I am a newbie here, but my sitch isn't new. I am a BS, my W is nearly WAW. M-10 years, no kids. In Oct. W dropped the bomb, said she no longer loved me, was unhappy, and had done too much for too long in our R. I had been struggling with my art metal biz, and she made most of the money. No kids was her idea, due to lack of financial security. Since the bomb, I have been working like mad to improve my shortcomings, getting fit, doing all the housework, cooking dinners every night. But M was not improving. On Valentines day, a good friend called, and said that her H was leaving her, after 17 years of M. She said that her H & my W talked several times a day. I told her she was crazy, as we had just discussed whether W talked to him lately, & she said she hadn't. In order to prove friend was wrong, I looked at cell bills, and completely lost it. W was talking to OM on average 1 1/2 hours a day, sometimes more, spread between 5-8 calls a day, 150 calls in one month. That is her calling him. Her average phone usage was 4000 minutes a month, so obviously he was calling her as much. I told OM's W about the call freq. and she was also stunned. She ended up confronting her H after a week or so. I said nothing to W as I tried to find more evidence. OM obviously told my W, because W cancelled online cell billing last week. At this point, it was painfully obvious that she was hiding something.

On Sunday, W brought up OM by saying " I know it seems like a coincidence that G&L (OM & W) are having problems at this time..." I said, yes, it is a curious coincidence, in light of your call freq. , the fact that you cancelled online bill, and the fact that you started talking to him that much before you told me you were unhappy. She said I invaded her privacy w/ online bill, & said I used her ss# w/out her permission. I quickly pointed out that I had in fact asked her when I signed up, 1 yr ago, after going over our plan minutes. I then calmly pointed out that I revealed her secrecy, not invaded her privacy. I said that the fact that she lied called into question her overall honesty about all topics, and the fact that she cancelled online bill made me think she was hiding something. I said that her lie was the most hurtful thing she has done to me, and regardless of her plans, I deserved respect as a human being. I then pointed out (calm all the while) that regardless of how she viewed her relationship with OM, he obviously could be seeing things differently. She said that OM'sW had pointedly asked re PA, and if my W wanted PA. I bet W all of my money (no big deal) that OM could not would not say he didn't want PA. W became introspective (briefly) as if she hadn't considered how he viewed their R. She apologized for lying. I said that appreciated her apology, and that I was not considering D, and if she would cease com w/ OM, we could begin to work on our R. She said she didn't know what she wanted. After asking if she lied about anything else, I pointed out that I was ready willing and able to meet her P & E needs, if she could make up her mind, but that I demanded the respect and decency that she would show to a stranger or other family member. I again said how deeply her lies had cut me, (no weeping), and said that I was deeply disappointed in her lack of respect. We let the words soak in for a little while as W busied herself for her weekly granny visit.

I have taken great pains to harden myself to the task of regaining her love. I realize that she is not seeing things clearly, and she says she does not know what she wants. She insists that she and OM are "just friends" and yet she chose to lie to me about talking to him. He has been a friend for 13 years, and was a groomsman in our wedding. Obviously, I wouldn't care if she was talking to him, so her lie stunned me into believing the ugly truth.

Those are the jumbled facts of my sitch. I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of SAA. W & I have gone to two MC sessions, and she has seen her IC weekly since Nov. W agreed to MC next week. I am hoping for some veteran advice on this process. I need a plan to work on this sitch, beyond my plan for self betterment. I am 100% committed to working on M. W is 100% disinterested. She moved into spare room last night. I showed her no tears, but let her know I preferred her company. I told her it was her decision to walk out the door, but that I was ready and willing to work on our probs if she decided to cease com w/ OM. She said she was sorry for hurting me, and said she was trying to work things out. I said I would not allow myself to suffer, despite the pain she was inflicting with her lies.

Hi, Forged.

I am glad you are here.

Folks, Forged is an acquaintance of mine, and I asked him to read all of Dr. Harley's articles on this site, and make his first post. He has the basics pretty much down, but is just now becoming familiar with this site.

I would like to ask Pep, Bob, Weaver, Noodle, WAT and anyone else that can to please work with him. He already has my ear and advice, I would really appreciate if you would lend yours as well.

Thanks very much.

Gimble

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

Welcome Forged,

I would suggest that you consider Plan A as your current plan of attack on this issue. Please do some reading up on it. It requires that you avoid LB's (I think you know what they are right?), and that you try and meet her needs as best you can. You have already expressed to her your willingness to forgive her and to address your issues.

In all it seems that you have started this on a good foot. I will warn you that you are in for a long go, as most are. You have not mentioned if this was a PA in addition to the obvious EA. It would be helpful to know this.

Another part of plan A is exposure of the A. OM's W knows and that is good. If it persists then exposure to a wider circle is recommended. The W will be mad as a hornet, but most A's do not flourish in the light of day.

So plan A for you sir. Avoid the LB's, and be consistent in your message to her. It will take awhile for her to get through withdrawal ONCE the contact has ended. The sad thing is that for this to work out, your contact with OM and family must cease although he has been a friend and/or acquaitance for years.

I am sure more will come along and offer advice. But you have started on a good foot, keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Forged

Welcome to the best club in the world that nobody wants to be a member of....

You have WISe counsel in Gimble already, and I am sure he has told you that at this stage of your situation you need study and prayer. the books will be useful, and I am loth to give you yet more 'homework' but the stuff in this link may really help give you insight into the road ahead.

You CAN do this and you're already working well despite your pain. That a great sign.

Check out my collection of resources for betrayed spouses new to MB. Its bundled advice from many of the smart folk here to ME but as I am just another FBS they were taling to YOU too.

New BS toolkit

All blessings. And LISTEN to Gimble. Don't just hear.

Thanks for the fast replies to my inquiry. I truly feel blessed to have the assistance of Gimble, and now the rest of his aquaintences. At first, the facts were overwheling my abilty to cope. Gimble kicked me off of my pity pot in a very kind manner.

I am up to the task, and welcome homework. My motto is, you cn't finish the job without the right tools. I have plenty of space in my brain, and time to fill it.

LA, To my best knowledge, there has not been a PA. I am reading up on LB's, and have been guilty of several. That will change at this point.

bOb, I have completely cleaned ALL the wax from my ears. I am hearing, and I am giving everything I have to implement the changes necessary.

Thanks

Hi, Forged.

There are a lot of people here that have been where you are, as well as on the other side of the coin. They can offer insight into what your wife is doing/feeling/thinking, as well as positive actions for you to execute.

I suggest that you use your thread here to journal your situation as it progresses. That will give others a chance to comment.

At some point, your wife is likely to do some things that are "over the top", or leave you confounded as to what your reaction should be. Get input here.

Let these folks get you know you.

All the best,
Gimble

I don't feel like a hero today. I don't feel like a man of steel. I feel like a man of foil, or paper, or mud. I feel like the breath has been sucked from my lungs.

Last night, W was very distant when she came home from work. She sat across from me with a cold stare. I asked if she wanted to talk. She said that she couldn't do it anymore. She said that she didn't want to work on R, she said that she didn't want to be M. She said she was loking into her options, and had seen a lawyer that day, but had not decided or signed anything. She was emotional but restrained. She said when we did ML, that she was unsatisfied. She apologized for not telling me I wasn't meeting her needs, and said she was learning to be more direct. She said she was afraid of trying to make things work. Afraid of wasting more time, afraid that it won't get better. Afraid to let me back into her heart.

During talk I validated her feelings, listened intently, and encouraged her to continue talking. I remained as calm and strong as possible, and I avoided revealing that I was really a quivering mess of emotion. This was good as it allowed her to talk, and she said things that blew my mind.

She said that she and OM were not in a PA. She said that she talked to him so much because she needed a "man's perspective". I pointed out that since she sought his mans perspective, she shut the door on me, locked it, caulked it, and slid the furniture in front.

We talked for a while. She was regretful that she didn't reveal her feelings and needs. I told her that by witholding, all she did was intensify and prolong her pain. She does not seem at all willing to let me prove my mettle.

I couldn't sleep. I was awake from 4:30 to 6:00am. I slid out of bed, got dressed, and was preparing to take a drive to the lake, when W came downstairs. (I had left a note) She asked if I wanted to talk, but I said I needed to be strong when we talked, so that I could understand, and that I couldn't be strong right then. She asked if I wanted breakfast, tea or coffee, but I declined. This caused her to become emotional, perhaps realizing the depth of my pain ( I am a notorious breakfast man, and my stomach sometimes wakes me up at 6:00 to eat, but I couldn't eat) I left for the lake, looking at the sunrise, and listening to Tom Waits "Ol' 55" on the radio. I walked around, looking at the ice, the ducks and geese, and the cold distant and beautiful sunrise. But the beauty failed to seep in, the warmth was lost. The sound of the geese only reminded me of the pain. I couldn't convince myself to take pictures of the unfolding scene, as if the capture of the scene would prolong my pain.

I stayed as long as I could bear to stay. I drove home, and W was still there, preparing to leave for work. I couldn't hide my emotions, as my dayglow red eyes told all.

How can I convince her that I am 100% committed to meeting her needs now that she has made them clear?

I told her again that I pray every day for her fog to clear before she makes another mistake. I told her that I am also praying that if she does make the next step away, that she really finds what she is looking for, and that her new skills of direct communication are in place when she does.

I am not the most observant man in the world. I may be a bit self centered but I am a good man, and an honest man. I would have leapt at the opportunity to step up to the plate if she told me where the plate was hidden. I can't help but wonder about our SD problem. W is the type who formulates the answer to your question before you finish asking. Was the distance I felt from her when we ML caused by her anticipation of unmet needs? Was her urge to take care of her own biz while I cleaned up part of the problem? If she only pulled me back over and said she needed more, I could have met her needs. It's not like we ML, I rolled over an fell asleep. I would hold her, rub her back, side or cheek and tell her I loved her until she fell asleep. My attention was on her!

I don't understand any of this business. I can't understand her thought process. I can't look into her eyes and see the woman I loved anymore. All I can see is someone who would rather lie to me than tell me the truth.

I pray for the strength to continue on this path. I pray for the wisdom to see the hope in tomorrow. I pray for the courage to face this uncertainty.

How do I plan A when W wants nothing from me?

Sorry for the mopey post. Sometimes I need to let that stuff out. On to the issue at hand:

How do I plan A if W is a closed book?

How do I request NC if W is in complete denial of inappropriate behavior?

How do I convince W that I CAN meet her needs?

I have exposed EA to W's sisters (inadvertantly, by talking with BIL in supposed confidence) W was angry, but fortunately, we had already discussed OM. I believe that it is not PA, but is still inappropriate, and it is robbing me of my intimacy with W.

Why does W dump on me when I am feeling positive and strong? I installed my artwork at the local coffee shop yesterday, the first time doing anything with art since last summer. It was great to see it hanging on the wasll, and it filled me with a sense of regrowth, and renewed creativity. W had nothing good to say about it, and in fact, had nothing at all to say about it. Instead, she chose that time to tell me that I had never satisfied her. I know it is fogspeak, but where is that woman I love?

Hi, Forged.

The woman you married is still in there.

First off, do your best not to engage in needy behavior with her. Keep you eyes dry, your face soft and open, but your resolve hard as nails.

There is a third person in your marriage. Her mind, nor yours, can sort out what is coming from where in her talks with you.

All you can do is to show yourself true and let her know that you will do whatever it takes to restore your marriage once the other man is out of the picture. There may be truth to be gleaned from what she tells you about your relationship. If you can pick it out, then okay, but otherwise, don't worry a lot about it right now.

One emotional need you can meet, since their relationship has not gone physical (and only do this if you are positive - you know my stance on STDs), is to make yourself available to her sexually. You know this is a big deal for her. The offer for sex with her needs to be a standing one. That means that you let rejection run off you like water on a ducks back. You offer with a smile on your face and love in your heart, and when she turns you down, you take it like a man and get ready to offer it again.

Offer her dates, walks, movies at home snuggled in the bed, whatever. Anything that you offer to do with her, you do for yourself, even if she says no. Do NOT sit around and pine away for her. That is a waste of time, she will hate it, and you won't like yourself very much either. If you are hanging art and can include her, then ask.

Pursue your wife, not needy, not grabby/feely, but like you did when you first met. I believe that this is part of what she needs from you. All the while, you maintain the right kind of distance.

Plan A is about negotiating an end to the affair. You are going to do that and work at winning your wife back as well. This will take some time.

If you need to mope and whine, or vent and rage, do it HERE, not with your wife.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

I have a standing offer to meet W's needs, and continue to offer it willingly and without hesitation. She is keeping her distance, and I am accepting the distance she keps while continuing my offer. I tried to scoot out of the house this morning, when I felt my resolve crumbling. I stayed out as long as I could, and assumed she would be gone when I returned. I kept my cool at that time, but there was no hiding the sadness in my red eyes. W became emotional in our talk this morning, I tried to keep my grip, and did alright. She approached ME for a hug as she left, and I obliged. This is lately a rare occurence, for her to seek my touch.

I will continue to offer to meet her needs, through back rubs after work, etc, but it seems like a long road, as you warned. I will try to head off my whining urges before they manifest themselves into negative actions.

How do I plan A if W is a closed book?

While your attempts to meet her most important ENs won't be depositing many units in her love bank, you should still listen to her and try to figure out what her top ENs are and do your best to meet them. I think you are doing a good job of that, BTW, from your posts. You should try to meet her top ENs and avoid LBs like the plague, because right now your W is very confused. She is trying to convince herself that she doesn't feel anything for you, that the M was a mistake. She does this to explain to herself why she has feelings for OM. When you meet her top ENs, it takes away the fuel for her self-talk about how you just don't understand her, you're not right for her, etc.

Even more important (IMO) than meeting top ENs is avoiding LBs. One DJ, one AO, and she will say to herself "THIS is why I can't live with him!" and she will quickly paint you as a monster in her own mind.

So... you do your best to meet the ENs, realizing that you wont' be depositing lots of love units right now, which is okay. You will be defusing her self-talk about how bad the M is, you will be learning to pay attention to her and her needs, and you will leave her thinking of you in a positive light. These are ALL good reasons to meet her ENs even though she does not seem receptive.

What do you think her top ENs are?
What LBs do you think you have been guilty of?

How do I request NC if W is in complete denial of inappropriate behavior?

You tell her how badly it hurts you to know she turns to another man instead of you.
You tell her you want to be the source of her solace and comfort.
You tell her you want to understand her, her motivations, her hopes, her dreams.

How do I convince W that I CAN meet her needs?
By doing it, consisently, and attentively, over a long period of time. If you are doing a strong plan A I guarantee she is noticing. At first she will tell herself that you're "faking" it and only trying to trick her into coming back. That it won't last, that you're not capable. Just stay the course.

She said she wasn't satisfied with SF. The next time you are making love ask her what feels good. Ask her to show you. Ask her what kind of foreplay she likes. Be flirty. Tell her she smells good, that she's beautiful, that her skin is soft. Watch her face, listen to her breathing, see when she tenses her muscles, when she presses against you, and when she pulls away.

What are her other top ENs? SF is kind of hard to meet without her cooperation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> The others should be easier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi, Forged.

I think I have covered this with you already, but just to be sure.

Your wayward wife my talk to you about divorce, wanting you to agree that it is best for both of you, or trying to get you to 'not resist'. Use your standard reply to any offer of divorce. If she accuses you of resisting, tell her that you intend to fight FOR the marriage, not destroy it. If she wants to leave, tell her that you don't want her to go, but that you can't stop her.

As a reminder, you certainly have contributed to the current state of your marriage, even so, that is NOT a justification for her affair. She owns that one all by herself. You did not and in fact, can not force her to have an affair. It was her choice to get involved, it will be her choice to get uninvolved.

Quote:
=============================
We talked for a while. She was regretful that she didn't reveal her feelings and needs. I told her that by witholding, all she did was intensify and prolong her pain. She does not seem at all willing to let me prove my mettle.
=============================

She doesn't want to let you prove anything, that would mean that she would have to stop what she is doing - she knows it is wrong, but it makes her feel good. She doesn't want to lose the 'feeling'. What you do is prove your mettle anyway. That is why you are learning to be a man of steel.

Quote:
==============================
I will continue to offer to meet her needs, through back rubs after work, etc,
==============================

Are you sure about what her needs are? Have you taken the emotional needs questionnaire on this site? If she won't take it with you, then do your best to fill in her responses yourself.

Forged, Plan A doesn't require that your wife be particularly receptive to it. In fact, she most likely will not be receptive. You do it anyway. Constancy (steadfastness of mind under duress) is what you exhibit to her.

Gimble

I just spoke with BIL. The trickle down news I received through W indicated a lack of comprehension from her family. My initial talk with BIL was very brief. I made sure to fully disclose the facts today. I let him know the freq of calls, length of involvement, OM's sitch, etc. He was floored. I made sure to let him know that I believed W was not involved in PA (yet) but that I felt it was an EA, and highly inappropriate. He was in complete agreement. I requested that he discuss the facts with his wife, my W's eldest sister, also known as minimom. I urged him to reiterate the fact that I believed W was not in PA. I did this to lessen W's anticipated rage. W believes what she is doing is fine, and thinks it is not A. Her family will not see that distinction. BIL cautioned me about the possible rage from W. I told him I was prepared to face her rage with love. He offered more level headed advice, not unlike the advice I recd here. He said he would proceed with caution in telling SIL about details.

If you think I made a mistake in my method or message of exposure, please let me know asap. I believe I have until tomorrow to revise message, and/or retract altogether. BIL will keep confidence, he assured me (I believe him as he was a former family black sheep, and I stood by him)

Turtlehead, I am certain that I have not LB with DJ or AO, but I ma guilty of AH, (I have rectified that behavior, and W noted my change in MC) I also have SD in the past, with requests for help with my business, and I learned last night, in ML by not meeting her needs.

I printed off the EN & LB questionaires, and will present W with the LB tonight. EN can wait a bit, as her force field is on full power. I will BG her answers for now, until I can do better than guess.

"You tell her how badly it hurts you to know she turns to another man instead of you.
You tell her you want to be the source of her solace and comfort.
You tell her you want to understand her, her motivations, her hopes, her dreams."
I touched on some of these ideas yesterday, particularly the last one. I asked her what she pictured, if her life dream came true. Her answer, " To not need to work so hard, and to have a family"
Due to my failed biz, she has worked exceedingly hard for years, but we made only slow progress. After abandoning art biz and switching gears, our income increased, but her sense of security did not. I am actively seeking gainful employment with benifits, to answer that need. The security issue is why we don't have children. We have 14 N & N's in the family, and W said "It feels like it will never be my turn" She also said she doesn't think she will ever be happy again. I want to suggest Anti-D meds, but when my Doc suggested them for me, she became angry.

St Johns Wort for me, yoga for her. We get by how we can. I will continue to shine, and bring my rainclouds here.

She may not be receptive to filling out the questionnaire with you. If she won't, of course you'll be disappointed but try to be nonchalant about it.

If she DOES fill out the LB questionnaire, listen calmly to everything she has to say. Don't try to defend or explain yourself. Don't argue with her. Tell her thank you for being so candid.

She probably has a huge litany of perceived wrongdoings. Some will be legitimate complaints and some will be insane justifications to herself. Allow yourself some time and then during a period of strength and calm, review what she said and try to sift the grain from the chaff. Even something seemingly absurd like "you leave toothpaste in the sink and expect me to clean it up" might point to a legitimate need for domestic support.

Meet ENs
Avoid LBs
Be constant

You are doing well. Keep us posted.

Oh, one more thing - this place really slows down on weekends. If you have an update or question it might not get much response until Monday.

Is there folly in my mode of exposure? I need to be sure her family knows what is going on, as they are all have high moral standards, and would frown upon W's R with OM. I made an exposure attempt through BIL, & it made W angry, and it did not suceed at revealing the true nature of R. My new attempt will reveal, but I wonder if it is the right way to do it. I can backtrack if this is a mis-step, but not for long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FORGED:
<strong> Is there folly in my mode of exposure? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are handling it well.

WAT, please chime in here if you are around.

Gimble

Forged,

I just want to jump in here and express my astonishment at how well you are doing. I would assume that Gimble's expert advice has brought you up to speed very quickly.

Since you are doing so well and getting such good advice from everyone here I find that there is very little to add except:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I told her again that I pray every day for her fog to clear before she makes another mistake.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all know here that fog is for real but talking to WSs about fog borders on DJ. I would back off a bit in discussing fog with her.

"'Ol 55", huh? One of my favorites - and definitely Tom's version rather then the Eagles. So atmospheric.

Gimble has, in fact, made me the sane person I am today, kindly pointing out how worthless my pity pot seat was in the scheme of things.

Legato, I appreciate the fog pointer, she did not react to it, but I will avoid anything that may be construed as a DJ.

Ol' 55 came around on the CD player, serendipitously, on the road at 6 am, as the sunrise was hitting my eyes. Not bad for timing, eh? I just got the CD on Ebay last week.

Forged

I think I understand you but forgive me if I miss the mark.

The first think that stood out for me in your initial post were the cell phone bills. I tried to keep my secret(cell phone bills) from my W. It didn't work. The truth was I was talking to OW and seeing her. I cannot speak for your W but there wasn't a lot of truth coming from me during that time in our lives.

My W and I would not have been able to make any progress towards recovery with out NC. OW was much more than a "friend" and a "woman's perspective" to me and I think the same is true for your W.

If there was still C it would have been difficult if not impossible for my W to plan A me out of the A.

There are some parts of the puzzle that I am not seeing here. Your W needs to be honest, if she hasn't already, and explain her reasons for ending your relationship. How can the situation be improved if you do not know what the problems are. You have said that she is the primary income for your home. Are your problems financial? Is she understanding about your craft? Does she like being the main line of income for the two of you and did she expect that would be the case indefinately?
H

If she didn't react maybe it's not so bad. Does she know the context; has she been reading MB material?