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From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:
"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I wish I would have done that rather than try to negotiate it for 9 months.
BS - me 56
XWH - 57
12/25/06 - Dday - WH promised NC. Plan A in effect. Thought we were in recovery.
6-3-07 - Dday#2 Found out NC never took place and A never ended. Found MB NC promised again, but WH would not write NC letter.
9/07 - Dday #3. Still lying and sneaking around. Plan B implemented
WH wants nothing to do with me
Divorced as of 12/09 after 36 years
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He is quite strict about people who don't follow his instructions. He has his secretary call the couple 2 days in advance of their appointment and if their assignment is not completed he postpones/cancels their appointment. If they don't finish their assignment [I assume this means the ones who slipped through] he spends the entire session discussing why they didn't finish the assignment and will not go forward until that issue is resolved.
He also says on page 87:
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
When he counsels a couple, he says they only should need about 8 sessions to achieve the goal of romantic love. The really tough ones might need 10 sessions. THATS IT. After that, he might see the couple 1x a year for a tune up.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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This is one instance where my intuition was right, even before I found MB.
NC is non-negotiable.
However, I learned the hard way not to attach conditions to it. Do not say "Write the NC letter or I will do ... blank". Do not threaten consequences if you find contact has occured.
Follow through with consequences if you find NC broken, but don't make threats before hand. Simply state that there can absolutely be no contact, and that things CANNOT move forward until then.
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During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers." Mel, this seems like a bit of a turn around to Dr H's original notion of exposure and plan A while negotiating an end to the affair.Personally, I like the change and the stronger approach, for I don't ever think I would be capable of calmly negotiating with my W to stop boiking other guy!  All Blessings, Jerry
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Jerry, I don't think he has changed anything. Plan A is to negotiate HOW the affair will end, not *IF* it will end. So this advice fits perfectly with what he has said before. I think we have assumed that his admonitions against making demands applied to this too, and it DID NOT.
The advice in this book is not new advice, btw, it is how he has counseled couples for 30+ years. He is simply describing his practices. And he has not had a private practice, other than the weekend people where he oversees coaches, for 15 years.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Another common misunderstanding is about POJA and the PORH. He does not advocate applying those principles to adutlery, even though, the "veterans" when I was new here, were telling newcomers they should POJA things like exposure and be "honest" about their spying techniques  "There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel, this seems like a bit of a turn around to Dr H's original notion of exposure and plan A while negotiating an end to the affair. It is not a turn around. You are still "negotiating" the end of the affair. The WS still can (and often does) continue the affair and then the BS moves into Plan B (if they are following Dr H's plan). The only difference with a demand is that there are no other options e.g. estabish NC and stay or go. There is no in-between.
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Negotiation doesn't mean the same thing as compromise. When you negotiate a bank loan, you walk into one branch and if you don't like what they have to offer, you walk out and go someplace else.
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Hmmm.....
Ok I saw the term NEGOTIATE in Dr H's original description of plan A and I always thought to my self, NO WAY, IT'S END IT NOW, TODAY OR HIT THE ROAD!!!
Is Dr H saying this now or not?????
In the past, a demand around here was equated with a disrespectful judgemnt and unreasonable.
Ok, maybe it's just semantics.
All Blessings,
Jerry
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Jerry, this is the advice he has been giving couples for 30+ years. The negotiation in Plan A is HOW to end the affair, not IF to end the affair.
He has told us to never make demands, but I never saw, before now, where he said EXCEPT in the case of an affair. Apparently, he has been telling his clients this for years!
These are not new principles, this is a clarification of the same principles he has used all along.
You would like this book! It is a good read.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks Mel, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers." I found this intriguing(sp) because while the statement IMHO is quite true and necessary, there is no timeline attached to when that demand should be made and how quickly to move to seperation or divorce. Dr H reccomends 6 months for a man to plan A, so where does the seperation and divorce initiate? Should the demand be made immediately or only after 6 months of plan A? And you're right, it sounds like a good read. But for me, it needs more clarification on the timing of all this. All Blessings, Jerry
Last edited by shinethrough; 02/09/10 01:56 PM.
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Jerry, it means the BS demand the WS end the contact right then. If the contact is not ended within a certain amount of time, the BS moves to Plan B or divorce or both. The timing of that would depend on several factors in the individual situation. Dr Harley has recommended 3-4 weeks for women and UP TO 6 months for men.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ok Mel, gotcha.
Going to think on this some more.
All Blessings,
Jerry
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Dr Harley has recommended 3-4 weeks for women and UP TO 6 months for men. Wow. Why the discrepancy between men and women?
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there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage
I'm going to change the sentence.
There are situations IN LIFE when demands may be necessary.
In an emergency.
When life or limb may be at risk.
When making demands is likely to mitigate a more dangerous outcome.
If demands are made too frequently, or under the wrong circumstances, they lose their effectiveness to stop a person from doing something dangerous/damaging.
There, I feel better. It's off my chest 
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There are situations IN LIFE when demands may be necessary. I like it! 
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Dr Harley has recommended 3-4 weeks for women and UP TO 6 months for men. Wow. Why the discrepancy between men and women? Here is what he says, IM. I want to add that in my personal opinion from being on this board, many men cannot come close to the 6 months without starting to break down, so it is very individual. Unfortunately, professional conflict avoiders use this quote to make Plan A a way of life in order to avoid conflict: The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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