For those who have forgiven their WS, when did you forgive them and when did you realize that you had or chose to do so? Is the affair never ever mentioned again in any capacity? Are there many out there who in spite of staying in the marriage for years since D-day still find they can't forgive the WS? Can there be genuine happiness without forgiveness?

Dr. Harley recommends JUST COMPENSATION in order to effectively recover the marriage:


entire article: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

I believe forgiveness is essential to recovery.

It does not mean the affair is never mentioned again.

I forgave my wife quite quickly - but she was providing the "just compensation" that Dr Harley speaks of.

Forgiveness is making a decision to not hold anothers wrongs against them. To hand them over to God to deal with them.

Forgiveness is for YOU. Whether or not the marriage survives.

I believe forgiveness preceeds reconcilliation and restoration so it should happen in early recovery otherwise it's hard to move on and build a new marriage. Very difficult to have intimacy with someone you have not forgiven.

Just my 2c.

I think that forgiveness really lifts a load off of your shoulders.

I forgave my exh for everything, I didn't TELL him, I just one day realized that instead of wasting my precious time, or any more of my thoughts, it was OVER between us, and it was going to stay over. I then realized how I had become quite happy on my own. In fact, I was happier than I had been in YEARS. I was happy with my kids, my pets, my friends.... and I realized that I would be a fool to squander any of my happiness holding a grudge against someone who had been making ME, and I am sure I was making HIM, very unhappy for a while.

He is happy with his gf, who is good to my kids, and nice to me. I am happy being me, I do not need someone to make me happy.

And once I felt this way, life became a lot brighter. He could not push my buttons, I could fairly call him out on things, and he could not say that I was being irrational or angry... he now knows that if he acts rude, I will not tolerate it. We get along a lot better now. And the crazy thing is, his GF is able to call him out on him being unreasonable, and she has, in a way, become a kind of ally to me... When he is being unreasonable about parenting duties, she calls him on it. She was a single mom, so she knows what it is like. So in that regard, it is ok.

So, in retrospect, I became a better person because I let go. And I forgave. And I think this every time that I start to sway: "he is happy now, happier than he was with me. I am happy now, happier now that I am not with him. I cannot begrudge his happiness because it is not with me."
Just my thoughts.

BigK,

I think I've told you that I value your advice, but I'm not sure that I agree with the above statement. Possibly its just a difference in our definitions of "forgiveness".

To my mind, forgiving FogFree's A is tantamount to giving my approval, by saying that "I'm now OK" with what happened ... that "I can accept what happened and move on".

Well, we've definately "moved on" and are solidly in R, but to my mind ... I just don't see this as "forgiveable", but I'm very open to others thoughts on this as it is a sentiment that FogFree would like to hear from me.

I did forgive my WW...just to find out that she was still in contact with OM.

So basically I have realized that she does not deserve forgiveness.

The only time I can see myself offering forgiveness again is if we don't make it...after divorce.

If you feel that you can forgive......wait a long time, then re-assess the situation before committing to it. IMHO.

Sad to say that this is likely where you are headed with this attitude.

I'm not saying you are not entitled to it, merely that unless you can get past what happened, then it will forever be a wall between you and KMS and there will be NOTHING she will be able to do to help you heal.

I do understand what you are saying about you forgave and got burned again, but was that really the case or did you just forgive too early without anything being done that warranted forgiveness?

Broken NC is pretty much the norm rather than the exception. An affair that goes underground is a typical affair in many ways. Lies and continued lying are the way of the wayward and not something that is out of the ordinary for anyone involved in an affair.

My wife was well along in an EA in 05, ended contact with OM via registered letter and had NC for almost 13 months...
And then she contacted him in spring of 06 and things really took off.

If you have a car that has a dead battery every time you try to start it, you have some options. You can find out what the problem is and fix it so that you can have faith in the car to be reliable...

Or you can let the car sit and do nothing other than let it rust away to nothing...

Or you can haul it off to the scrap heap and replace it with a new one...

Or you can just solve the problem of a dead battery by making sure there is someone around to jump start it every time you want to drive it.

The choice is yours to make.

If your car doesn't start one day, you can fix it or expect to have it fail again when you need it most.

If your marriage is broken by an affair, you can fix it or expect it to happen again. Forgiveness without resolution always leads to future heart ache.

I'm not blaming you, Intro. I'm saying that forgiveness needs to be earned, but should also be something that can be earned. It should only be offered after it is earned but if it will never be offered, then there is no reason to try to earn it.

Since an affair is the result of entitlement fueled by resentment a year or more of begging, hard work and efforts to earn back trust and forgiveness that is never even a possibility will only pile on more of both. It becomes self defeating very quickly.

If KMS can never be forgiven, why would she want to do anything toward recovery? Unless you can trust her again, you will never be recovered. Unless you can forgive, there is nothing she can do for you.

Not saying to forgive and forget and get past it all right now. I'm just saying that if recovery is never going to happen anyway, why waste the effort?



JMO.

Mark

Maybe I should re-phrase my statement a little...

The only time I will "literally" make her a "vocal" offer for forgiveness will be after divorce...if that is what happens.

I realize that I internally have to forgive, for my own well-being...but, saying to her "I forgive you" is NEVER going to happen...not again.

If she (or anyone else for that matter) needed to hear these words in order to forge on with recovery, then they are in recovery for all the wrong reasons.

Thanks for the response. Much to think about.

One can define "forgiveness" in different ways. Among others, I think two definitions that are relevent to recovery are "cease to feel resentment" and to "pardon".

Under the first definition, I think "forgiveness" is essential to recovery. Resentment makes people withdraw and withdrawal causes people to disconnect. So getting rid of the resentment is essential.

Using this definition, I forgave my FWW pretty soon after d-day. I don't think my FWW believes that I did, so I don't know how much that has helped or hurt recovery efforts.

I don't recall making a conscious choice to forgive her. It just didn't take me very long to "connect the dots" on the "why" of the A, and frankly, I didn't take the A personally.

Under the second definition, (to pardon) this essentially means to release from liability. One can forgive the liability or one can expect the WS to "make good" on the liability. IMHO, the later is what Dr. Harley means by "just compensation" the WS is not released from the liability, but rather has to pay off the debt.

I don't think either one has to be done to "recover". However, I think if one wants to have a fulfilling M, then the answer is not to "forgive" the liability, but for the WS to "make good" on the liability.

This type of "forgiveness" can occur during the recovery process, perhaps later, or perhaps never. I say this because some (F)WS never "pay off" the debt. In these cases, IMHO, the M recovers from the A, but it isn't really a fulfilling M.

I personally think some (F)WS's rage against this second part, while claiming they want a good M. I never really understand this.

When did I forgive my DH. I would say pretty much say I forgave him for his RA right away. ONLY because it happiend 10yrs ago before he decided to tell me the full truth. And I knew he didnt have contact with her and at this point because of my past A I had full access to all his stuff. I didnt have to forgive him. I chose to so we can recover from ALL the pain and hurt we have done unto each other.


Our A's are mentioned. We talk about them soemtimes like its a regular conversation. Wierd I know. We cant dwell on what happiend we can only better ourselves and keep improving. We used to fight over it I would be uncomfortable talking about it and so fourth. But now it doesnt bother me. I am not that person I was 10yrs ago and same with him.

It's got nothing to do with acceptance or that I'm OK with what happened - never in a million years would I say that.

Forgiveness means I'm not going to hold her sins against her. That I am prepared to live with the consequences of her sin. That I release her from bondage to her sin. That I don't hold it against her.

raven,

I have been through many things in my life. The affair ranks up there, but actually is not the worst thing I have had to forgive someone for.

I don't know where you are in your recovery timeline. Seems to me that forgiving comes in its own time.

You are asking if you need to forgive to recover the marriage? I think you do. Because I think what happens is that the person who fails to forgive fills with grief and anger and becomes so tied to the event that they cannot move from that point in time. That event becomes an anchor in life, and mires them right there. No matter what gains they make, the emotional self does not move forward, because it is chained to "the trauma". It is not set free.

I believe forgiveness is the freedom giver, and the gift is given to the person who does the forgiving.

As a survivor of rape, I struggled for years with the images and memories of the event. I prayed for release. It did not work. I acted out, drank alcohol, and did drugs. There was no release. I was angry and had rages. There was no release. I cried for no reason, and had mood swings that outwardly had no explanation. No release.

Through much inner work, I found forgiveness for the perpetrators. At the moment of the full point of forgiveness, and only then, did the richness of release find me.

I won't tell you that you wake up one day and forgive. I worked to get there. But yes, there was an epiphany for me, and that day my life changed. The flower of forgiveness bloomed fully open that day, and the sun shone on it in all glory.

That day was my freedom day.

I learned something about life that day, about forgiveness.

So my answer to you is that yes, if YOU want to recover from the trauma, I urge you to explore forgiveness.

To choose otherwise I think is to make a mistake you will look back and regret.

Because you ask the question, I think you already knew the answer.

SB

Hi blackraven-

Forgiveness is actually a banking term. It means to erase a debt.

What forgiveness does for the one who goes through the process of forgiving is to let go of the bond that "debt" has on his or her life.

It isn't easily done. It is a process. The larger the "debt" that needs to be forgiven, the more there is to deal with, because the one forgiving has to figure out all the ways the "debt" has impacted his or her life.

I consciously worked through the process of forgiving my XH for having an A (started as an EA, became a PA later) with a much younger OW (who was a family friend and a youth volunteer in his ministry) while I was going through cancer treatment. I also had to work through forgiving the leadership of the church my XH had worked at (his EA cost him his position there) for basically ignoring me during that terrible year.

What forgiveness has done for me is enabled me to be free of hard feelings and the deep pain that all of these people's actions caused in my life. It also has allowed me to pray for them.

It hasn't made what they did right. It hasn't put my stamp of approval on them. It has released me from the need to "collect" on their "debt" and that has been very freeing.

Just want to share what we discussed about forgiveness in the DivorceCare class that I took. It goes right along with what some have said already, and parallels many of the MB principals.

Forgiveness is not:

A feeling - it is a decision, an act of your will
Minimizing the offense
Condoning the other person's behavior - you are NOT calling it OK
Trusting the other person - trust comes from trustworthy behavior and repentance
Letting the other person off the hook
Expecting an apology - an apology is not necessary for true forgiveness
Forgetting - we are not God and do not have this capacity

Forgiveness is:

Life-changing
A decision only I can make - the feelings will catch up to the actions/decision
Obeying God
Freedom and release - I am right with God
A process - it often comes in layers
Living in a higher realm
Unilateral - it only depends on me, not the offender's response. Forgiveness takes one, reconciliation takes two.
A reflection of my maturity - I take responsibility for my actions and attitudes.

Forgiveness has nothing to do with thinking the wrong was "okay". Forgiveness is as much for you as it is for the WWS. Forgiveness is not necessarily deserved or earned, for if that were the case, all divorced spouses would go on harboring resentment. Restoration of the marriage is another matter, and for obvious reasons, changes need to be made or you will find yourself back in the same situation again. Amends cannot be made for certain wrongs, the best some people can do is demonstrate remorse and change. Forgiveness is an action that has a beginning point and continues, as a process. Forgiveness is neither cheap nor easy. Oftentimes we need to ask God for help in giving forgiveness, understanding it is much like a faith-action...we give it, and the feelings associated with forgiveness follow. It helps to realize our own fallibility in extending forgiveness, we need to understand that we too have had a need of forgiveness, perhaps not of this particular wrong, but of others. Forgiveness is separate and apart from requiring accountability, which is also a necessary action.

Eph,
Very well covered!

A rant:

I read the article, and was thinking about "just compensation".

Maintaining NC...meeting emotional needs? You've got to be kidding. THAT is considered "just compensation"? Doing the things every spouse is SUPPOSED to do whether infidelity is a factor or not??


"Hi, honey...sorry that I whored myself out for 3.5 years, exposing you to an array of possible diseases, and warping your psyche to the point where you're not even the same person anymore. Tell ya what...I will compensate you for all that."

"As of today, I won't have sex with OM again!"



THAT is my compensation? Sorry, but she can take that stuff and cram it in her [censored].

That is not compensation. I want to be REPAID for what I had to go through.

The mental stuff can never be compensated for. If/when it subsides, it will be due to the passage of time, and my own doing.



To my FWW:

I want permission to sleep with another woman. I choose who, when, where, how many times, etc. Her identity will be my secret. Period.
I likely will not ever do so, but I want the permission to do so. I shall not inform you if/when it happens. To do so would defeat the whole purpose. It will be more fun if you are oblivious.


Don't worry...after I'm done with her, I'll establish NC and be a nice guy again, even though you don't deserve any compensation for my fun at all.

This just brings us to "even".

I also believe forgiveness is not about forgiving the WS A. It is about releasing the hold the A has on you. If a BS is wrapped up in only the A and forgets about everything else in the marriage relationship, then how can a BS move forward in recovery? They can't - because they are being consumed by the WS A. What you do have control over is the now and future. That is what I realized and that is when I changed my perception of forgiveness and I was able to move forward in R. It took MC and MB (about two months) for me to get to the point where I shed the anger and opened my heart again to my WH. We went through EN questionnaire and recently did it again because needs change.

Great post, Eph.

LA