I think both of these lists are very accurate.

The Type 1 Run of the Mill WW fits Wayzilla to a tee up until the divorce. Now I think she may be starting to pick up a couple of the Type 2 traits.

Gollum on the other hand displayed several of the traits for the Type 2 as far as we are willing to assign them to males. The Type 2 list strikes me as fairly uni-sex but what do I know.

And of course because Gollum was married, Wayzilla was both a WW and OW.

Aside: I think you are really a fun character !

Accepting your up-close-and-personal assessment of this ... why was her infidelity NOT impacted using MB concepts & plans?

:MrEEk:
No, no, no, not you. The ww1 that has morphed into type 2!!. Sorry for the confusion. I do try not to be counterproductive and offensive with my posts.

I agree - a very external locus of control

(now then I'm sure I have already posted this but it doesn't seem to have appeared.)

My Rev,

Permit me a small indulgence here.

I think that this:

explains this:


and this:


I had similar self doubts when I was 2 years into recovery.

I thought I would NEVER 100% respect my decision to remain married.

I was wrong.

I'll bet you a cup 'o' joe, you're wrong too.

Come see me about this in .... say .... 2013.
for a grumpy dude

I'm NOT confused !!!!!!!!!

I never thought you were referring to me !

See my post to My Rev . You're on the same timeline. (2007)


In some ways, the 2-year mark is harder than one expects it to be. The BS doesn't feel the way they hope to feel and still are haunted by lingering self doubts.

About your "NC for life" comment. Very much like AA. They refer to themselves as "recovering" not "recovered".

Perhaps that is your point?

I say this to most of this, and THIS to this part: "and yes, a delightfully difficult, estrogen maker.".

I will say it again: I AM NOT DIFFICULT!!!

<I loves ya, Pep...even if you think I am "difficult"....HUMPH!>

This is EXACTLY where I am, and I am relieved to hear that it is at least sort of normal.

It's too bad they disabled the "post a poll" feature. We could settle this with a vote !


FWIW - I trump your level of difficulty due to my >ahem< senority

Well Pep, here you are writing a White Paper and I'm reading Action Comics.



To quote Lord Wellington after Waterloo, "It was a near run thing."

Of course he won.

Napoleon probably said, "That really sucked!"

It was probably due to the idiot running the plan but……MB Plans worked very well and did impact the adultery.

Plan A really pissed her off. It was actions not words and it did not feed into her plan and justifications at all. I still believe I did a very good Plan A. It made it’s intended mark.

One night after D-Day she came home started pounding down vodka Collins and was stumbling drunk in about an hour.

She started crying and moaning, “Why are you doing this? How can you be so nice to me? I just want to die! It’s not supposed to be like this.”

I got to hold her hair out of her face and the toilet while she puked, tucked her into bed and took care of her the next day. Ah, the Golden Moments of Plan A.

Exposure was a total blast and did temporarily end the adultery. She cried, apologized, cried some more, burned her souvenirs from the adultery in the fireplace and promised to attempt recovery with me.

But……. she drug her feet looking for a new job to leave the company they worked at and in the end I could not force that. They worked in different facilities about 60 miles apart so it was a ticking bomb. We had NC and painful withdrawal for 21 days before there was a meeting they both were at in her facility. When she got home, 21 days of withdrawal was wiped clean and she was deep in the fog. She was gone a week later.

It was all undone by a single contact after NC began.

Plan B? Well Plan B has worked very well for me and to some extent still is a thorn in the adultery although I understand at least as of last week they are still together.

I am also in the camp that believes once a WW begins a sexual adultery the BH is really, really in trouble. Far more so than a BW.

To do this a WW has closed every door on the marriage to be able to justify and live with her decision to have sex with another man. At least those from the Type 1 list.

Well, those last 2 sentences made my heart stop. Totally agree. And I think that is why I stopped the A before I made that bad decision. I hadn't processed that 'til now.

Thanks Chrisner

Chrisner, awesome post except I disagree with this. I was most definitely in the first list. The ONLY way I could have sex (ick) with the OM was to compartmentalize my R with him. I never closed the door on the M, I wanted my H to want me. The moment he agreed to (finally) go to MC with me, I ended the A. At THAT point, OM was so pissed at me, he did everything possible to show me he no longer wanted me. THANK YOU GOD!

I can attempt to answer this on his behalf. I still maintain my W(stbx)H fit Type 1, though I concede that it is possible that I simply didn't find everything out, and his OW is a bonafide type 2, and my marriage failed also. So we're very similar except opposite sex WS's. I pulled out of the "MB guide to ending the A and recovering the M" rather early on due to a number of reasons. But I stayed here to try to gain insight as to what actually happened. In many respects, I learned MB after I stopped practicing it for its purpose. But I could definitely see how, if had done certain things in Plan A, and conducted my Plan B exactly according to MB, it WOULD have impacted my WS. I did do my own modified version of Plan B - no contact but no PBL - and he actually did respond exactly as the MB program is designed for WS's to respond. I do believe MB WOULD HAVE worked, had I executed it as prescribed.

Executing perfect exposure, Plan A and Plan B is not easy under a normal frame of mind. A newly betrayed BS is NOT thinking at their best and it's not surprising they make many mistakes. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to see where you woulda/coulda/shoulda done something differently but its too late by then. After reading thread after thread after thread of different situation, I believe more than ever that the MB program is very, very specific. Dr. Harley says himself that small deviations from the plan usually mean failure. It's a very fine line to follow and even slight missteps affect the ultimate outcome.

I replied before I saw this. This is what I mean by fine line. Very easy to misstep and when you consider recovery ultimately requires both spouses, the misstep can come from the WS - derailing every inch that had been attained to that point. Makes it all the much harder.

Chrisner:
I am also in the camp that believes once a WW begins a sexual adultery the BH is really, really in trouble. Far more so than a BW.

To do this a WW has closed every door on the marriage to be able to justify and live with her decision to have sex with another man. At least those from the Type 1 list.

Wow. This is a scary thought. I think it's also very true.

Two things saved my marriage.

One -- we went out of town for a weekend because I recognized something was wrong. I didn't know what it was, but it felt like we had grown apart and I wanted us to reconnect. That raised the level of her self-doubt about the A that she was carrying on without my knowledge. In other words, guilt kicked in, guilt on steroids.

Two -- Pond Scum was a total tool. When FWW found out that he'd been badmouthing her to the wife that he had proclaimed to the world for two years to the world that he'd divorced, that put the final kibosh on things. This happened after she'd broken NC eight separate times. The only reason there was no field goal attempt on her wayward a$$ was the fact that all contact was via text, not in person. Had they met in corpus, the M would have been a corpse.

In other words, I got lucky. Luckier than I deserved.

My point is that you are "recovering" forever, you are NEVER "recovered". It is something that will be with you for the rest of your life no matter what. You will never forget it and we are all different after it happens to us (both the WS and the BS), sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Some people agreed that WW showed characteristic signs of psychopathic behaviour and that the behaviour was part of a continuum of degree .I notice that narcissistic behaviour has not had a mention and would like to add my own conviction that narcissism can at the extreme end of the behavioural spectrum become psychopathic.

If you take the two lists there are a number of items which have a common thread

DSM IV-TR criteria for narcissism

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:[1]

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special".
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

The exploitative, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, disregard for others, and constant need for attention inherent in NPD adversely affect interpersonal relationships.

Narcissism can be a considered a self-perceived form of perfectionism. Narcissists often are pseudo-perfectionists and require being the center of attention and create situations where they will receive attention.[

1. Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends.

2. Barely recognizes her conscience.

3. Works out, feels good, sleeps like a baby.

4. Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention.

5. "Follow your heart" IS her compass in life.

6. Cries for an audience, especially when caught.

7. May drink, do drugs, but does them to heighten her sense of pleasure.

8. Feels powerful and in control.

9. Loves herself. Why not?

10. Can look people straight in the eye and lie her [censored] off. Then go to bed with OM(s), then come home and kiss her BH, her children, and have a good night sleep. No problem.
_________________________

So how does this relate? If the purpose of this thread is to explore better ways for the members to help the BH intervene?

I am missing the relevance as far as helping the BH.

No point in "diagnosing" a WW unless it is a means to helping the BH.

Do you agree?