Again, this is not your top need in order to be happy or your top need in order to be emotionally healthy. It is your top need in order to be in LOVE with your spouse.

You need food in order to live.

You need {sex,recreational companionship,admiration,or something else, the list varies from person to person} in order to feel in love with your wife.

Male friendship might make him feel good, and that's fine! But it doesn't make him feel in love with you.


There is no problem with having someone like that in your life. I call my brother frequently and have a couple of other good male friends.

What's wrong is if you place that friendship above being in love with your spouse.

If you are meeting your spouse's emotional needs and they are in love with you, and you have time left over (most people do), then spending some time with same gender friends is perfectly fine.

It's a post I've been needing to write.

I realized awhile back explaining to my kids the difference between needs and wants that really there's no such thing as a "need." It's the goal in your mind that defines what is a "need." Goal: staying alive; needs: air, water, food. Goal: being in love; needs: affection, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment.

I realized this is going to be important to some religious folks I know who challenge MB on the basis that you don't really "need" these things. They are right. You don't need them. But you do need them to accomplish the goal of being in love.

So now, when I get back to those folks, I have that post to use as notes for myself.

Yes I agree LOVELY teeth on that OW LMAO!

My spouse doesn't go to deer camp...yet...geez I hope he's never hear of it! He thankfully only hunts deer during the season but works to much the rest of the yr.

Melody....I went and read the en article....here look at this:

"What is an emotional need? It is a craving that, when satisfied, leaves you with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and, when unsatisfied, leaves you with a feeling of unhappiness and frustration. There are probably thousands of emotional needs. A need for birthday parties, peanut butter sandwiches, Monday Night Football, I could go on and on. Some people have some of those needs while others have different needs. If you feel good doing something, or if someone does something for you that makes you feel good, an emotional need has been met.

But not all emotional needs are created equally. When some are met, you may only feel comfortable--they make small Love Bank deposits. There are others, however, that can make you feel downright euphoric. In fact they make you so happy that you're likely to fall in love with the person that meets them. I call those our most important emotional needs because they make the largest Love Bank deposits of all. And those are the very same emotional needs that a husband and wife expect each other to meet in marriage."

I bolded the parts that are jumping out at me....euphoric...this is the word I have used to describe what I see my husbands response is to hunting with brother and he made a POINT of saying it isn't the hunting but rather the campionship he experiences with the brother that is the draw...he said the hunting is the draw for his brother as his brother will go up hunting alone...my spouse will not go alone...his brother or a friend must be going or he doesn't go.

So this is meeting his RC need....but it won't cause romantic love as he is with his brother but what I see it does is cause him to be drawn to brother over wife & kids. And I swear it's like his brother has a hold/spell over him....this has caused me to intensely dislike this brother....and being single makes it worse...he has no one in his life to be in relationship with so my spouse saying "my wife won't let me go hunting with you" is gonna go over like a turd in the pool...and I'll be hearing it from this brother in future as he wants company doing activities....I am the evil one in all this.

"Male friendship might make him feel good, and that's fine! But it doesn't make him feel in love with you."but it appears that it makes my spouse fall in love with his brother LOL!
this was taken from Markos post above...sorry I don't know how to do posts with just sections out of them.

gemstone, try and wrangle a MB weekend. It made a remarkable difference in my marriage and I had been here for 6 years!! On the first day they identified that my penchant for independent behavior was very, very high.

Eliminating my IB's made a huge difference in our marriage. And when we ran into trouble trying to learn POJA, Dr H put the smackdown on my H!

NOW I remember where I saw her!

gemstone - Married men who ignore their wives and would rather run around with other men are doing one of two things:

1) They are straight and are cruising with other straight males to pick up women.

2) They are gay and are cruising with other gay males to pick up men.

Have you done some serious snooping to find out what is really going on here?

I would advise the snooping, but I do see more possibilities than just the two you listed. They are a real danger, but not the only scenarios.

gemstone, the problem is not that he won't fill out forms, but that you don't have his buy in and because of that, he is spending his time looking for ways to REJECT it. He doesn't really understand the program and has not bought into it.

You have to get that first and that is why I suggested setting up an appointment with Steve Harley. Let Steve explain the program and get him on board.

Also, if you reach a point where he REFUSES to meet your needs, and you may hit that point, you might want to check into Dr Harley's solution in When to Call It Quits[/b][/color][/size]

It sounds to me like your H doesn't CARE if you are unhappy or not, and THAT is the REAL PROBLEM. He doesn't CARE.

Does your husband expect you to stay in a loveless, unhappy marriage where he neglects you? I would just ask him this right out, gemstone. Here is a very relevant Harley quote:

And I would remind your husband that Dr Harley HAS a happy, passionate marriage, YOUR HUSBAND DOES NOT. It might help to remind him when he is shooting holes in Marriage Builders that he has screwed up his own marriage; Dr Harley has created thousands of great marriages using these principles.

Okay Melody I will show him that quote sometime this week....probably when I have my EN's list completed and he doesn't have it for me....I hope he changes his mind here...sometimes I really sense he just feels this urge to be preverse....I don't get it.

I did see his laptop this weekend and he had tabs open to "how to show affection" so I know he is reading and trying....he must feel so out of his element on it....I did say I want him to kiss or touch me in affectionate ways in public...like in front of the kids or family or at family functions and stuff...hold my hand stuff like this...arm around me...kiss on the cheek.

Melody would him being or showing interest in my physical health a sign of affection? I think it is but am I wrong?

I was gonna put that on my questionaire...say something like "reading about my health issues" and "asking me about my test results" are signs of affection....he is'n't one to do this and forgets....he did say he figures if it's something bad I'll tell him so he doesn't invest to much in to "remembering" that hurts me deeply....so can it be put on my affection area of the questionaire?

I agree I am gonna bring up the scheduling of Dr.H session to him this weekend....I think he will say okay...he didn't shoot it down last time I brought it up so I will push forward....I was just hoping we could have filled out oour questionaires and then did the phone session to get right in but guess it will have to cost us more money and more time if he insists on dragging slowly here.

I agree with your husband... at least on these points. Harley himself states that these are what HE believes are TYPICALLY the top needs within a marriage, although if you read his book you will see that he states at the beginning that he had people tell him their needs and HE pared it down to these 10. Don't get hooked on the number 10... that is ignorant of reality. If your husband has a TRUE emotional need for say... COUNTING STARS for example, and it isn't necessarily 'recreation' or something, don't discount it, because all you are doing is judging that YOU don't believe HIM. AND... I wouldn't try to FIT his needs, as he tells them to you, into a category. It doesn't matter... and if it will turn him off FURTHER, then you are not doing yourself any favors. Accept what he believes are his needs and even if to you it is OBVIOUSLY fitting within the category of one of Harley's needs, just GO WITH IT. If you call it 'SF' and he calls it 'balling'... does it really make a difference, if you are talking about the same thing? Call it what he wants to call if FOR HIM and you call it what you want FOR YOU. But don't judge his choice. Harley doesn't have the corner on "RIGHT" for everyone, and the terms he uses mignt not 'ring true' for some people. But that isn't the important part.

Also, I agree as does Harley, that ENs can change over time, and that when one is fulfilled well, it will sometimes lose importance in comparison to another. Sometimes SF might be at the top, but if you Husband is having alot of difficulty at work, Admiration and Praise might be the one at the top for several months. The whole thing is and SHOULD BE dynamic. Think about Housework... it is a much higher need when you have 5 squalling kids messing up the house, than when you are all alone. That doesn't mean that the 'need' was false when the kids were around nor that something else isn't important after they leave. It just IS...

Health issues are scary for some people... I am not saying this is him, but consider whether it might be that he actually AVOIDS the thought that something is wrong rather than ignores it. Asking how your tests are going might be too much 'reality' for him at this point. And his fear of losing you or your illness MIGHT be causing him to avoid things which you wish he would show more interest in. It might have nothing to do with him showing little regard... it might be him actively working within a framework of 'self-preservation'. My Dad is like that somewhat with my Mom. He loves her so much, that he can't talk with her about her health very well, because it makes him think about losing her.

I am not stating that this is good or even acceptable, but it is something which you would need to approach differently if it is the case. Helping him to be comfortable with talking about it and understanding it, etc.

This might not be the case at all, but I just wanted to put it out for your thoughts.

I haven't said a thing about his top EN's....he hasn't revealed them to me at this point.....and I wouldn't say anything negative about them....he did try earlier as I posted in this thread to say it is a top EN for a friend...he would like a male friend other than his brother to talk to as he feels he can't really confide in his brother like he could to someone outside of the family....but Markos and Melody said that isn't a EN at all cause it won't create romantic love between my spouse and I....and Dr.H says there are all kinds of EN's from B-day parties to peanut butter sandwichs....but they won't create romantic love so I think my spouse is confusing this issue and so do the vets here...so I will go with them on this one.

Also I am not dying....I just have some health issues that lot's of people do that aren't terminal but rather chronic (annoying if you will) and I can't see the issue with him being so in love with me that he's afraid to ask how my blood work tests came out....checking my thyroid disease or checking for IBS or checking for allergies or checking for female hormone levels and so on....lupus is another one....I had tons of labs on that and a big host of autoimmune diseases that aren't gonna kill me....I was just stressed that I had to go thru the testing to rule them out....and they came back negative THANK GOD....so of them didn't that are much lesser in their upsetting my quality of life....he should CARE about these things.

I just took him for a scope test down the throat and I talked to his doctor who kept saying to me "how do you know so much about all this stuff?" I told him I read lot's about it....it's a thing I do....when someone I love might have or has something wrong I try to know about it so I can talk to them and be supportive and CARE for them....I need that in return so I won't be cutting him slack here too....he has since apologized for not asking about my results that occurred back in Nov 09 during hunting season as he is to addict at that time and can't come out of the fog while in it.

That's unacceptable to me...as we age we will all get sick and dye....I need to know my spouse will be there by my side just as he vowed to be....I will do no less for him every day of my life and for our children...he shouldn't get a free pass on all of this....he's had a free ride on it for 20yrs...NO MORE.

MelodyLane, do you have a source article for that quote?

Okay I just completed the EN's Questionaire....while reading on affection Dr. H says "I'm concerned about the problems you face and will be there for you when you need me" this is what he says affection is.

So that means I am correct in assuming that my spouse should be interested and showing care to me concerning all my medical tests or doctor visit & what meds I am on and future tx plans and so on....also how it affects our life together as it does impact us on certain activities I can or can't do...being in the dark about it is not showing affection toward me in the way I need affection from him....so I included it on my affection section inn detail how he can accomplish this and other things as well....I feel so relieved to have this completed and ready to go.

I do feel bad about circiling so many -3's on that forum....but I won't be covering it up anymmore....or stuffing it down...he has to know his behavior has been hurting us not helping us grow together just as I need him to do the same for me so I can change myself....I want him to desire to be with me more than any other person on the planet but I need the info to do it....I hope this inspires him to fill out the questionaire for me....I know I am far from perfect but what I am is willing to change.

Edit to add: I also put in the O&H area that him filling out all the questionairs at MB would help meet this need for me so that I know him and can meet his needs the way he needs them to be met. To be his soulmate in everyway.

Also added in the affection area: that when I call him for help (phyiscally or emotionally) to not reject my request but to put me 1st and to meet my request regardless if it interfers with his hunting or any other activity or event going on....this is how he can show me affection...he never does this....I am last and blown off so I had to add this on there too.

gemstone, I have a lot of ideas about what a husband and what a wife should do. But one thing that I have had to realize is that, if I had my wife's genetics and chemistry, and history, and parents, and experiences, I would be reacting exactly the same way as her. And as long as I am saying "She should be doing ..." I may be technically correct, but I am also judging her. And disrespectful judgment is as love buster.

You wouldn't believe how my marriage started to change when I realized this and started making an effort to eliminate that disrespectful judgment! Without realizing it, I was making love bank withdrawals all the time! No wonder her instincts did not prompt her to care for me. No wonder the acts of care I was performing for her did not seem to be filling my account in her love bank!

And ... you wouldn't believe how badly my marriage sucks for me when I start slipping back into thinking "She should..." And I'm sure it sucks even worse for my wife, for me to do that.




I suggest you focus on this: you have a craving for your spouse to take specific actions to show interest in you and care for you concerning your medical tests and doctor visits; when this craving is satisfied, you feel happy and fulfilled; when this craving is unsatisfied, you feel unhappy and frustrated. Therefore, you have an emotional need for affection to be shown to you in this way. This is the very definition of an emotional need:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5046b_qa.html


Yes, I think your husband "should" try to meet your emotional needs, but I have no idea how high this need really ranks for you nor how much of your needs your husband even can meet, nor do I have any idea what he is going through. What I do know is that as long as you focus on how he "should" do this, your disrespectful judgment makes it even less likely that he will do this, because it makes him fall even further out of love with you.

Do NOT feel bad about marking something -3 if it is true, even if it is true for all of them.

Learning to honestly communicate your emotional needs without engaging in love busters will make it much more likely for those needs to be met.

markos, that quote is over on the weekend forum and I didn't save the link.

Still reading and catching up.

Gemstone, I don't think you should allow yourself to get dragged down into the objection tarpit with your H. He is looking for loopholes and if you allow yourself to get dragged into a debate about every element of MB, you will lose. This is why he needs to be on the phone with Steve Harley.

See, your H is not sold on this. He wants to protect and maintain the status quo at the expense of his marriage. That is why he is coming up with frivolous, meaningless "questions." [really objections and distractions]

This is why I think it is critical to get him on the phone with Steve. Steve can answer his questions and quickly flesh out any contrived distractions.

Markos I am totally confused by your post....I am looking at the questionaire....It asks me to select options a thur d....and then below that says "Explain HOW your need for affection could be better satisfied in your marriage"

Your implying that my need for affection to be shown in a certain way by my spouse is a DJ from me cause I am requesting he do it a certain way or telling him HOW to do it.....I thought it was the purpose of this questionaire to do just that and based on the questionaire itself I don't see HOW I can not be specific in my answer to the "Explain HOW your need for affection could be better satisfied in your marriage"

I wrote "show interest in my health issues....by asking questions...lab test results and generally how I am managing. Read (5minute google search) what I have be diagnosised with....this shows me you care for me...I am important to you"

I see no DJ here on my part at all....and I see no way to say it differently. My spouse requests this of me when he has doc appts. labs or any meds he may need to take....he comes right up to me and says "read this! tell me what you think? do you know about this?" I am not asking him for anything extreme but I do think if he wants and expects this from me that it is not wrong for me to list this on my questionaire for him to do for me.

He does it automatically for people he truly cares about....if his brother (huntin buddy) has anything wrong he will immmediately google it and read on it for 5-10mins and then talk supportively with his brother. This is a sign of affection....one does no less for their pet...certainly as his wife I should qualify as much as his brother or our family pet.Not to mention since my spouse and I have SF somethings can and will affect this so it is something that must be talked about and he needs to understand so as to not bring issues into the marriage that arent really there...for example I have IBS-D.....he has no idea what it is at all...I have tried to explain to him but right in the middle he starts talking about tv or something....so I figure it's much better to go to medical site and read a page on it...clear and short to the point....easy to read...many places to do this...I don't want my spouse thinking I am rejecting him if I am having a flare up of my IBS-D that day! His disinterest is not only going to affect me but him directly....I see it as being lazy....yep, lazy...now there's a DJ right LOL!

Also I suffer with vertigo attacks....I have tried to get him to understand about this...it GREATLY affects my life and ability to function when I have a attack....he FINALLY after 20yrs has a small clue of it...recently took a med that gave him mild dizziness and thought he was going to vomit...told me he never could understand WHY I was so voilently ill and how it was so horrible until he got dizzy the other day from the med...he felt bad for all the insensitivty he treated me with over the yrs....telling me to WILL it away cause that's what he does....geez the awful mean things he said just triggers awful pain inside of me....and he could have simply took 5mins to read about vertigo/menieres disease....5mins....and he would have had a clue what I go thru....it is a way to perserve our relationship....cause his behavior is and has taken out huge love bank withdrawals at a alarming rate...infact right now it's just plain empty do to all this. Health issue happen in life and in every marriage at some point...some sooner than others...ingnoring your spouse isn't the way to be supportive or show care for her....he needs to change his behavior and I will be pointing it out on the questionaire and I am not worried in the least about his feelings on this....he's a big boy he can handle it.

Melody thank you once again....you must possess a crystal ball at your home...you seem to have a laser shot right into my life...it's uncanny! Yes I agree Dr.H is truly the only one that can hopefully get my spouse to stop dodging and looking for ways to avoid doing the program....or rather to cherry pick..I notice he wants to do that...forget POJA....and do taker/giver instead! It really gets to me some days....I am pressing thru no matter what......this way he won't be able to look me in the eye one day and say I didn't know! Ignorance won't work this time around...he claimed that last time cause I did the program by myself and he didn't know about it....not this time...he has the website and can do the questionaires and get going or choose not to...he needs to worry about my defiect love bank also....it's in the red and has been for a LONG LONG LONG time.