LINY:

you said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you have this drinking problem before or after the A? The reason I ask this, is because it wouldn't be too bad of a POJA your H offered. HOWEVER, I don't think his intention (only you can be for sure) was to better your M or you: it was fingerpointing in a warped way. "You stop drinking and I'll stop drugging and f'ing this girl." WTF?!?!? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let me be fair about my drinking. Not only has he mentioned his concern before this A, but I have, too. My Dad was a severe alcoholic (died of cancer at 52) and his Mom was one too (died of Hep at 50-something), and I recognize my propensity to 'self-medicate.' I've always used it as an escape tool. When I'm very distressed, I drink more frequently. But even then, rarely more than a bottle of wine (standard bottle, not the magnum.)

His criticism/concerns for my drinking did step up w/i the last year. Of course, this last year has been a personal doozy for me. Mom died at 61 Apr 03; my job/mgt posiiton w/ company I've been with for past 11 years was challenged (behind scenes/secretly, but I knew)bc of my damaged rep from former boss (I'd been blissfully unaware how OM had exagerated our encounters and the frequency and to whom - God that really sticks with you!) and bc I'd become a harsh, crass, hard-hitting MFr and lost interest in keeping a professional,feminine image; many troubles w/ S's behavior at home, school and socially; continued threat to lose my job for monthss; owed a ton in taxes last Apr, but borrowed to pay, etc.

There's more, but the gist of it is, I took a good long look at myself last Nov (when I thought it'd 'come to a head')and decided I couldn't be doing things right if so many things were going wrong. Made a decision to be a 'kinder, gentler' Me. Quit cursing. Looked for things to compliment in others. Showed the compassion I'd always felt in my heart, but rarely showed. Read tons of books to re-explore and re-awaken my spiritual side. Dieted and took off about 20 lbs (This was getting easy, as stress 'helps' w that!) Curbed my critical tongue. Resolved to quit wasting energy on petty things. Hug my S, D, H and friends and tell them I love them each day....

I was becoming a new person! No, I was restoring myself back to the pleasant, optimistic, good person I had once been, but hoping in a better way.

But to find out this Sep that H had already started the 'friendship' w OW 2 years ago, that in the midst of my cirsis in Nov, he was bailing her out of jail, that when I almost lost my job in Jan, he was attending her court date, that while I struggled to go to work every day, fearful every day that I might lose my job Feb through Jun, he was visiting her regularly at the county jail to comfort her and get to know her and 'falling in love' with her. Wow, that's a blow.

Yep. Tough year. But especially this has been a very tough month. Yep, I have definitely self -medicated.

I see my problem drinking as a problem waiting to become a big problem. There are healthier ways to escape. But to be frank, I'm not certain it's another project I can take on right now.

BTW, I'm pretty certain he's not drugging. Of course, if you'd asked me a month ago, I'd have been absolutely certain he'd NEVER have an A, let alone 'falling in love' with her and struggling with 'which one', either. These are things that had NEVER occurred to me... so, I'm not certain of much anymore, that's for sure.

I'm honestly becoming exhausted.

So, when and if we actually get to point where we actually work together, I think a POJA on the drinking is reasonable. Not now, though. I've got bigger fish to fry.

Thanks so much for the wise input.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>

Wow! Read your other thread--and I have traits of both of you put together--scary, huh? I'm "resturrounding"!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seems the both of you have escape issues. We, here, or any other site or friends, can only offer opinions. However, you both need counseling. Whether it be IC and/or MC. (Probably both.) Have surround invest in the Harleys or IC rather than the OW--it'll be the best change of portfolios he'll ever make!!!!!

Like the Knight, I am also a huge--HUGE stuffer. Only learning now, in the past year or so, how to deal with this.

I didn't want to answer your question on your other thread--didn't want to influence opinions either way. I know that sounds stupid, but, IMHO, I do NOT believe bringing surround here is at all detrimental to both of your recoveries and collective recovery--IF HE EVER SENDS A NC LETTER, DAGNABIT!!!!! It further promotes honesty--something you both need openly, like you even stated in your post. But, again, you need more than just this site.

LINY-
such a great guy you are and your w is lucky!

Thanks for all the help and interest.

H is 'taking a break' tonight... TMI, I think, not really ready.

that's a disappointment, but that's the way it is...

til later,

Thanks, restart. It's a struggle many days (like today) to try and convince myself of that.

I do believe that your WS and my xWS must be working the same "Recovery" program! You know, that one that says men counsel men, and women...women? OH, but of course the rules don't apply to our guys! My xWS met his OW at their 12 stp recovery meetings. He just started by trying to help out this poor young woman who had been abused and never had anything in her life. My xWS was 47 and the OW 21. Nothing physical...to start with. She started calling our home asking him to come and help deal with her fiance who had relapsed. She had a brother living with her who could help. After this happened a few times...I suggested that he may be rescuing or enabling her, and that maybe she could go to Al-anon like the rest of us. My spouse had been going to meetings 5 nights a week. He started staying longer and longer afterwards. "I need a social life, too". Would never take me to any of their social events. Eventually he told me one day that he had found a place to rent and was moving out. And yes, he was moving the OW in, but that it was nothing sexual, she just needed a roof over her head. At a later point in time, he said that she would make him feel guilty or responsible if he didn't help her out. (What about guilt and responsibility to our marriage?)We started marriage counseling after he moved out, and he asked to move back within one month. He did and we continued counseling. He would lie about having an extra job...lie about where he was...but of course I wanted to believe him...had gotten use to believing him because he had been in Recovery for 6 years and had been working a good program.
Come to find out, he started the sexual part of the affair after he'd been moved back in for 4 months and when we were still in counseling. The first time the affair was finally confirmed, beyond a doubt, the OW was 6 months pregnant, probably with my WS's child. (It turned out to be his child.) I divorced him as he wasn't coming clean about anything. He moved into an apartment but kept calling and coming over asking for reconciliation. He was at the hospital when OC was born, moved OW and OC in with him afterwards, because "I can't have my child out on the streets". Child was born with Down Syndrome. So, WS couldn't leave right away as he "Wasnt sure that OW could adequately take care of the baby." This was probably true since she was so self centered and could barely take care of herself! But, I had been willing to accept the OC into our lives. So,there was another option for contact...without remaining with the OW. So, here it is 2 1/2 years later. He's still with OW and OC. Still making excuses...still wanting reconcilation. I'm moving on...dating others, etc. In hindsight...you might want to calmly and firmly state to your WS that you know that his behaviors...choices..are not in keeping with working his own recovery program...or in OW working hers. That there is nothing in the program that supports that type of behavior as being helpful to others. In fact, it ends up hurting other people because it delays someone getting the type of help they really need. That you can't accept him making choices that are detrimental to all involved. Or, maybe..that it is too hard to watch him continue to make choices which hurt him, his wellbeing. That your acceptance of his behaviors, is really doing him an injustice...harm...and that you can't continue to be a part of doing him harm, by accepting his excuses for contacts with the OW.

Just my $.02. Bless you. This is such a difficult situation. It's so hard to believe that someone you love...and you thought loved you...could treat you like this...and try to make excuses. You're in my thoughts.

HF- thanks for the empathy. I sure feel for you, too!

Those of us who want to believe will always find someone or something to believe in, I guess - I sure hope it will turn out to be my own H and a rebuilt, stronger marriage and self. I know I am developing a better belief in myself than I've had for the last month....

His brain is starting to work - but there is still fog. My own stamina is flagging after a month of this! How have you made it for so long, I've got to admire. That's not something I anticipate I could do.

I tried hard to understand, but H's deceptions are like a malicicious virus that has invaded every aspect of his life! He's the only one who can treat it, I realise that now, even tho I still feel the desire want to help him, I'm finally seeing that only H can do that.

I'm just holding on to my sanity right now.

Mornin' restart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried hard to understand, but H's deceptions are like a malicicious virus that has invaded every aspect of his life!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it! Like any illness, he's gotta want to help himself, before anyone else can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's the only one who can treat it, I realise that now, even tho I still feel the desire want to help him, I'm finally seeing that only H can do that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is one of the reasons why I disagree with the other posts on your other thread about having your WH here. (Respectfully, disagree.) I understand YOU need a place to vent etc., but if you are already "venting" to him and trying to get through to him, what difference does it make if you do it to him or us here? (And I'm NOT saying stop--please don't. You need that communication (plan a even if there is no response) BUT the difference is, maybe he'll get enough 2x4's or insight or whatever to wake him up from this f'ing dream world he is in (and nightmare you are in) and realize that his M and you are first priority. THIS is why I said I see no harm in him coming here. (If I wasn't whacked with 2x4's, I wouldn't be where I am. But everyone is different.

Not to threadjack, here, but HF, are you divorced now? So sorry to hear about your sit.

Hope you two can continue to support each other in your similar sits.

LINY:

Had sincerely hoped the fog had lifted, but am afraid not.

he's just interested in 'normal' - me plA'g and him comfortable enough.

My gut says there is still C- he's not honest with me - insists that he got over suspecting my affair when it really was and that I should too.

I softly pointed out that his method didn't really work after all? Otherwise, why would we be here now? He gets quiet and won't take it further.

my strength is not what I thought....

Even when he finally cuts her out of his life, I still have to keep this up? I'm exhausted!

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>

Yes, I am divorced from my WS. I didn't find MB site until after all this stuff happened. The OC was born a month before our divorce was finalized. We continued to talk about and try to work on reconcilation for the next year. I had even met and spent time with the OC. But, it was all talk and no action on WS's part. I wanted to believe him because I loved him. And, I do believe that people can change. I had seen a big change in him when he got into Recovery. So I knew change could happen. I found it interesting that, although he never started drinking and drugging again through all this, his behaviors had reverted back to how he was when he was using. In fact, I thought for awhile that he had relapsed. It was kind of like he used an affair to escape life and its responsibilties, just like he had used drugs and alcohol before. Fortunately we had no children together. I do, however, miss my two stepchildren. The youngest calls me now and then. My sons overheard my step-son(who is one year younger than the OW) tell his Dad, "Dad I love you, but I have lost all respect for you."
This was so sad because my xWS had spent a long time rebuilding their relationship when he first got into Recovery. My xWS was wrong in having the affair,but basically the OW has him by his...gonads. Obviously, he allows it! Many who know the OW said they think she got pregnant on purpose because she knew he would never abandon his own child. It's hard for me to believe that someone would do that...use another innocent being to get their way. But, after being on this site for awhile,and going through what all of us have had to.. not much surprises me anymore. Blessings on your Journey. I just wish there weren't so many potholes along the way!

restart...hang in there!!! If not for the M, for YOU! Your strength will come through your convictions and His guidance. I was on the "other side" but I can certainly tell you both of us have bad, indifferent and good days. (Besides the last few days), the good days are becoming more frequent.

I didn't mention it, but it's with *ANY* relationship--HONESTY. You pretty much already figured that one out. But honesty not only with each other, with yourselves. (That means you too with your own issue, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) Who does he think he's fooling? Certainly not you! Is he trying to convince himself? Probably. Most WS do that while STILL in the fog.

I wish there were a magical spell or something...there isn't...there's NOTHING magical about an A. There's NOTHING good that RESULTS from an A.

He needs to know simply: You and your M or the A.

Continued prayers for ya!

Confirmed today they are stil in C.

He is sad about hurting me, kids, self, OW, but not enough to do the right thing.

He said,"I can't ever begin to tell you how sorry I am!"

I chuckled, "yes, you can, I give you permission right now!"

I'm not really certain what to do next...

The rest of the post:

The reason he called is bc I got his cell phone records today and called one of the numbers that seemed to call and be called frequently. A woman ansered and I hung up.

Turned out to be OW.

Phone records and bank record indicate it has never ended, despite his assurances it had. Not only had she continued to call him, but he had continued his pattern of calling her and supporting her.

I do still want a good marriage, but this I cannot allow.

I showed calm and strength and logic through the conversation. I even pointed out the oh-so-obvious: you have two paths in front of you. One leads you back to self respect and restores your children's and fiends respect in you. The other is the one that stole everything you value from you and make regaining the respect of those around you impossible.

I was not unkind, but spoke softly and sincerely.

bc I AM sincere.

He said he wants to quit hurting everyone, just wants to go away from everyone and everthing. I told him there was an answer, an easy one. Then quit.

He also asked me why I'd never calle her. This one stumped me. Why would he ask me that? A reason to get mad at me? A reason to protect her from me? For me to take control and MAKE him do what's right? For me to take the reigns and put everything right, so he doesn't have to be "the bad guy?"

I told him bc if I did call her, and it fixes things, or if I made him do what he must, then he is valueless to me, and I don't want that. You hold all the cards here, H, it's a choice you must make or it is worthless. Yes, I recogonize that I contributed to whatever left the hole that she could fill, but YOU are the one who made these decisions and YOU are the one who has to choose to make it right.

I apologized for all the realities I mentioned, which were quite a few, BTW, to include the money wasted (a lot).

I told him I was having a real problem understanding what the turmoil is over. He reminded me that no matter what choice he made, someone would get hurt. I reminded him that everyone is being hurt anyway. Forgive me, H, but you are hurting everyone you touch with the decisions you are making every day!

I told him he's a better man than that. He chuckled self-deprecatedly and said thanks (I know he's right in the middle of acknowledging his errors and weakness and doesn't feel like much of a man at the moment. I've been there, myself, y'know.)

He pointed out that I don't have much sympathy for OW - that she's had it tough and it's tough now and it'll be tougher for her. I said, "you're right, I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. To me, she is the cause of all the pain and damage in my life, your life and our family's life. She is hurting everyone I know. No, I don't have sympathy for her. <a pause> Tell me, H, I know you must feel she's got redeeming qualities, or you'd never feel this way but, can you name anyone in her life that she's touched that she's done anything other than hurt?"

"no. no one."

I told him, It comes dome to this: the difference between a real man and a piece of sh*t is that a real man makes choices that follow what SHOULD be done, rather than based on what he WANTS.

I'm all over the place here.

He said he appreciated my strength and the dose of reality - that it's more like the old FWW/BS. I told him he likes it because it's comfortable, not because it's admirable. You mean the one acting like a doormat lately? Well, I'm sorry if I've come off too harsh or if these are some things you dont' want to hear, but they need to be said. I'm probably not the right personfor it, but it needed to be done. Hey, but I'm not going going back to 'Old me' - that didn't work what I want is to be a better person and a better partner.

I still wonder if he'd 'egged' me into this to have a reason to get mad at me, tho...

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>

At some point logic takes over and you cut your losses...

absolutely and especially with an addict....

your husbands attempts to recue are futile and damaging to his own marriage....

there isn't a treatment clinic, specialist, or substance abuse counselor on this planet that believes hin "help" does anything but perpetuate the cycle...

the ability to be rescued by him one day only to repeat the same behaviors and patterns the next is proof enough...

his so named compassion is skewed...for his compassion feeds and enables her...
the demons are of partly of her own doing...and partly because of the addiction and addicitive behaviors and patterns...

no one
no one
no one
can change her or stop her....
and yet he continues to try...
why..
what is his gain..
what is his gain at her expense...
where is his compassion for
her?
his wife?
real compassion that quits saving...

and really and truly enough about him
enough...

If I were you I would have no choice but to view her and her lifestyles dangerous to me and my family...

that you should legally pursue no contact with her and your children....EVER EVER EVER

that if he ever does cut ties...her drug behaviors and rescue seeking will escalate and perhaps place you and your family in danger as she becomes desperate...which is the only way for her to break this cycle...and she is the only one who can...

he can't save or change her..
you can't change him....

so you must do what you must do in your universe...
to keep it healthy
to keep it logical...
there is great irony that every single person that has ever tried to save some one from their addictions has failed...the choice has to be and always has been within the person themselves..

yet somehow your husband believes he is different...
he holds no more power than anyone...else yet he continues to operate as if...
he is poetry in motion...and his noble acts are greatly misplaced..putting his family in danger...
yet he can't see that..
and turns on his family...
very sad...

so you also "must do"...to protect you and your family from that....

no more about him and her
it always has been about what you will or will not have in your life.


ark

Forgot to add that during the afternoon yesterday, when H asked me why I had never called OW, I wondered too why I'd not confronted her. It really is more in line with my character.

I decided to call her on my way home from work (on the pre-paid cell he bought her):

Me: Hi, OW, this is BW, WH's wife.

no response

Me: You want to talk to me?

OW: What do you want to talk about about?

Me: Do you have any idea how much pain WW is going thru?

OW: Oh, BS, I never wanted to hurt anybody. You know all I'm going thru and all I'm trying to do. He's been there for me and been really good to me. I never wanted anyone to get hurt. I don't want him to lose his children over this. I told him he should stay with you.

Me: Wel---

(I hear a phone ring in the background)

OW: I told him he needs to leave me and get his children back. Don't lose your children.

Oh, and, BS, please you know about me and just let me say this one thing,

Me: Ok, I...

OW: One addict to another, and you know you are, and if there's anything that has always bothered him most, it's that you're an alcoholic, and it's been hard for him, get some help. I know, I know how hard it is. That would help him more than anything. OH, and BS, another thing, just don't ***** and nag and mother him, he needs a friend, someone to talk to, he needs a friend - I know. He's agood man,and he's going to do the right thing, I know. I know him.

Me: OW, I...

OW: My minutes are running out on this phone...
(nobly) BS, I give him back to you. You can have him. I won't call him, I'll help him stay with you. I don't want to hurt anybody anymore...

Me: OW, ...

OW: my minutes, I can't talk about this anymore. Goodbye.


BH had told me earlier in the day that she'd agreed with him that he had to do the right thing and not lose the respect of his children. Said she told him if he left me for her that he'd just end up resenting her for her part in all this. He sees it as her sacrificing.

Looks like the voice of experience to me. Is it probable that she's wrested a Married man away from his wife before and lived with the results?

This is a cheap victory. Doesn't feel right.

I really hated discovering H has been, with forethought and deliberation, (read maliciously)continued to lie to and deceive me.

I did not feel good having her 'left me have him back' - it leaves me with that greasy feeling all over like if she hadn't, he'd have never done it himself.

I can agreed with other posts seen here: her 'letting him go' makes me feel like cheaps seconds - like he's settling for me.

restarting.

All her talk is just meandering waffle.

Let me translate;

"Your husband is out of money and in love with me. I am tired of him because he is out of money. He is all whiny and grabby and I hate that, so I need to dump him. With that in mind, I thought I could sound all magnanimous by saying that I am giving him back. Besides all that, I have found a new sugar daddy to suck the life out of."

Her comments about your addiction where just to be mean and make you feel small.

In all honesty, I strongly suspect that she has a new victim to work now. As for your addiction, yours is still young and treatable. Hers is much further along. Her chances of a recovery before she burns out are slim.

For your sake, and the sake of your marriage and family, stop drinking. Stop so that drinking can no longer be used as a crutch, or to hold you for ransom as an excuse for your husband to not address his actions. Besides all that, if you don't treat it soon, then you will find yourself in a position far worse than the one you are currently in.

All the best,
Gimble

doubt that.

there's been regular contact.

I think one of her character traits is knowing how to turn things around to be a nobel victem. her own Mother warned my H of this: why are you wasting your time on a crack-wh? He just tho't mother was cruel and didn't really understand...

Yesterday, I had the day off, but had not told H - I drove by hotel where she stays to see if he was there. I was currently on c-phone w H, telling him I had flagged Fri and Sat as Vacation days, so I was just heading home.

A call beeped in, he put me on hold, came back. "where are you right now?" in a non-committal way.

"on my way home, why?"

"you know why - that was OW - calling to tell me you drove by her room. You lied to me. You just told me you were taking a half day off to spend with me and you're checking up on me"

"you don;t like being lied to?"

"no, I don't. I've never liked it"

"yeah. Me either."

"quit with these stupid games"

"this is no game, h, you got us here. And if you're not taking her calls, why'd you pick up?'

"she called from a pay phone. It was number I don't recognize"

(I turn the car around and head back to hotel area)"that's funny, I don't see any pay phones around here and I don't see her. And how would she know I drove past her room, if she's at a pay phone?"

"look, she is. just quit these games!"

"H, I did plan to see if you were there, but I also had another plan if you weren't. I tho't if she could see me, meet me, have a cup of coffee and tlk with me, she could see I more than just the b*-er, nagger and real person that she's hurting, and you know I can't see her as anything more than the person who's ruined my life."

"she won't do it. she can't handle it"


So anyway, you can see there's still alot of contact, despite all we've gone through and all the promises.

Does he still love me? He says so. He even acts so. But he IS still keeping her door open. He hates that I check up on him and of course that's the clearest indication he's hiding things.

he knows it, I know it - we all know it.

We had a nice dinner out last night and a nice evening. We'll see how today goes....

Phone records indicate he hasn't stopped. Even as he tells me he loves me, H still outright lies to me. He has not changed his phone numbers - not that that matters, when I changed his cell, he just gave it to her again.

This really hurts.

What do we have without trust?

Where is the wonderful man I married?

Will he ever come back?

I am getting to where I really don't care about anything else I get out of this marriage if I can't have honesty. I hate doubting everything. It is not my personality.

Am I just depressed today, or is this normal?

restart...think it's time to sit down with him and write that dang NC letter together. And if he doesn't, write one for him, then show it to him. (Maybe, show it here first for some opinions.)

NC is long overdue here.

Hi, restarting.

I am sorry for your pain. I know it is very real and immediate.

In an earlier post, I pushed you hard to get your finances under your control as much as possible.

The reasons are many, but not only is your husband stupidly involved in an affair ($$$), but he is involved with a drug addict ($$$$$$$) that knows how to manipulate ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$) her victims.

I don't know this person, but I would venture a fairly safe bet that your husband is NOT her first victim. I bet there have been at least 5. This is what you do with 'friends' when you are an addict.

The second most common occurrence is for the druggy to 'turn on' the 'friend' to the wonder of illicit drugs. A nice side effect (for the druggy) is a new source of money and drugs to 'share'.

The third most common victim of the addict is the 'Well doer'. They are usually an easy target. They addict is all needy and vulnerable (men fall headlong for that). "If I had just a bit of money and if I could get just a little fix to make me feel better, I am sure I could quit." How about "Can you pick me up x,y,z, at the store for me, I just can't afford it, oh and could you spare $20 too? Really!? Thanks!. You are so sweet. I just wish there was something I could do for you...." As the relationship develops, the phone calls start coming - "Oh baby, can you help? I am sick. I know I need to quit, but I am just having such a hard time. Can you help me get by just this one time?" This goes on, time and time again, ad nauseam.

If the victim (a good solid, albeit uninformed, well doer) is dumb enough, then they can easily move from third place to second place then first, consuming all their resources in the process.

This is also why I wrote the translation that I did. I know it is frightening, but it is probably not far from the truth.

Your husband has made a bad choice. He is, unlike most people involved in affairs, likely a victim as well.

God willing, at some point in time, he is going to recognize that he has been used. This is going to be very hard on his pride. Not only has he had sex with this girl, but he has tried his best to 'help her' all the while getting mixed signals from his brain thinking that he loves her. When he realizes that he has been played, he will either get very repentant and angry about it, or he will crash and burn and be frightened to approach you.

You can not condone the behavior, and you must be firm with him on EVERY POINT. You must guard your finances so that there will be something left.

Don't be needy or grabby around him. This behavior in the other woman is already beginning to 'turn him off'. Don't let it keep him from you.

Clean your act up, dry your tears and put on a good face. Clean your house, do whatever it takes to BE STRONG. Be the light on the hill. BE A SHARP CONTRAST to the other woman's life. Right now, his dim wit can't see a lot of difference between what he is doing and home. Make the difference glare.

The hardest part - stop obsessing over the other woman for right now. You can come back to that part later. You must learn to emotionally detach yourself from the situation right now, and you need to do it sober.

I am pulling for you, restarting. I know I have told you hard things in other posts. I am not trying to be mean to you. You simply must become steely for a while for the sake of your family.

If my posts are more than you can handle, tell me to back off. I will not be hurt. I promise.

I am not an expert on the Marriage Builders principles. Others can give you advice on the MB plans. I do know a bit about addicts, users and abusers, so I thought I might be able to help out some with that part.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble and NINY: (long post, be prepared)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your husband has made a bad choice. He is, unlike most people involved in affairs, likely a victim as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is something I know instinctively - I KNOW he is a victim of her and her addiction and its manipulative abilities to both her and her on him! -It still doesn't reprieve him of his own choices , tho.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it's time to sit down with him and write that dang NC letter together </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC is long overdue here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. LONG overdue. see below.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can not condone the behavior, and you must be firm with him on EVERY POINT. You must guard your finances so that there will be something left.

Don't be needy or grabby around him. This behavior in the other woman is already beginning to 'turn him off'. Don't let it keep him from you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Odd, but that's what seems to have made him finally 'sit up and take notice' - when I became my 'old self', but with a more caring and diplomatic twist (thanks to SAA and PlA exercise input) and just introduced him to reality....

Today, that 'gut feeling' had me by the very entrails... something's not coming together, something's not quite right. I kept trying to fight the doubts, but on the heels of yesterday's deception regarding the payphone # vs her cell.... I felt I had to go with it.

He had a job to be at this morning at my workplace (I am off on vacation) we had had wonderful SF the previous evening, and he left for work chipper (replacing a fan motor in an AC unit). He called, kinda mushy, said he'd thought about it, and we do need a website (I'd been mentioning repeated for months) bc a contact sid he'd found H and our Co thru a websearch, but was disappointed we didn't have a website.

He proudly invited me to work on one. I was so very touched, but, again, the doubts: why so giving? why so involving? is it real this time????

I had errands to run, wanted out of the house. Oh, and forgot to mention that I'd dressed and put on makeup b4 he left today, and it had worried him, so that goes into the play, too, as he apparrently suspected I had plans to follow him or seek out OW.... (I think. No confirmation)

Shortly after he left, he found excuses to call several times, each time on the home phone, to just 'chat' - also a bit out of character. - could be the excellent SF from previous nght, could be 'coming out of the fog', could also be checking to make sure I'm at home and not following him or seeking her....

Again, something not right.

I go to Walmart once, and call. For me, to verify he is where he says he is (yes I admit the paranoia).

I am still unsettled and can't put my finger on it when I get home...

I come home and check posts - why do I get such relief here? Still unsettled. call him again.

He's left, and I ask how long b4 arriving and what route he's taking home. Answer SEEMS to be reasonable, but, still something 'not quite right.' Can't place it.

So, I ask if I picked up everthing I should have and what he'd like to do with the afternoon. Very chipper, makes a request. Honestly, I need a reason to be on cell, rather than home. Says where he is on route home, but it still doesn't sound right. I make a decsion, to see if he's been honest: sit at the intersection to our neighbor and watch to see which direction he comes from.

I'm a shaking, nervous wreck as I sit. "please, God, let me wrong about this! I don't want to kick him out!"

Call and suggest we do yard work and put in some perennials - how long b4 you get home? "15 min" oh - the waiting is intermidable! - Please come from the N, please come from the N!

Finally, his van turns in - from the S. The OW direction. I am crushed. drive home shrugging on a 'nice face'. Want to cry, but am out of tears. I'm done with being hurt. take on the 'oh well' attitude that what is, is - I'll deal with the rest later.

At home, I ask about the neighbor's replacement and verify the amount of cash he should have (and take into account our dinner last evening and his fill-up this morning) and start doing his laundery. "I've got a pretty full load here, but what's the shape of those pants you're wearing?" This means he must empty the pants to wash.

I find a way to check his wallet for the amount of cash that should be there and contemplate checking his phone. Can't without ensuring detection.

Finally, DS leaves on errand. I putz about for another 5-10 minutes, then can't wait any longer.

I sit down and ask, "Is there something you want to tell me?" H, upbeat, chearful "No. No, like what?"

M, calm, firm "There's something you need to tell me, right?"

H, getting aggitated, "Maybe there's something YOU need to tell ME, huh?"

M, "How DID you spend your morning?"

H, " I TOLD you, went to your workplace, worked on AC, came home. That's it."

M, "There something you need to tellme. I already know."

H, aggravated, "What do you know? What do you KNOW?"

M, " this isn't about me, it's about you telling me."

H, "OK. OW called."

M, "and"

H, aggitated, "I didn't take it"

M, "hm. tell me."

H, I'm telling you I didn't take it. She called, but I didn't take it."

M,"what about the money?"

H, " what about the Money?"

M, "where'd it go?"

H, "all the money's there, I did what I said, I went where I said."

M, "shall we count it?"

H, " that's it. I can't take this. I'm leaving."

M, "yes, you've made that choice"

H, "yes, I did, I'm going."

M, "yes, you are."

H, " so, you looked in my wallet and my phone?"

M, "Yes, I did"

On and on and on, you get the picture.

I told him he has to leave. I can't and won't continue to live this way.

I told him to get what he need together, that I would go for a drive while he did it. He still seemed determined to go through with it and me too. I did, however mention that when he'd left, I'd expect him to not talk to me or see me, please call if you have to come by the house to pick something up, bc I don't want to be here.

I grabbed my bag to take the drive.

He followed me out. Got in the car with me. I told him, "I love you. I really wanted theis work. I really wanted to believe you. But I can't do this any more. You must leave. Your actions are depleting the love and respect I have for you. I can't afford to keep giving that up. You have to leave before I quit loving you, or there will be nothing left to rebuild on. Get out of car, I have to go." ( my hands shaking, but my voice and emotions calm)(essentially a plan B w no letter)

H- "what does it take? I don't want to go!" "there's no relationship there, no sex, I just don't wanta leave her hanging.."

M, "then you have to go."

He started to argue that it didn't really take him that long to get home...

I stopped him. "Honey, that's not what this is about." "what, then?!""You let her call, you took the call, you gave her money, you lied to me. again.Please, just understand that what you're doing is taking all the love and respect I have for you and draining it out of me. Please, just rspect my request an do this?"

"I'm not leaving. What do you want?"

"look, just please respect my wishes, here, please. I can't do this any longer. I'm losing love and respect for you. If we are going to have anything left to build on, we have to do this.'

H, "what do I need to do, what?"

M, "we've been over this. NC and that means any, change phones numbers, Know that I must have absolute assuarnce of NC, NC letter ending it once and for all, know that I'll keep checking and allow it - encourage it, work on our marriage, councelling."

A nod for each. "I know what I've got to do, and I'll do it." He went into the house.

I left, but worried. "I know what I have to do" has also been what he said b4 the false suicide attempts of the past.

I turned around and came home. He was drating the NC letter.

He has changed his cell # and has consented to have the business line forwarded to my cell ofr the next two weeks or month, to make sure she doesn't get to him.

He says he's not leaving, he's sticking close by my side. Especially for the rest of this weekend.

He still gets a little ticked, but calm much more quickly.

Gimble. I can always take it. I am strong. I welcome your type of post, too. But I still need mushy ones.

NINY: thanks so much , both of you, for the 2x4s!

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>