, but them knowing the truth about right and wrong is way more important than whether their mother "does what makes her happy" or tries to recover our marriage.

As someone who was raised by a serial cheater, I can attest to the fact that silence only causes great confusion. My mothers silence signaled endorsement, in my mind, and left me vulnerable to my fathers IMMORAL guidance. Not giving kids moral guidance is PARENTAL NEGLECT.

Mel:

I have listened to Dr. Laura from time to time. It isn't necessarily so much what she says as how she says it. There is no doubt in a listener's mind that Dr. Laura is on the side of right or wrong, always, period. She defines right or wrong based on moral standards. It is wrong to commit adultery; ergo, tell the kids exactly that in specific language.

Dr. Laura is also a fan of the concept "Unintended consequences." And once again, she defines that in terms of right or wrong with a moral base. Ergo, it is wrong to break up a family through the means of adultery.

Overall, she hasn't hit on adultery to the extent she has covered other aspects of human behavior. I dunno why other than she paid a price for her own growing up experiences and it is possible that adultery is one of the challenges she faced at some point in time. I do wonder how she explains to her son the series of nude pictures that were posted all over the web or if she has even tried as yet.

Another reason is that she may have taken a look at Dr. Harley's stuff and decided he was close enough to her own style that no embellishment was needed by her.

For those seeking to fine tune a moral base that works, she is worth the listen.

Oh, and thanks for the transcript. It covered your point very well.

Larry

Larry, hopefully she explains her nude pictures on the internet [wasn't she 18?] the same way any other adult explains their youthful stupidities to their children. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic with 23 years sobriety.

My kids know I used to be a sorry DRUNK and what I did to CHANGE myself. They can see with their own eyes that I am not that person. Hopefully, my kids will judge me by my WRONGDOING [which was GREAT] but also judge me by my redemptive actions. That is all part of the package.

And thankfully, my son has not thrown my alcoholic past in my face every time I state an opinion on right and wrong. That would be immoral to do to a person who has redeemed themselves, IMO.

Also, I hope my own NUDE pictures never make it to the internet so folks won't use it to discredit me.

Second paragraph, third sentence - huh???????

Larry

Hopefully, my kids will judge me by my WRONGDOING [which was GREAT] but also judge me by my redemptive actions.

yes?

For those of you with older children and have told, I admire you for telling them the truth about their family. Thinking that life is perfect when it is not does not teach them how to handle sin on their own. They NEED to know how to deal with evil in today's world. You can be perfect examples of how to correctly and successfully break free from sin.

My two boys are 3 and 1. My wife's A happened before they were born. We have been advised by family to never tell them. My opinion, as stated above, is to someday tell them about it and how we (hopefully) overcame it to build something great.

In this situation, what age is appropriate to tell them, under what circumstances should it be brought up, or do they ever need to know anyway?

Obviously, if ever either one of them or their future wives ever start down the wrong road, we can step in and tell them then, but do they ever need to know before that?

Balin, I don't see any point in telling kids about past events that have no bearing on their lives. The point is NOT to air out dirty laundry, but to give moral guidance in a tragic situation. We are talking about telling children whose lives are being torn apart by adultery.

They DO have a need to know because the adultery has a huge bearing on their lives. I have never believed that children should be told about a parents dirty laundry for no reason. I sure wouldn't tell your kids. There is no reason to do so.

Kids as young as 4, depending on their development, can understand right from wrong. I remember being exposed to my fathers adultery, around age 4, and the terrible toll it took on our family. It was very confusing to me. I wish someone would have given me some moral guidance at that time.

Balin,

I think that they need to know BEFORE they head down that road...but I am unsure of when to tell them.

My boys are 4, 5, and 7. They are aware of the pain and depression I have felt since d-day with my FWH, but they do not know why. Many times I have thought that it would be appropriate to sit down and tell them that daddy hurt mommy's feeling by kissing OW (who they know). Then explain to them that daddy is sorry and that mommy and daddy are trying to help each other become stronger partners. I don't think that they need to know/understand the full explanation of an A at their age...it is sufficient to tell them that daddy hurt mommy by "loving" another woman and that we are working together to be better.

I think that telling them would help me in recovery because then when I am sad, I can just let them know that mommy is thinking about what happened...instead of trying to find a lie to cover it.

We haven't really talked about it together, other than that we want to tell them eventually...for the same reasons that have been stated above. I don't know what we will do.

If anyone comes up with a great answer...let me know.

HTM

HTM, it really is important that they understand WHY you were upset and understand WHY adultery is wrong. If they are not told the truth, they often become confused and think they are the cause. And if adultery is not CLEARLY defined as WRONG and IMMORAL, they will think it is OK. Silence means endorsement to kids and causes enormous confusion.

You can make this into one of the most profoundly positive lessons of their lifetime. Dr. Harley often talks about how learning of his fathers adultery changed him forever. He was able to see the horrible pain of adultery on his mothers face, but he also could see how their marriage RECOVERED. He calls it a life changing LESSON that opened up his eyes about adultery.

My father was a cheater and my mother remained silent. I remember being very confused as young as 4 about this because it just seemed WRONG to me. My instincts told me this was wrong, but since no adult would VALIDATE those feelings, I concluded that i must be a stupid girl and learned to ignore those instincts. This left me wide open as I got older to my father's IMMORAL teachings. If a parent does not give a child moral guidace then they are susceptible to immoral teachings. And that is what happened to me.

Dr. Harley wrote this over on the other board to the mother of 3 little girls:

Thank you Melody.

I was actually thinking that I would be told the opposite. But I DO feel that this A has affected them. They have seen me go through the range of emotions...even though I try so hard to hide them. They are aware of something going on.

I do not want them to know all of the details...they are too young to understand the sexual aspects. I don't know how to explain the EA aspect better than the idea that mommy and daddy are supposed to be best friends. Daddy made the choice to become best friends with OW and it hurt mommy's feelings very bad. It wasn't fair to mommy because she is daddy's partner and daddy didn't respect her. (we already talk about respect and choices in our family) Daddy lied to mommy about his friendship with OW. Now mommy and daddy are working together to become best friends again. Daddy told OW that he doesn't want to be her friend anymore and that she should never talk to him again.

Does that sound about right or is it too simplified?

HTM, kids that young can understand the meaning of marriage, that there is one man and one woman who are supposed to only love each other. They are not supposed to love other people in the same way they love mommy. That is BAD to do that and very very hurtful to mommy. Tell them that daddy is sorry and he has stopped being bad.

I would just hit the high points, but just make sure they understand WHY adultery is wrong and WHY you are so hurt. I would also tell them about the OW.

I've told my oldest two daughters (10 and 12) that dad said he had to divorce mom so that he could associate with another woman (his exact words). Should I also tell our youngest daughter (5) what is going on?

Thanks. I think these are issues that all of us parents agonize over because we DON'T want the children to think badly and not want to be with the other parent and, for me, I don't want to jeopardize my WH's relationship with the girls (even though HE did this, not me...). *sigh* It's all such a weird and complicated situation.

I like this version better than the best friends version. The trouble with the BF version is that even small kids have a best friend and may try to transfer some of the "advise" to these relationships which obviously aren't the same.

Regarding the concern that knowing the truth may affect how children feel about their adulterous parent, that is certainly a real concern but also a natural consequence of the A (to the parent). From the child's POV, they are going to have to deal with this issue no matter what - either now (at the time of telling) or in the future when they ultimately know the truth. At least telling them now you will never be accused of being dishonest. Unfortunately, children are victims of adultery as well. Their best defense is the truth.

I agree it is so very hard and so very confusing. But, they should think badly of him. If they don't think its bad to commit adultery and abandon them to find his "happiness" then they don;t know right from wrong. They will grow up and do the same thing in their own lives.

I think Dr. Laura made an excellent point when she said:

Thank you for the comment about BF versus lover. I agree...I need to make it clear and I don't want them to transfer the rule to their lives if we are talking about BFs. One of the hardest things for my students to get in 2nd grade was that they could have more than one BF...not at the exclusion of others. So I don't want to encourage that idea.

Wow...now, the thing will be finding a time to sit and talk where we can really be there with the boys. This weekend we will be camping with other families...not a good time. And I don't know that during the week is a great time either. But then again, kids are so resilient. At least with my boys, they seem to take in the information and move on. Maybe H and I should talk about it with them before we leave today and then highlight how much fun we have as a family and how hard daddy is working with mommy to be good again.

Er, You know what you intended to say. Did you mean that your kids can judge you by your wrongdoing provided they also judge you by your redemptive actions OR that your wrongdoing was GREAT

Larry

HTM, Tabby is right, the concept of husband and wife in a marriage needs to be emphasized. Can your H be trusted to be honest with them? Because if he is allowed to SPIN THEM, it would be better left unsaid.

My mom cheated on my dad. I word it that way because I don't know that it was an "affair". Maybe that's naive-talk.

Anyway, I know because once in a while when they were fighting (my parents were/are ALWAYS fighting!) my dad would bring up GREG. My brother & I both have memories of that name being mentioned and slight remorse from my mom. They of course never talked to us about it though. They didn't talk to us about...anything! I've wondered a few times as an adult if I should ask my mom about it, but at this point, why bother?

I didn't feel confused or like it was my fault, heck if I really dig deep I can recall feeling hopeful - that maybe she'd found somebody to get us out of there!

Kinda OT but it got me thinking. I can't imagine that part of my childhood has had much impact on who I am now, as there is SO MUCH else to blame, but who knows??