I disagree with this. Waywards do lots of things while high on the affair that are utterly disgusting to them when the high wears off. If they aren't disgusted, then they probably are not really recovered and don't feel any remorse. I did things while an active alcoholic that did not disgust me then, but greatly disgust me now.

But I have to ask: what kind of a husband would WANT their wife to perform a sex act with him that he knew she disliked?

Yes they are locked into a circular game of tag. I couldn't of stated what you said any better."

So will you again try to explain how this BH will be convinced why he should not get what the OM got."

This BH is hung up on that point. I think threesomes are bad. However whatever this WW did the OM did not hold a gun to her head and force her.

She did it.
She kept going back for more.
Then she kept doing it after her BH knew what she was doing with the OM for another year.
How bad could it of been to do it all that time then continue after her BH found out?

This is what her BH is thinking. Change his mind. What words do you have that will make the BH see the error of his ways?

I thank you in advance melody.

No one is suggesting she do something that disgusts her. However, almost everyone is saying they don't buy the idea that something she did with the OM was something that disgusts her.

Unless it was done at gunpoint, she was a willing participant. The burden is rightly on her to convince her BH in a fashion that he and he alone gets to judge if he believes her, that he should buy the idea that while she freely offered that act to the OM, he should accept that that very act disgusts her.

I'm certainly not saying she should do it. I'm saying that she has to convince him in a way that is credible to him that that is the case.

It's going to be a tough sell, and her BH may rightly not buy that argument and simply see it as continued selfishness on her part.

Remember, ultimately her BH is the one who judges if any particular act is more or less THRILLING than any other act. So she runs the risk of not being able to do what you suggest by keeping things off the table. Especially if she willingly engaged in such acts with the OM.

So I'm not suggesting she force herself. But I am suggesting that she has put her marriage at risk and continues to put it at risk if she refuses something to her BH that she freely gave to the OM.

Melody, so let's take a look at what you say because it greatly supports my argument.


This is the burden the WW faces. The BH is keying in on this fact. If she's always refused a particular act to her BH, but freely gave it to the OM, her BH is going to conclude she never and still doesn't love him, but loved the OM enough to try this very act.

So what is she going to do to convince her BH that she loves him more while continuing to say no to something she freely said yes to the OM.

He will conclude that either she doesn't love him, or that she's simply selfish.

You've written the very piece that supports what I'm saying.

Remember, I've never once said she should engage or not engage. I've simply presented how her actions likely will be perceived and you've filled in a key part of my argument.

The BH will not perceive that he is loved more than the OM if she continues to reject him for something she freely gave the OM. The BH will perceive that she loved the OM more and may NEVER have loved him, due to the very words you wrote that I quoted for emphasis.

So understand, I'm not saying she should. What I'm saying is she needs to understand that her actions will not be viewed as loving by her BH.

And as I've said time and time again, the burden of proof for her love and protection is 100% on her.

Because.....my A was 4 1/2 years ago and my children are 12 and 14. I will not be taking a blood test, not because I had two other secret flings that no one knows about, but because A) I did not have an A 15 or 13 years ago and B) my DH has the character, the strength, and the ability to forgive enough that he doesn't need me to do that.

If DH wants to question the parentage of his kids, then I will move heaven and earth to settle his doubts, but I'll be damned before some stranger who doesn't know me is going to imply that my DH's children are not his just because THEY can't brush off the giant chip on their shoulder.

I was weak and afraid for a long time. I'm not anymore. I know who I am and so does my DH - the only man whose opinion counts.

I don't remember anyone telling a man or woman to do what and where if they hated it, though, or if it was a trigger for memories of the OP. It's all subject to POJA.


A recovered marriage where the wayward has no say in things after "recovery" is not a recovered marriage.

And who would want that? You messed up, so now you are my slave? I don't want a slave; I want to be IN LOVE FOR LIFE.


He doesn't have to accept it. If the lack of these sex acts is a dealbreaker for him, he can and should divorce his wayward wife. If the terms of recovery that she can offer are not acceptable to him, he doesn't have to accept it. He should not attempt to build a marriage on his resentment; that is not fair to anyone involved, least of all himself.

I only posted to OOK's thread because I felt strong enough to try to be helpful. But I will NOT post on a forum where some man who is bitter at his own wife is going to question how many affairs I REALLY had and whether the children who have their father's eyes/ mouth, mannerisms, etc. are really his because obviously since I strayed 4 years ago nothing I say or do has any value. maritalbliss and Mel and writer....thank you. But I'm not going to be called a whore by someone I. Never. Betrayed. I'm out.

Bingo.

I think the problem here is an erroneous assumption that the WW did what she did with the OM out of love, when in fact, A's have very little to do with being in love. Certainly, the wayward believes they are in love with the OP, but love involves many things that are simply not present in an A. The WW is not acting out of true love when she does things that she would normally find repulsive and disgusting with the OM. She is acting out of desperation to hold onto her addiction, and she will often do things she would never normally do in order to assure that she continues to get her "fix" from the OM. That has absolutely nothing to do with love.

And according to the Love Bank model, who is it who is responsible for taking actions that can create the environment for her to feel in love with him?

If she does not feel in love with him, he does need to reach exactly the conclusions you are saying, and he needs to act on that fact. He needs to be very concerned with whether or not she feels in love with him. And he needs to accept the truth of her feelings, not get mad at her for not feeling the way he wishes she would.

I found an old post that Dr Harley wrote about a pastor who was "demanding" that his wife give him oral sex [the actual thread was lost in the October 2009 board crash]:

Lemme ask ya this......

If a WS robbed banks and went on a killing spree while she was in the disgusting and inexcusable fog....does she need to "prove" she loves BH by robbing some banks and shooting some people with him??? That question sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. I didn't have any 3somes. I didn't have anal sex or wear costumes or have OM dress in a diaper or whatever. What I DID do was sleep with him....and that fact alone is perverse. It wasn't the technique that made my A perverse....it was the fact that I had one.

I have been thinking a lot about DH lately, and the fact that he stayed. The fact that he stayed is in itself amazing, but it wasn't the mere fact that he stayed that helped us recover. It was WHY he stayed. He stayed because he was able to practice forgiveness, because he loves me, because he made a promise to me and to God and he wanted to keep it, because he believed in his heart of hearts that we could survive and thrive. He didn't stay so that he could be a perpetual victim or so that he could have the satisfaction of punishing me anytime he wanted or because he wanted a tangible and constant reminder of how morally superior he is. If THAT was why he stayed....I don't think either of us would have really recovered.

Again....honestly.....the more of this thread I read the more thankful I am for my DH.

Bingo!! That is a correct conclusion. She doesn't love her H. That is what I have been saying. So the first step is to RESTORE love to the marriage. That is called recovery.

So you are blaming him for the affair?

I doubt her affair made him feel loved. Therefore, if the WW wants recovery, she has to do what it takes to make him feel loved.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have to do those things that would lead her to feel loved. However, once she is the WW, I think she has to go first and go without expectation of anything until she has proven that she is a safe and loving partner.

If she doesn't want to do that, then she is at risk of losing her marriage.

This gets said alot here. Note, though, that Dr. Harley's model is behavioural, while the above statements put a moral/ethical gloss on things (it can't be love because the surrounding conditions are not consistent with an ethical view of what true love is.) Whereas, MB simply says if your LB is full because your ENs are being met you will be more willing to meet the other person's ENs and even enjoy doing so in that context. So, it's perfectly understandable why a particular BH might use the shorthand (she loved the OM more) to describe a situation where the OM clearly was meeting some ENs that BH does not appear to be givn that WS is now unwilling to do the same things.

No arguments. I'm simply suggesting she will have a steeper and longer climb if she offered something to the OM that she has refused her BH.

EE, how can she prove something that doesn't exist? She is not in love with her husband! And how can she love a man who makes selfish demands and angry outbursts? Those are lovebusters that have destroyed her feelings for her H.

The solution is for both to STOP the lovebusters, meet each others emotional needs to create romantic love.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

I would say that it is "LOVE," but it an unsustainable love because of the inherent problems in an affair. It is like a crack high. Crack addicts "love" crack when they are under the influence of crack. But that high quickly wears off when reality sets in. And when a crackhead recovers he doesn't still "love" crack, because a more sustainable love [a healthy recovery] has taken its place.

This is why it is so important to create a romantic relationship in the marriage after an affair. It fills a gap left by the affair.

Who said the hypothetical BH's demands are selfish? I clearly said he made a respectful request.

So the BH has made a respectful request for something both prior to the affair and once again after the affair and his WW's willing participation in the behavior is well known.

So he's made a respectful request for this act, no selfish demands at all.

How is he supposed to perceive continued refusal?

What do you suggest the WW do to rebuild romantic love given her actions are telling her BH that she doesn't love him?

As long as she continues to reject his respectful request for something she freely gave the OM, then she is making her task to prove her love even more difficult.

Not every request for something in the bedroom is a selfish demand. And certainly not in the scenario I clearly spelled out.

So let's go with the BH made a respectful request since that's clearly what I said before.

You know what is funny about this? When DH and I went through hysterical bonding, I felt - for the first time in our M - completely uninhibited. I poured out the kind of passion on him that I had always wanted to. DH asked me after a few weeks if I was doing X because I had done it with OM. The answer was no. I had not done that with OM. What was DH's response? He was relieved. He told me as we lay there holding each other that he couldn't bear the thought that I might be reliving with him something that OM and I had done. This led to him asking me questions and me giving him a verbal and written detailing of every single thing that had gone on during the A. But the funny thing is....he didn't want to be some OM reminder. He didn't want to think that that me (TMI alert) tying his hands together with one of my scarves and ravaging him was something I had learned with OM. Because he didn't want ANYTHING we shared to be tainted by my A.

Since he is the only BH I have any really close and intimate experience with, I guess the thought that a BH would want his FWW to list every act she did with OM and then proceed to do them all with him seems foreign. My DH didn't WANT to have some sexual connection to the OM. He just wanted US. He wanted US, he wanted our marriage, and he wanted to be together to raise the children that are absolutely and undeniably his.

I also want to shre this: 2 years after D-Day, DH asked me to please try to find a Christian counselor to talk to. Because he couldn't bear to watch me keep wearing that scarlet A. He didn't view me through the lens of spring/summer 2006....and it broke his heart that I still viewed myself that way. He wanted me to see myself as he saw me....the woman he loved who wasn't perfect but who had shown that she could get up after a terrible fall and go on to do right.

And THAT is a big part of why I am so thankful for him, and why - even with the challenges we still face from time to time - I know I will never meet another man of such character, true manliness, and grace as my DH.

So maybe the reason I have trouble understanding the typical male point of view on this one is because my amazing DH is anything but typical.