Well, my first post. My wife introduced me to this website and its philosophy last Thursday--a week after she told me she wanted a separation. We�d been in counseling for about two months with a non-MB counselor, and I thought we were making slow progress, but she obviously didn�t. She made clear to me that Dr. Harley's beliefs, particularly the PORH, will be the basis of whatever relationship she moves forward with, be it with me or someone else. I�ve probably spent fifteen hours on this site over the past week as I try to save my marriage, and I'm both optimistic and scared with what I've read so far. The reason for my fear is that to save my marriage, I have to change a part of me that has been ingrained for as long as I can remember. The primary (but certainly not the only) problem that I bring to the table in my life and my marriage is dishonesty. I've never stolen from others or cheated on tests or things like that. I've always been a good guy, liked by most growing up etc. But ever since I can remember, I�ve subtly tweaked the facts of my life to avoid conflict and to make myself look better. I do it without thinking. Before I met my wife fifteen years ago, I had never had a relationship last more than three months and I�d never said the words �I love you� to a woman I�d dated. Consequently, my selective honesty had never been an issue because there was no one to hold me accountable.

My wife and I come from different backgrounds, with my family being upper middle class, with a loving but controlling and domineering father, and a nurturing but mostly subservient mother. My dad has spent his whole life making decisions for the family and �protecting� my mom from information she didn�t "need to know" or that might hurt her. I didn�t realize until the last few weeks how much of his persona lives on inside of me.

My wife�s family was blue collar, with physical abuse from her father toward her mom, my wife and her brother when they were young. This resulted in significant dishonesty between her parents, as they have stayed together but basically lead separate lives.

When my wife and I met and fell in love, she was open and honest about her family and her need for honesty in a relationship. I, on the other hand, felt I came from a great family that had no issues. I felt I would always be honest with her, but never considered exactly what that meant, especially to her, because honesty, to me, meant the BIG things. Don�t cheat, don�t steal, don�t do anything that would REALLY hurt her, you know? Some of my lies were lies by omission early in our relationship when I, with a crummy history of any long-term relationship, withheld things about my past that I shouldn�t have based on having little confidence that any relationship would last. But it did last, and when I finally "came clean", I did it by rationalizing and defending my decision to lie instead of recognizing that no excuse was a good excuse, and realizing how much I had hurt her. Big mistake, and one I regret so much. Complicating this big picture for me was my belief that my wife�s responses and reactions to my dishonesty too often resulted in unfairly harsh retribution. Because I didn't feel there was a "safe" environment to be truthful, I found myself being dishonest about things that I didn�t believe were a big deal, or were not things she needed to know about. As some of these lies surfaced, my wife rightfully began to trust me less and less�to the point where her imagination of what I was hiding created things that didn�t happen, or didn�t allow her to accept my explanations. I was the little boy who cried wolf. I can honestly say that this site has helped me understand where she's coming from on those issues, but I've had difficulty overcoming the resentment I harbor over some of her punishing behavior and being accused of things I didn't do. I've spent the last week reminding myself that this is a bed that I made, and I know that I will have to repeatedly keep reminding myself of that fact if I have any hopes of this MB program succeeding, but it's hard.

All of this, of course, led to the complete depletion of both of our LB�s. It also created a vicious cycle of failure and withdrawal, because to tell her the truth on any issue which I knew would create conflict would, in my mind, not be met with all of the protections for honest disclosure espoused on this site regarding the PORH and the POJA. It was easier to keep things to myself. With no attempts to fulfill each others� ENs, we silently entered into a five year period of �don�t ask, don�t tell�. During that time, we functioned socially, went about our empty lives, and luckily had three wonderful children. But those five years of de facto withdrawal were so hard on both us in different ways, far harder than we both realized until the last few months.

Simply put, we are both about as lonely as we�ve ever been. Our marriage is a shell, with little to no affection, conversation, sex or any of the other ENs stressed by Dr. Harley. We both work a lot, try to keep our finances in order, and try to be good parents. That�s it.

Now, we are at the edge of jumping headlong into trying to rebuild our relationship using MB principals, but we are both terrified. She is terrified that despite my promise of honesty and to follow the PORH and POJA, that she can�t trust me to just �turn off� a lifetime of selective honesty after a week of reading MB articles. She is so scared of being hurt again as we approach reconciliation with MB that her anxiety is through the roof. It breaks my heart to say I likely would feel the same way if the roles were reversed. For my part, I am mentally committed to trying to alter my past behavior, but terrified that I won�t be able to change what has become a hard-wired reaction of selective honesty, and that if (when?) I screw up, that there will be no forgiveness or understanding on her part, just incredible hurt, anger and unfair retribution.

I love my wife more than I could possibly explain here. She is a brilliant, loyal and loving woman and a great mother, and the thought of losing her makes my heart feel like it is being squeezed in a vice. I know from a review of the materials here that I have to take responsibility for my actions, and that I can only control my side of making things right, not hers. That is what I intend to do through individual counseling, as well as continuing review of this site's content. I guess the purpose of this post is to introduce myself, but with an eye toward hearing from other men who might be or might have been in a similar situation with honesty issues. I�m particularly interested in whether there are any mens� support groups, either online or in person around the country, to help implement and establish a commitment to the PORH and POJA, and the other principles put forth here on MB.com. Thanks for reading.....

You sound somewhat like my husband and your wife sounds like me.
We found this site before we ended up in withdrawal which I'm so glad about but we have turned things around from the way they were heading.

I still don't trust completely that he will tell me everything I need to know but I have worked really hard on creating a safe space for him to tell me everything and things are now really good for the most part. He is beginning to actually say that he's angry with me for instance instead of trying to pretend everything is fine until he can calm down and try to forget anything happened.

My husband never did anything really bad either, he omitted to tell me about some mild porn use and some details about money and contact with his ex early on. A few other little things, like you say that were either to just avoid trouble since he didn't feel he'd done anything that bad but knew I would flip out, or to make himself look a bit better in my eyes.

It is possible to change and recover from this. Especially now before any infidelity has occurred or anything really big.
Your wife doesn't have to try to trust you, you can make that happen by showing her every day that you are trustworthy and will tell her every detail no matter if its likely to get you into trouble or make her feel insecure (my major issue).

Thank you Rosycheeks, I did find at least one other post that has helped me find another H in a similar situation. I also want to make clear that I'm not trying to minimize my lies as "little things". They were clearly lies that depleted her love bank, and were more than little things. I am trying to work toward avoiding justifying my actions by pointing to her perceived flaws, and instead focus on the programs advanced here, (I was just about to type a "but it's hard when..... but I stopped!)

Its great that you're here, you both have work to do, but since its her lovebank thats depleted you have the most work to do as you clearly know.

For years we focussed on MY PROBLEMS, why I was unable to trust him and we both thought there was something wrong with me because I just couldn't.

Finding this site, really figuring out that I couldn't trust him until he proved himself trustworthy by radical honesty made things so much easier. Took the pressure right off me and made it ok to just watch and wait.

Bad day. Feel like I've been shot....We went through the online MB seminar last night and all day today. At the end, my wife said she wouldn't and couldn't sign the Agreement. She said she'd rather start fresh with someone new using the MB principles than have to sift through thirteen years of baggage with me.....far more scared than hopeful now.....

It's my night with the kids. W left by herself a few hours ago saying she was going out. I put the kids to bed, trying not to cry. Our sensitive little five year old boy knows something is up, and we'll have to talk to him sooner rather than later about separation. What do we tell him??? He'll have so many questions that I can't answer. Thinking about this conversation breaks my heart.

Spent last hour and a half reading through articles and forums. So tired. So many questions, feelings and emotions. Found W's posts here from earlier this week, made me lose it. She sounded so hopeful, albeit cautiously so. What changed????

Have a phone appt with Sandy at MB on Monday, will try to keep my head down (up??), avoid LB's until then. Won't see W other than for childcare baton pass tommorow. Anyone have links or remember other men similarly situated to me, I'd appreciate it, as this is my only real support group right now.

_____________
Me 41
W 39

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: 5, 2 and 1

Your wife is posting here too? I haven't noticed her posts yet. Will have a look around. I hope someone else will answer who may be able to help more than I can. I never got to the point of wanting to give up on it all.

HBS,

Choose your goal for your marriage not based on what your W says, 'k? Choose to do everything possible to keep your family intact, and your marriage in love...and yes, do so even though it's really, really tough to do when separated.

Do, anyway.

I say this because you breaking your ingrained pattern is really important for yourself, your marriage, and especially your children. You want to look your sweet 5-year-old in the eye, ten years from now, and saying honestly (no lies) that you did everything possible.

Because your W's current statement (and she can say one thing today, another tomorrow, and something different the next, as you now) won't hold up, will it? When she looks him in the eye in ten years and says "Yes, for all the effort I put in to divorce your father and begin new again with someone else, I could have had a rocking marriage with your father. I thought that ditching the 13 years of marriage, including you guys, would make it easier. Instead, I got new baggage and broke everyone's heart."

You stick to yours, HBS...your path of redemption only lies through change...and I'd like to make a suggestion for you...

whenever you feel a lie coming on, stop and check to see if you're viewing the other person (your W, a boss, a bossy friend) as your mother. If you do that, and really see where you're engaging in a child/parent dynamic, then your adult self will take that moment and act equal to equal. They can take the truth of your actions...your stuff. They can't take the manipulation of lies, except from a child, testing the waters to see if they can float.

Truth doesn't sink you--it frees you to have true intimacy, acceptance, connection. Some of that may be through conflict (which isn't to be avoided), and some through joy...do it because you hold yourself to your code, not reacting to control an outcome.

Showing your kids how to do this frees them, too...and can lead your W to where your 13-years is not baggage; it was truly knowing each other as whole people, warts and all...and you attempting to not be known to her...and owning that. Changing that will change your life.

Write down your questions, your feelings (which are your emotions). Helps to clarify, see how they change. Another way of not lying.

Figure out if you really want to eliminate your LBs no matter what. I have the impression that you believe it's how you get your wife to fall in love with you...which is true...except you eliminating them because you do not want to be the person who makes selfish demands, verbally abuses, disrespects, lies or does independent behaviors is a much stronger goal, reinforces your personal code of conduct.

Picking your goals and your code enables you to work the MB concepts with consistency...reminding yourself you made these choices NOT dependent on your W's choices. Huge difference...because if you do the latter (based on how your W treats you) then you'll be meeting her ENs to get her to treat you right...and LB'ing when she doesn't. Not a way to fall in love, imo. When you know and meet her ENs from your choice to love her, have a great marriage in your future, then you'll fall in love with her, yourself and your marriage.

And you will act from love even when you don't have a lot of loving feelings.

And the feelings will follow.

Would you consider you based your lying on her possible reaction? So don't base your actions on her possible reactions. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves...did I want to control my spouse or really love them, instead?

LA

Thanks for your words LovingAnyway, I appreciate the advice.

I'm posting now, also, to correct a perfect example of my problem with honesty, even at a time when I know how important an issue it is to try to keep my marriage, and at a time when it should be at the forefront of my focus.

To be more clear, if you review my Saturday evening post from 11:53pm, I said in the middle of my post from Saturday night after my wife had left, "Found W's posts here from earlier this week, made me lose it. She sounded so hopeful, albeit cautiously so. What changed????"

In fact, I had seen her posts earlier in the week, on Wednesday, I think, but am not sure. Certainly before I posted my original introductory post on Thursday afternoon. While it was true that I had just reviewed her posts again as I was writing that Saturday night post, I chose my language to send a message that this was a "new" discovery. There is no other way to describe this but as a lie -- a manipulative lie to garner sympathy from this forum.

I apologize to the my wife and the forum, and will continue to try to work on my issues.

Hopeful,

Your posts have really touched me. I want to write more but can't right now. I very much admire your wife for telling you what she wants/needs. I did not do that...well, I made a half hearted attempt but did not follow through...instead, I committed the most agregious act of deciet and had an affair.

Keep on working on this for your wife and for yourself.

HBS,

You know what you just did in your last post? You owned what you did and why you did it...one more step and you're definitely on the road to changing your lifelong self-sabotage habit...

third part is to say why you won't do it again.

Seems innocuous (and yes, you may have told yourself how harmless these lies are); I'm guessing it's control of perception. Believe me, I've yearned for it myself many times...to control through omission, changing the tiny parts...and it's the control the listener feels...where the distrust accumulates.

We can detect when we're being controlled...I swear, it has an emotional odor.

Fear-based stuff. And to see how others react. Yet, the ONLY way to rebuild your self is to let go of others' response and check your own. And you can do this. One more part and you're there...and you'll keep being there.

Fear isn't what you really want to live from...choosing from love (holding your fear) is where you're free. Reacting to our own fear keeps us enslaved to our old habits...keeps in that loop of making the same choices and expecting different outcomes...hence, trying to control them.

And we cannot...biggest lie you tell yourself. Now you can just choose not to believe yourself.

That was brave...stay brave. You were your own accountability partner...stick with it. And it's really funny how we usually don't change from reacting from fear until we truly lose what we cherish most (which was our fear all along).

It's the not changing which causes the most loss.

What's your plan for saving your marriage today?

LA

Thanks LA, as usual, it's never as simple as it seems. I only "owned" what I did after I got caught, and I certainly tried to avoid getting caught. Owning what I do and why I do it, after the fact, is far easier than the third step you reference, at which I've failed miserably.

I've spent far too much time in my life defending, explaining, rationalizing and justifying why I am not honest, let alone radically honest. I even did that in my apology post, trying to "soften" the lie by stating that I had just re-read my W's posts, which was only meant to deflect away from the apology itself. A focus on this "justification" and why it is my first response is one of the things I'm most concerned about, and will be looking into, both here and on my own.

I've also failed to spend any of my focus on not only saying "I won't do it again", but also setting up structures and habits that will help implement this promise, as well as looking into exactly why I do it. I'm committed to changing all of this, and thank you all for your support.

You're welcome.

Exhausting, isn't it? All that energy in lying...and to justify is to lie, too.

Knowing and doing the steps, leaving off "only after caught" etc. is the way to act from commitment. Then you'll see your changes after.

It is your focus...when you put it there...and leave off the judgments (which is what fuels your seemingly innate desire to lie) and do those three steps.

By doing so, you'll get to where you really can do the third part...where you say how and why you won't do it again.

Because it will give you energy instead of sucking your energy away. Honesty IS connection (not dependent on outcome) so you will stop lying to change the outcome...as long as you keep amending (those three steps), you will repair all the damage you've caused over time to yourself, your wife, your marriage, your whole world.

Over time.

You don't trust yourself...absolutely sane not to--given every lie you've ever told was first told to yourself...and bought into. So you begin there (and that's what I saw you do), holding yourself to catching and owning what you do from habit. To rebuild your trust in yourself (which will never be blind trust...which is GREAT).

When folks buy into your lies, that is part of their half. I don't mind my gullibility...it's my weakness and my strength. I won't feel more for you or less for you as you change your life. I will be changed, nonetheless, if you share.

LA

Well, I�m hoping the MB forum can help me out on my current situation. My wife asked me to move out in the last few weeks because of the stress and anxiety she was feeling living under the same roof as me. I�ve rented our neighbors� small, mother-in-law cottage so I can stay close to the kids. We�ve separated against the advice of Dr. Harley and Sandy, who wanted us to stay together to work on the marriage and for my wife to hold me accountable on my honesty, but my wife respectfully disagreed with their advice, telling Dr. Harley: �I also cannot engage in a communicative manner that I would believe to be appropriate and constructive because the past and current deceit is ever present and ongoing. This impacts my ability to care for myself and my personal health, and the health of my kids.�

She has also said in her recent posts, �His lying in our relationship feels so out of control that I decided to handle it like I would with a spouse with an alcohol problem. I had to remove him from my environment so that he could get some help with this before/if I tried again. Being with him has been emotionally and physically exhausting and it started to take a serious toll on my ability to parent, be a boss at my office, and to take care of myself physically.�

I have been doing the honesty lessons/reading on my own, and have done my best to keep my wife apprised of my day to day activities. I have also given up all use of alcohol, all gambling, and any use of pornography, which were the primary crutches I�ve used in the past to deal with my side of our loneliness/withdrawal symptoms, and eliminating these vices has put an end to a huge chuck of what I was dishonest about with my wife�particularly over the past couple of years. I have also gone on medication for depression which should also help with a lifelong ADHD problem. I am committed to moving forward with transparency and full disclosure with my wife, and have been following the 4 steps from the LB book on dishonesty on my own.

Notwithstanding these facts, it is clear to me from the interactions I have had with my wife these past couple of weeks that she doesn�t believe I am being honest or that I can be honest. Her anger level is so high, and she has told me a couple of times in the last few days that she has a history of 13 years of not being able to believe a word I say, and that this is the only filter that she knows. Though we have no UA time, I have been doing my best to meet her EN�s (her top two are conversation and honesty), and to avoid LB�s when I�m around the house helping with the kids, but she�s on this forum and knows the drill. She�s told me that none of this is helping, that it�s not hurting, but that it�s not helping.

To the contrary, she told me this past Thursday that the only thing that will possibly start the reconciliation process, something that she has not yet committed to, will be a full disclosure of my historical dishonesty. At the same time, she has told me that she has no confidence at all that I will fully comply with this aspect of the program, and that she doesn�t want to hear half-truths or �I don�t remembers�.

I have coached with Steve Harley and Sandy as part of my seminar follow-up, and both have stated that the exchange of the personal history questionnaire is to be mutual, and that if we are not committed to the same goal of an ideal marriage with the MB program, that there is no point in my going through my historical dishonesty with her. I have not yet told my wife that this is what they told me last week, because I�m so worried about her reaction.

Notwithstanding their advice, the simple fact is that my wife is not willing to enter into the Contract to rebuild our marriage following MB principles unless I can convince her that I�ve been fully honest about my past. But she has all but said she doesn�t believe I will be/can be. She�s stated that she is moving on with her life as a single mother, but is not moving towards divorce with me, but is also not moving back towards me until this issue is resolved with these disclosures.

I talked with Sandy this morning for about 15 minutes and the conversation was helpful in allowing me to talk through my feelings, but, ultimately, she said she didn�t know what I should do as it is a personal decision separate from MB at this time. I told her I was going to post on this, even though my wife will likely see it, but I�m so scared, tired and anxious at this point, I don�t know what else to do....

____________
Me 41
W 38

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: 5, 2 and 1

Sorry for the bump, but I'm really hoping for some guidance on this issue. Any vets (or anyone for that matter) want to weigh in????

Hopeful, I'm not trying to get into a debate, just trying to understand, how does your past dishonesty impact the health of the kids to the extent that you have to leave the home? Do you have any other accountability partners to help with honesty issues? You've mentioned dishonesty with your wife about alcohol, gambling, and porn, what do you think about going to AA and getting a sponsor to help you. They also help you do a step 4 inventory, which includes the historical dishonesty, and step 5, which is to share this with God, yourself, and another person your inventory. And then later on, step 8, making amends. Just another thought, what do you think?

Could it also be, that you are placing unrealistic expectations on how long it will take to turn your marriage around?

You've been changing your ways for three weeks, now? That's not enough time for your wife to believe that this time, it really is different.

My husband married me and failed to disclose his addiction. We'd only been married for a bit over 5 years at that point. And it still took me a year and a half to have healthy trust in him again..

And, a bit of a tangent on NED's post..If you do not have addiction issues, have you consulted a lawyer about your wife's behavior? It find it interesting that she wants to move forward as a single person, yet still enjoy all the legal/financial benefits of being married. Do you know what her motivation for that is?

Thanks for the comments. NED, the comment about the health of my kids came from my wife, and I just don't know what she meant by this. This kids, so far, don't know about our separation. I can't give you an answer on some of the things my wife has said about me and our relationship, I'm just doing my best to respect her feelings as hers.

I am working with Sandy on accountability, and keeping notes of times where I have the impulse to be dishonest. I haven't ruled out AA, but need to look into it more.

As for your comments, inrecovery, I absolutely don't expect three weeks of "changed ways' to turn everything around, and I have been clear with my wife that my words mean nothing, only my actions will count. But, again, I can't show her any improvements on my day to day honesty when we have no time together, which has been the point of the Harley's and Sandy from the beginning.

So now the issue I'm struggling with is what to do from here given what she's asked of me?

This probably doesnt help much, but

dont give up.

It really is true. This HAS to be something you are doing for more than just her. Its going to make you a better example for your kids, and a more pleasant person to be around, just a couple more reasons, I am sure there are many many more.

I was trained to lie from about the age of 4. I had an abusive parent who for many reasons would only catch my brother maybe 1 in 5 times that we lied. The punishment for anything was very severe, and the additional punishment if we lied about it was relatively nonexistant compared to what would happen whether we lied about it or not. For this reason, we lied about and hid pretty much everything, and stayed out of trouble 4/5ths of the time we did anything "wrong."

Not a neat way to grow up, and not easy to change. It took me a long time. Like people have said, that step at the end about WHY its important to you and your plan. I had never read anything about psychology or seen a counselor or anything at the age of 16 when I escaped that situation, but thats the main step I took. Stop talking, think "is this honest?" and then tell myself WHY I WANTED to be honest, and then say the honest statement. It took several years to become consistant, and I still have to stop and think quite often when the temptation to take the "easy" way out and lie or omit the truth pops up.

I wish I had had sites like this or the people I know now or been to counseling before this, I am sure it wouldnt have had to take the better part of a decade to fight this.

BTinTrouble,

Thanks a lot for your input. It helps more than you know. Talking with people such as yourself is exactly what I've been trying to do since being introduced to this site six weeks ago.

It has been a struggle, and I'm sure it will continue to be, but I am committed to changing regardless of whether my wife makes the decision to try to reconcile with me. If you have no objection, I'd like to add you as a "friend" here, and will always appreciate your insights and feedback.

HBS