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When I was a kid my father used to tell me that I didn't have to learn every single lesson from the School of Hard Knocks. Being a self destructive know-it-all I thought otherwise, of course, and instead of using common sense and listening to experience, I had to learn everything the hard way. What a long, hard road I traversed! It didn't make me a better person; it only took me much longer to achieve a happy, fulfilling, peaceful life.
I have learned the hard way that when I want something, I seek out someone who has achieved success and ask them how they did it. I no longer think I am smarter than those who have achieved what I have not.
I see the same thing over and over on this forum. I am not one to say "I told you so" but we see this so often that I am going to say "I told you so."
To the poor BS who told us last year "Do I believe in MB principles - yes. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship." when she was told that traveling jobs are the kiss of death: I told you so. She found out this week that the affair was back on again after multiple D-Days spanning 3 years.
To the other BS who didn't believe that it is not possible for affairees to continue to work together - and discovered the affair had never ended: I told you so.
To those of you who believe you can cut corners when recovering from an affair, take it from the QUEEN of corner cutters: YOU CANNOT CUT CORNERS IN THIS PROGRAM! All you do is cut your chances of survival.
It's one thing to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns small issues, but it is quite another to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns adultery, the most painful, traumatic event one can experience.
Why take that chance?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Forty years experience says this: "The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide." TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN..
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous" Dr Bill Harley
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And to those that say "the cookie cutter" approach doesn't work for everyone.......
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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When I was a kid my father used to tell me that I didn't have to learn every single lesson from the School of Hard Knocks. Being a self destructive know-it-all I thought otherwise, of course, and instead of using common sense and listening to experience, I had to learn everything the hard way. What a long, hard road I traversed! It didn't make me a better person; it only took me much longer to achieve a happy, fulfilling, peaceful life.
I have learned the hard way that when I want something, I seek out someone who has achieved success and ask them how they did it. I no longer think I am smarter than those who have achieved what I have not.
I see the same thing over and over on this forum. I am not one to say "I told you so" but we see this so often that I am going to say "I told you so."
To the poor BS who told us last year "Do I believe in MB principles - yes. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship." when she was told that traveling jobs are the kiss of death: I told you so. She found out this week that the affair was back on again after multiple D-Days spanning 3 years.
To the other BS who didn't believe that it is not possible for affairees to continue to work together - and discovered the affair had never ended: I told you so.
To those of you who believe you can cut corners when recovering from an affair, take it from the QUEEN of corner cutters: YOU CANNOT CUT CORNERS IN THIS PROGRAM! All you do is cut your chances of survival.
It's one thing to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns small issues, but it is quite another to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns adultery, the most painful, traumatic event one can experience.
Why take that chance? Join date: 4/10/01 Lord of the Lettuce: 2007 THAT explained SO MUCH! :p I don't know why, but when you say you were a hard-head about things.... I BELIEVE YOU! You can either dawdle for years and thrive on misery, or you can knock it the crap off, and do what works.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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[
Join date: 4/10/01
Lord of the Lettuce: 2007
THAT explained SO MUCH! :p
I don't know why, but when you say you were a hard-head about things....
I BELIEVE YOU!
You can either dawdle for years and thrive on misery, or you can knock it the crap off, and do what works. I skipped over that pesky little POJA part!  And you know what??? When I went to the MB seminar, they caught onto that on the FIRST DAY!! The FIRST DAY!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Lord of the Lettuce: 2007 
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Melody: "I told you so."
Me: "Yes, you did. And you were right."
Me: BW, 57 fWH: 63 (Taffy1) Serial cheater
Presently on the Recovery Road, in the Online program.
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I am sorry, friend.  I hate saying "I told you so!" 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I just LOVE saying I told you so, when I tell someone that their marriage can be great.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
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When I was a kid my father used to tell me that I didn't have to learn every single lesson from the School of Hard Knocks. Being a self destructive know-it-all I thought otherwise, of course, and instead of using common sense and listening to experience, I had to learn everything the hard way. What a long, hard road I traversed! It didn't make me a better person; it only took me much longer to achieve a happy, fulfilling, peaceful life.
I have learned the hard way that when I want something, I seek out someone who has achieved success and ask them how they did it. I no longer think I am smarter than those who have achieved what I have not.
I see the same thing over and over on this forum. I am not one to say "I told you so" but we see this so often that I am going to say "I told you so."
To the poor BS who told us last year "Do I believe in MB principles - yes. Do I think there is a tiny bit of wiggle room in some of them - yes. I think all situations are different, especially when it comes to some of the needs that are outside of the relationship." when she was told that traveling jobs are the kiss of death: I told you so. She found out this week that the affair was back on again after multiple D-Days spanning 3 years.
To the other BS who didn't believe that it is not possible for affairees to continue to work together - and discovered the affair had never ended: I told you so.
To those of you who believe you can cut corners when recovering from an affair, take it from the QUEEN of corner cutters: YOU CANNOT CUT CORNERS IN THIS PROGRAM! All you do is cut your chances of survival.
It's one thing to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns small issues, but it is quite another to go through the School of Hard Knocks when it concerns adultery, the most painful, traumatic event one can experience.
Why take that chance? OK.......the other side of the fence.... But you are not so brash to state, as I'm know Dr. Harley is not, that some modifications of the approach by certain couples has worked, and worked wonderfully. The forum is a select specific audience. One cannot judge it by its content alone. Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time.
H (me) = never wayward; age = 51; occup = attorney
W = never wayward; age = 49; occup = law office admin
Faith = Lutheran
S = age 20
S = age 19
D = age 17
Married 1990, first for both
Prior User Name "dec810" Marriage Builders 2001
"Evil will flourish, when good people do nothing"
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[
OK.......the other side of the fence....
But you are not so brash to state, as I'm know Dr. Harley is not, that some modifications of the approach by certain couples has worked, and worked wonderfully.
The forum is a select specific audience. One cannot judge it by its content alone. Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time. Actually, Dr Harley states no such thing and your very suggestion is dangerous. I posted his comments above and if you listen to the radio station, you know what he says about people who make "modifications" to his program. Read this and tell me if you think he believes that "modifications" are appropriate: "The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide." Does this sound like he believes in "modifications": Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time. And there are NO situations where a marriage can be recovered if the affairees continue to work together or if the conditions that led to the affair, ie: traveling, are left in place. We have seen what "modications" have achieved in just 2 cases with resumed affairs in the past 3 days. To think that there can be "modifications" like that reflects an ignorance about the nature of affairs. That is like saying that an alcoholic can "recover" while still drinking.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[
OK.......the other side of the fence....
But you are not so brash to state, as I'm know Dr. Harley is not, that some modifications of the approach by certain couples has worked, and worked wonderfully.
The forum is a select specific audience. One cannot judge it by its content alone. Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time. Actually, Dr Harley states no such thing and your very suggestion is dangerous. I posted his comments above and if you listen to the radio station, you know what he says about people who make "modifications" to his program. Read this and tell me if you think he believes that "modifications" are appropriate: "The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide." Does this sound like he believes in "modifications": Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts. Please give me some time to respond. BBQ and stuff all going on. Thanks !!
H (me) = never wayward; age = 51; occup = attorney
W = never wayward; age = 49; occup = law office admin
Faith = Lutheran
S = age 20
S = age 19
D = age 17
Married 1990, first for both
Prior User Name "dec810" Marriage Builders 2001
"Evil will flourish, when good people do nothing"
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OK.......the other side of the fence....
But you are not so brash to state, as I'm know Dr. Harley is not, that some modifications of the approach by certain couples has worked, and worked wonderfully.
The forum is a select specific audience. One cannot judge it by its content alone. Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time. Okay, dec. You tell us about some cases where Dr Harley's advice was modified and this worked wonderfully. The underlined passage does not make sense, BTW.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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[
OK.......the other side of the fence....
But you are not so brash to state, as I'm know Dr. Harley is not, that some modifications of the approach by certain couples has worked, and worked wonderfully.
The forum is a select specific audience. One cannot judge it by its content alone. Dr. Harley routinely and consistently states in his advice the term "generally" which means it does not suit everyone all the time. Actually, Dr Harley states no such thing and your very suggestion is dangerous. I posted his comments above and if you listen to the radio station, you know what he says about people who make "modifications" to his program. Read this and tell me if you think he believes that "modifications" are appropriate: "The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide." Does this sound like he believes in "modifications": Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts. �Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction).� Dr. Harley doesn�t say it is always an addiction. � In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery.� There are always exceptions to a �general� rule, as Dr. Harley acknowledges. �Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called, "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair. It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.� Dr. Harley �highly recommends� but doesn�t emphatically state with certainty in every circumstance �exposure�. As a matter of fact, he succinctly cautions against a blanket approach under certain circumstances (e.g. employment). �While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed.� Dr. Harley acknowledges that Plan A and B may not work in every instance. Therefore, deviating from those Plans may create success where sticking to them has not. � In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior.� Again, Dr. Harley does not give a blanket rule to follow without exception. Dr. Harley�s books and Articles are replete with case by case examples to apply his concepts, �usually�, by �recommendation�, �in general�, and �in many cases�, but I don�t believe he has ever stated to apply his concepts in every instance; and as a clinical psychologist, he probably cannot do so. Anyway, my $0.02. You serve a useful function on this board, please don't get me wrong.
H (me) = never wayward; age = 51; occup = attorney
W = never wayward; age = 49; occup = law office admin
Faith = Lutheran
S = age 20
S = age 19
D = age 17
Married 1990, first for both
Prior User Name "dec810" Marriage Builders 2001
"Evil will flourish, when good people do nothing"
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Dec you seem focused on persuading people not to expose affairs.
Is there a reason why?
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In this case everything Melody mentioned are true cases.
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Dec you seem focused on persuading people not to expose affairs.
Is there a reason why? No I do not. It is just that exposure appears to be subject to facts and circumstances, and to simply apply a general rule in that regard could be disastrous. The thread was started though to profess an application of a such a general rule without regard to specific facts and circumstances, or so I thought.
H (me) = never wayward; age = 51; occup = attorney
W = never wayward; age = 49; occup = law office admin
Faith = Lutheran
S = age 20
S = age 19
D = age 17
Married 1990, first for both
Prior User Name "dec810" Marriage Builders 2001
"Evil will flourish, when good people do nothing"
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