From another thread:

I think it might be useful to have a discussion about this.

Dr Harley writes,

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Historical Honesty

Reveal information about your personal
history, particularly events that
demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

Whenever you and your spouse make a decision together or try to resolve a conflict with the Policy of Joint Agreement, one factor that must never be ignored is your past. That's because mistakes and successes of the past often provide evidence of what's likely to happen in the future.

While many people feel that embarrassing experiences or serious mistakes of the past should be forgotten, most psychologists recognize that these are often signs of present weakness. For example, if someone has ever had an affair, he may be vulnerable to another one. If someone has ever been chemically dependent, he is vulnerable to drugs or alcohol abuse in the future. By expressing past mistakes openly, your spouse can understand your weaknesses, and together you can avoid conditions that tend to create problems for you.

No area of your life should be kept secret. All questions asked by your spouse should be answered fully and completely with periods of poor adjustment in your past given special attention. Not only should you explain your past to your spouse, but you should also encourage your spouse to gather information from those who knew you before you met your spouse. I have encouraged couples that are considering marriage to meet with several significant people from each other's past. It's often a real eye-opener!

I carry this Policy of Radical Honesty about your past all the way to the disclosure of all premarital and extramarital sexual relations. That's because those experiences are among your most important experiences in life, and your spouse should know anything you regard as important. Past sexual experiences also create a contrast effect in marriage, and it's inevitable that you will compare your spouse sexually with all other past sexual relationships. Knowing your sexual history can make present sexual problems much easier to understand.

I've had clients argue that if they tell their spouses about mistakes made decades earlier, their spouses will be crushed and never trust them again. Why not just leave that little demon alone?

My answer is that it's not a "little demon." If you've had an affair, it's an extremely important part of your personal history, and it says something about your predispositions. If you've had an affair in the past, your spouse shouldn't trust you -- I certainly wouldn't.

But what if you haven't strayed since it happened? What if you've seen a pastor regularly to hold you accountable? Why put your spouse through the agony of a revelation that could ruin your relationship forever?

I'd say you don't give your spouse much credit! Honesty does not drive a spouse insane -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If he or she is wrong, an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions develops.

Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are? That's the saddest position of all. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of your weaknesses.

Some counselors have argued that the only reason people reveal past infidelity is because of anger. They are deliberately trying to hurt their spouses with that information. Or they might be doing it to relieve their own guilt at the expense of their spouse's feelings.

While it's true that the spouse usually feels hurt, and vengeance or feelings of guilt motivate some, whenever correct information is revealed, an opportunity for understanding and change is presented. That opportunity is more important than unhealthy motives or momentary unhappiness. Historical honesty

The article explains the kind of information about you to which your (future) spouse is entitled. If you read the questionnaire that Dr Harley has constructed, Personal History Questionnaire, you will see that is asks about many things, including your lifelong health, your upbringing and your education.

About your opposite sex experiences, it divides those experiences into "before High School", "during High School" and "after High School". It asks about divorce, extramarital relationships, homosexual relationships, sexual crimes, and fantasies and leanings (such as an attraction to children).

The questionnaire is detailed, and some people would have to spend a lot of time filling in the answers, but that in itself is not a reason for revealing these facts. Dr Harley gives the reasons why your spouse has a right to know these things, and ideally, would know them before marriage:

"That's because those experiences are among your most important experiences in life, and your spouse should know anything you regard as important."

Would you agree that I have a right to know whether my H has been unfaithful (either in marriage or with previous girlfriends), has been married before, has ever paid for sex, is attracted to other men, has been on a "sex tourism" holiday, has been promiscuous, has conceived a child with someone else (and what happened to it), is a recovering drug addict or is on the sexual offenders register? If any or all of those facts caused me to walk away from the marriage, isn't that as it should be?

I believe that a person has NO RIGHT to enter into a marriage and keep those or other facts to himself because they are "spent", and least of all because it would take him years to recount them!

i totally agree that your spouse should know everything about you. you share your life. you should share your secrets. you have alot of time to do it in an intimate relationship

Just to clarify:

This thread is not about a spouse's right to know about events in their marriage, such as an affair.

This thread is about "historical honesty", i.e. the past, before you met your (future) spouse.

One's past has to come into consideration when choosing a spouse. When we apply for a job, we present a resume with our JOB history. Our history determines whether we are a suitable choice for that job. We would never dream of hiring someone without it.

It is the same with marriage, our history reflects our suitability as a spouse. Marriage is a much greater investment with an even greater requirement for a complete and full history.

I kind of understand what Larry is asking about. Basically, what level of detail do you reveal? And I'd add to that - when?

First, there's his spin the bottle example and you can add to that teen idols you had posters of and fantasized about. Also the guy/girl you brushed off, the one you were attracted to but too shy to approach so you just admired them from afar. All sorts of things like this could be part of your history. However, I don't think you need to sit down and list every single thing in one session - in fact it would probably be impossible because many you wouldn't even remember. What I think Harley's intent is that should the subject arise, or your spouse ask about it, you should respond honestly. As in, "Yes, I played spin the bottle and kissed XYZ and was a thrill" rather than covering it up because there's no way the spouse could ever find out anyway.

But some things do need to be brought up and discussed intentionally. Things like how many sexual partners you've had or if you've had an STD or even if you've been married before or lived with someone (people do hide these obvious things). These are not things you are going to discuss on the first date obviously but eventually, if the relationship becomes more serious, you will have to divulge this info and be prepared for any consequences that may result (i.e. being dumped). I think this is where people are more likely to get in trouble.

It's best to have a policy of honesty rule that applies to yourself as an individual before you ever think about marriage. Not radical honesty, but honesty. Don't speak unless it's the truth. If necessary, state that something is too personal and you don't want to share that information, but don't lie about it. That way, when a relationship progresses towards potential marriage, you aren't stuck with a lie from that awkward first date.

I agree with Dr. Harley completely about historical honesty. I remember it being such a great feeling for Mr. W and I when we first saw the Personal History Questionnaire - we discovered that there wasn't anything there that we hadn't shared with each other. The affair [approximately 3 months in length] was the first time there had been any dishonesty on my part between Mr. W and I - and a big reason that I was caught so early [Thank God!] - dishonesty did NOT come naturally to me at all - the amount of conflict it created in me was incredibly debilitating. I was a total basket case.

In particular, I love this part of Dr. Harley's article:


I just had a conversation with our dd10 about that very thing. I was telling her what an amazing feeling it is to have someone know you as well as you know yourself - and love you anyway. I shared with her what a special thing that is between her dad and I. Real intimacy between a husband and wife is a truly beautiful thing - I wouldn't trade it for the world.

You know, I would even go so far as to say that I believe a good amount of historical honesty when posting on this forum is important as well. It is a big reason that I have "FWW", "Dday 2005" and "Recovered" in my signature line. I think the perspective we are offering when trying to assist others here is crucial information for them to have. In fact, to me, it would feel very disrespectful [and obviously dishonest] not to be forthcoming about that kind of stuff.

Mrs. W

That implies that in the early dating process, if you were asked (for example) whether you'd ever had casual sex, it would be okay to say that the question is too personal and you don't want to share that information. Later, when you are progressing towards potential marriage, you should admit that you slept around in college.

I don't get that. I don't know why you wouldn't tell a person you wanted to continue dating the honest answer to his question. He wants to know this because he wants to continue dating you. Since he asks, that information must be important to him, even early on in a relationship.

Why shouldn't he know this about someone he is dating?

In your example, Sugarcane, if disclosing your past of casual sex is too personal to you for first date information, but important to the date, then the date would be able to evaluate whether or not to continue dating you. But let's say the question was even more personal - have you ever been sexually abused or raped? Have you ever had an STD? I can't speak for everyone, but to me these questions are way too personal for a first date scenario. I would, in fact, be turned off by a man who asked these types of questions on the first date and, therefore, there would be no second date. Hence, I wouldn't feel obliged to answer them. But that can be accomplished without lying.

I feel strongly about that too. I think that historical honesty here on MB helps your reader to understand more fully your situation and post accordingly, but it also helps them to decide whether they want to help at all.

That was the reason why, in my first ever post here, I revealed the fact that my H and I lived together for some months before marriage and that I was pregnant when I married. I described our pre-marital lives as liberal, trendy, do-whatever-feels-good, hip city dwellers, hanging with a non-judgemental crowd that got up to all manner of sexual activities. I informed the board that, despite that past, we'd only been married to each other, and that we only had our COM.

I gave that context because I knew from lurking here that people are angry when they find out that they have unwittingly helped affair marriages, or have been deprived of some other fact that would have affected their advice. Also, I could see that our liberal trendy values had come back to bite me in the bum in the form of my H's affair. My H hoped that a bit of discreet extramarital sex should have been no big deal, should I have discovered it.

The point of my post was to ponder whether MB principles could ever be effective if those were the underlying values in a marriage. My values had never been anything like as liberal as my H's and had become less so over the years, but I wondered whether we could change our marriage if H did not change his values.

My historical honesty led to a first post that took about 3 hours to read. It boggled MelodyLane's eyes and I don't think she has ever recovered.

I have tried to learn from the experience and make my posts much shorter. Some days are better than others.

Well, that's fine. You can decide that a man who asks these questions on a first date is not someone you wish to see again. However, if he indicates, by asking, that he wants to know whether you have ever been sexual abused before he dates YOU a second time, then you must either tell him or not date him a second time.

What you must not do is plead the fifth and date him to the point where he feels serious about you, and THEN tell him. You should not attempt to decide for him what is important for him to know about someone he dates.

ITA sugarcane. If someone asks you something you should always be honest about it and my h and i have historical honesty. We did not learn everything about one another in the first date or even the first year probably, but throughout the years we have told each other EVERYTHING about our past.

I can tell you how many people my h has been with, who he played spin the bottle with, who his first was and he can tell you the same about me (if our feable little brains let us remember ).

Most definitely IMO this falls right in line with any other "honesty"

Mel, you mentioned a security clearance in the other thread from which this one leaped. I thought about that this morning. I had one of those. The FBI went all the way back to Grade School and past that to every place I had ever lived and interviewed neighbors. That was when I was 18 years old. They still allowed six months for the clearance because even in those days, people moved around a lot.

I am addressing this to everyone, not just to Mel."

Before I ran my mouth in that other thread, I had read, carefully, again, Dr. Harley's concepts on the subject and I had browsed through the questionnaire. In other words, I processed it through the [u]mental filter of "What ifs." If I were involved in a coaching series with Dr. Harley, I would have the ability to ask for clarification. And I am sure he would give it. But he doesn't do coaching anymore, to the best of my knowledge and I am not a client if he were still in practice, so I am clueless how to deal with the "What ifs" in this radical departure from standard technique. And I have no fear of "Radical" departure since that is what he does.

Now I believe I understand MB basic concepts and even more, have done research to validate some of them to provide better understanding. For example, I have delved into the science behind infatuation and the science behind other types of affection. I have also discussed some of Dr. Harley's methodology as it relates to textbook psychology. I have 36 college hours of psych including graduate courses and a close friend who has his Masters, with whom I discuss various of MB concepts. So I can handle it when the discussion gets technical.

The study of human nature has been one of my fascinations all of my life. And as some of you know, that is a long life indeed. I study, think and explore constantly for my own knowledge. And as a preventative against some of aging's more unpleasant mental disorders.

I have discovered some stuff along the way. For example, Dr. Harley formulated his basic concepts before much was known about the chemical basis for infatuation. Yet the structure of HNHN and the methodology behind his recommended practice mimics very closely those things that people do naturally, guided by instinct, when they're infatuated. Without any scientific study on the subject, I concluded as a hypothesis that MB concepts helped keep a sustainability level of PEA active.

With my very own eyes, I have seen folks blow past one or more MB concepts because they either didn't understand it, it was too complex, or it wasn't complex enough. And that was the sincere ones. Others blew past something because it made the uncomfortable. I have also seen people challenged when they blow past one of the basics. Heck, I do it.

With that as a background just to let you know I wasn't being flippant with my comment or questions, here it is:

In the interest of understanding as much as I was capable, I looked at historical honesty and came up with a dozen or more questions that I have not been able to resolve. I will share some of them with all of you for the purpose of getting your opinions and clarification.

1. How much of any single event do you detail? I was in the military for three years and single. I was also at the beginning of the "Sexual revolution." Depending on age, some men and women have a lot to remember. I can see that.

2. What if you can't remember? Males are afflicted with poorer memory in this area than are women. How accountable should someone be for their memories? For example, I had forgotten that "Adventure" I detailed in the other thread and most of the details until I was thinking on the subject of historical honesty last night and that on popped out.

3. If there is something you did that was embarrassing, should you not also go into detail of why you think it was the wrong thing to do and what you have done to process the guilt? Dr. Harley delves into this, but not in detail.

4. How do you deal with a potential partner's filters in a premarital setting, or how do you deal with those filters in a marital setting post fact of marriage? For example, I have often told the story of a couple sitting on a beach taking in some son and watching people. A vibrant and very good looking teenage female bounces by. Wife says with a sigh and a body that has earned the ravages of childbirth, "I will never look that good again." Husband says, "Neither will she."

I know some women who would belt husband and storm off. I know others who would mentally promise him a serious reward later on in the privacy of their home. I already know the answer to this one, but I want to see what other people think.

5. Males have poor memories. Taking a hypothetical example of a couple who was fortunate enough to adopt MB concepts as their marriage mantra from the beginning, how do you deal with some never revealed detail that crops up with a friend of husband or wife mentions it as a war story? I forgot about that???

I have some other "What ifs" that can be drug out into the light of day if needed. Maybe some folks here have some that I didn't think of.

As a process of Surviving an Affair, you must fill out questionnaires. And one of those is your personal history. So this is a subject that needs discussing here on SAA, in my opinion. I will now shut up and wait for comments.

Larry

Oh, and a good one just cropped up already. We have a thread here where a wayward husband is throwing up his wife's past as justification for his adultery. Not in those terms. Instead, he says if he had known about xyz before he got married, he wouldn't have married her.

But wait a minute, there is more here than meets the eye. MALES are culturally directed to cat around. But they want a mate who hasn't had all that much experience. FEMALES in many cultural settings are taught to HIDE their experiences or gloss over them.

How do you handle those basic instincts? Think a bit before you answer.

Larry

Larry, you addressed your post to Mel, but I hope you don't mind my answering.

I don't understand the point of the preamble to your questions. Your post suggested that you did not understand or agree with Dr Harley's advice on historical honesty. There was no suggestion in your post that you disagreed with the majority of Dr Harley's concepts.

I started this thread with sections from the article by Dr Harley. In that, he makes what seem to me to be very clear recommendations for "historical honesty". If you want examples of the kind of facts that he thinks are relevant, then you can look at the questionnaire. That shows that Dr Harley believes that sexual experiences as far back as "pre High School" are important. He also thinks that the number of sexual partners, any extramarital affairs, homosexuality and sexual abuse are important. I don't understand how you can still be unclear about what he means after reading these very clear questions.

Is it possible for you to answer the questions? If you were on the road to getting married at present, would you be able to fill out the questionnaire? Is there anything about the wording of a particular questions that you find ambiguous, and impossible to answer? If so, which ones?

I don't understand the problem here.

Let's suppose that someone in the military during those years had frequent, casual sex. They had sex with, say, 40 women, including prostitutes, and caught an STD several times.

This should be told to the potential spouse. There is no moral reason why this should be withheld or played down. Do you doubt that this should be revealed, and if so, why? Because there were lots of women? Because it was a long time ago? Because the man was single? Because this was the 1960s?

None of those is a good reason for not telling the woman about the man she is hoping to marry!

If you cannot remember, you cannot remember! This does not make any difference to Dr Harley's recommendations. What you cannot do is use a general "men have poorer memories" cover as an excuse for not taking this marital need seriously.

Yes, he does. He says,

"But what if you haven't strayed since it happened? What if you've seen a pastor regularly to hold you accountable? Why put your spouse through the agony of a revelation that could ruin your relationship forever?

I'd say you don't give your spouse much credit! Honesty does not drive a spouse insane -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If he or she is wrong, an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions develops.

Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are? That's the saddest position of all. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of your weaknesses."

You should discuss how you've changed. You should tell your spouse of your efforts to ensure that the past behaviour never happens again. Again, I don't think there is any issue here.

I don't understand the question. What is the issue about historical honesty here; about revealing facts about your past?

If an H had made every attempt to be honest before, and then in the telling of a war story, a friend revealed something new about the past, I think a wife might be upset at the detail, but she is not a irrational monster. Women are capable of understanding that an event that happened among many others in the sex-crazed 1960s might have been forgotten.

The fact that something might genuinely have been forgotten does not make the case for disagreement with Dr Harley. A spouse has the right to know the details of her H's past, especially his sexual history. He is honour-bound to provide as much of that as possible. He does not have the right to withhold information that he can remember for any reason.

Do you agree?

He has every right to say that.

Her past is not a justification for his affair, and I hope she is being told that here. However, her H is correct in saying that he had the right to know about her past before he married her.

Larry, there's nothing to think about! People have a right to know the sexual history of the person they wish to marry!

If someone has covered up her sexual past to conform to cultural pressures, when they come to these forums or coach with the Harleys and are encouraged to be honest for the first time, many years perhaps into the marriage, they should be honest. They cannot hope to have an MB marriage if they pick and choose the concepts they feel comfortable with.

We cannot say to someone who comes here in trouble, that historical dishonesty is acceptable because of the culture she is from. If we are to help someone have an MB marriage, we have to encourage them to apply ALL the concepts.

SugarCane



I fixed that post. I was addressing it to everyone.

The point of my preamble was to show that not everyone reads and processes the same way. Some want more information, some want less. Some are happy with the amount given. I bought SAA because I wanted more.

My point was that I have personally validated as many of Dr. Harley's concepts as I could through research and study.

Except I still have unresolved questions about Historical Honesty. This is a lack of understanding on my part (acknowledged) and no reflection on Dr. Harley.

I am probably making things to complex.

Larry

SugarCane

Ok, I am reading and I hope others will as well. At some point, I want to get into it with you about:


But not now.

I am still digesting what you have said and will reply later on today.

Thank you.

Larry

Me thinks Larry is making this WAY more complicated than it is...........

My gosh, I just don't see what is so hard about "historical honesty" - Mr. W and I didn't do all of ours in the form of a questionnaire either - but just in regular conversation - telling old "war stories" and everything else - what else is there to talk about in order to get to know each other?

Of course we dated for 5 years prior to getting married, so that was a long time to be able to tell all I guess - but I can't imagine deciding to marry someone any other way???

I remember a friend of ours being shocked once as we recalled an old story [funny, we thought] about a former girlfriend of Mr. W's - She just could NOT believe that we knew that kind of detail about each other - We were shocked that this was "news" to others - It seemed weird to us that other people would not have discussed their sexual pasts with each other...

Why is "your spouse should know everything about you that you know" a difficult concept? And why wouldn't you want them to know????? Why all this "bobbing and weaving" over something so simple? I don't get it...

Mrs. W

I have a tendency to do that until I get it figured out, then my mission becomes making it simple.

I am still waiting to see if some guys will address this issue.

See, men and women are not wired the same. Men try to figure out their girlfriends and wives logically, kinda like how a car works. Women talk to their cars. Men do too, but not in the same way.

Historical honesty is way easy for women to understand. Not so with men. It is the way we are wired. I dunno know how most men think, but I do know how some think. From hashing out this issue in the past with guys, most have allowed as how all they wanted to know was if she was a "good" woman or liked to pull a train with the football team. A few guys had other ideas that were mostly kinky.

Larry