MrsRecon,

You just need to be able to look at today, and love him into the future. What that means is to be able to see past the "now" enough to know that the investment is worth it.

What ended up happening with my daughter is very interesting, and well worth knowing. Her boyfriend was cheating on her, and she wanted guarantees about "investing" the work it would take to patch up their relationship (as well as the college deal, which was really just another life lesson in investing, really).

I talked with her about the concepts of MB, but didn't use the website, because she just wasn't interested. She didn't want "that kind of help" (of course, you know young people!).

Basically, her BF wanted her to be only with him, and he wanted to be able to date the other woman too. She says "NO WAY" to this idea. He was a typical wayward. My daughter is a traveling musician, and in their relationship had also had a ONS, which added to the mix. Their relationship was not a marriage, and they had thought they wanted an "open" relationship, then changed their minds, then changed again. They had no formed boundaries, and yet they seemed to want some.

But she wanted to try to work it out, because she did love the man, and they had been together for about two years.

I talked with her about one single concept. That is the idea that if you work on a relationship with a person it is an investment. However, it is not like a financial investment where you can lose money and it is gone forever. A relationship - whether you stay together or the two of you walk away from one another in the end, is worthy of an investment either way. Because, YOU gain, even if the relationship ends.


Truth there.

If you invest and work on the relationship, YOU gain. The key is that YOU have to INVEST. If you don't, then you do lose.

Let's say you invest, and it works. You win! Enough said.

But, let's say you invest, and the relationship fails.

You still win. How is this so?

You learned how to work on your own faults.
You learned how to spot emotional needs in another person, and work to meet those needs.
You learned how to better negotiate with another person.
You learned how to control yourself during disagreements.
You learned how to better communicate your needs to another person, even through difficult times.
You learned to practice patience, you learned to practice persistence, and you learned to overcome obstacles in a relationship.

The list goes on.


You also learned what you need, like, do not like, what you can and cannot live with, and what you will and will not accept in the NEXT relationship.

You learned how to choose a better partner next time.


My DD finally figured out what she wanted, and she and her BF sat down and negotiated their relationship. The decided to try again, and actually used the concepts we discussed (they had no idea these were MB concepts - POJA, O&H, ENs, etc.). The two started over, and DD was in Plan A and the BF was NC. He was not good at NC, and was not good at his boundaries. He was also very poor with DJs and AOs. The couple lasted another two months, and my DD left the relationship. She realized that despite the changes SHE had made, he was unwilling to make the relationship stronger. He wanted what HE wanted


and was not willing to have a true partnership that was mutual with her.


She had invested herself.

And, although she left that relationship, she carried with her some new ideas. Concepts that she would never had learned, never had practiced, and never had considered before. She saw how they worked FOR HER. She came out of the relationship a much stronger person, changed for the better.

She found a new way to talk to someone about issues - instead of fighting. She told me once that the BF was angry about something, and she said to him, "Well, we could sit down and talk about this calmly. We could each take a few minutes to say what we think, and the other could listen openly, and not judge. We could respect the other's opinion and feelings, and we could agree on a solution that works for both of us. OR, we could stay up all night and you could yell at me, I could cry, and we could be miserable. I pretty much choose talking."


He chose to yell. She left him the next day.




A month or so later, she ran into a man that she had dated a few years earlier. The last time she had seen him, he had asked her out but she would not speak to him because she had her EPs in place, and told him did not spend time with single men when she was on the road!!!!!!! Despite her EPs, he did try to convince her to talk with him, just for old time's sake, he still held feelings for her, but he would be good....and she said NO, she had a BF and she did not place her relationship into any position that might be uncomfortable for her BF while on the road - certainly he could appreciate this. Perhaps another time when other friends were around, or maybe when her BF were there, they could have coffee. He reluctantly agreed, but she told me he wasn't happy about it at the time.


Well, she ran into this man again, and he asked her if she was still with her BF, and respectfully asked how the BF was doing. She told the man she was single, and unattached, not dating.

He asked her out. She asked him if HE was dating anyone! He told her no, he also was single..........

They are married now. And she travels for a living, still. Funny thing about those EP's.


He KNOWS she uses them, doesn't he? Because she was pretty firm with him. He wasn't too happy about those EP's back then.

Now?

He thinks they are the greatest thing ever invented.


So that investment pays off. Just like putting enough gas in your tank to get to the end of the driveway, and beyond. That investment is for YOU

not for anyone else.


You have NO guarantee that the sun will rise.


You do not know what the plan is for your life. You might have plans, but life has a funny way of throwing you curves. You will carry everything you learn with you, every investment in yourself with you.


Nobody can ever take away your self-investment. So go ahead and invest in your marriage, and put everything you have into it. It is worth it - win or lose.

There is no lose.


SB

schoolbus, as always, you rock!

I think fear is the killer, it really is. Fear of that unknown future, whether you're a BS or a FWS.

And if we can learn to let go of that fear, then possibilities open to us. Yes, possibilities can run the gamut from bad to worse or things can be better than we'd ever hoped and dreamed.

I'd give anything for H and I to deal with our fears together, head-on, but that may never come to be. I had my chance, and I blew it, big time.

I think we all are capable of learning. It's what we do with the knowledge that defines us.

I heard this last week:
It was in a lecture about teaching students from the "new" generation (those crazy Gen Y-ers, Millenials, whatever you want to call them!), but it applies to so much, in particular the knowledge that we've gained - however painful - about how to have a good marriage. We can choose to apply it, and maybe our M "hatches" into something new and wonderful, or we can try to stay in our shells...

Although some smart-aleck in the lecture pointed out that we could also become omelets...I'm scrambled, myself.

An update, for anyone still following along...

September and October are "anniversary months" for me. Mid September is the anniversary of CGIR's and my first date, 30 years ago. Early October is CGIR's wedding anniversary. And late September (in three days), is the one-year anniversary of my biggest D-Day, the one where CGIR told me the truth about three affairs - one that I thought was ancient history, one that I never knew about, suspected or would have even thought was possible and one that I had known about and had been struggling mightily over.

It's also (possibly) CGIR's one-year anniversary of "truthful living."

In the three-decade history of our relationship, he has never gone a whole year without lying to me.

So, he's either turning a corner or hiding his deceptions much more skillfully - not sure which one to believe.

I don't think he's having an affair or contemplating having an affair right now, but did he go a year without looking up OW on the internet? I'll never know.

Even if he has been truthful, I don't think we're out of the woods yet. Over the summer, a situation came up where CGIR got too much money. I was with him, and he returned the money. We got to talking hypothetically, and he said that if I had not been with him, he probably would have kept the money and not told me about it (lie of omission to both keep the money and avoid having to listen to me become upset). I became upset, and after arguing (the crux of the argument was my question to CGIR: Does O & H to you mean not having another physical affair, or does it mean living an O & H life, whether or not anyone is watching?), CGIR said he saw my point of view, and now felt that he would have returned the money on his own.

The truth, or a lie to shut me up on the topic?

Anyway, no questions, just an update.

Thanks to anyone and all who are listening.

BV

Character is what you do in the dark - that is, when you think no one is watching. This is the perfect illustration of what that means.

If you only do the "right" thing to avoid punishment and can easily do the "wrong" thing if you think no one will know - you have done nothing "right" at all and are still a fundamentally dishonest person. And being fundamentally dishonest is going to eff up your life over, and over, and over, and over again.

Glad you are still together and working on this, though. Hang in there.

I'm wondering if his comment about the money was a way to try to compliment you - telling you that you have helped him in his path to become more honest. That his being with you is leading him to be a more honest person, and that he leans on you for that. And that he still "needs" you for it.

His honest in this situation is good, because what he told you was that he still was tempted. The truth here? Studies show that most people would keep the money. Sad fact of our society. He told you because.......

he now feels confident enough to tell you what he is thinking


instead of hiding it from you.


That, BV, is progress. Consider that in the past he would never even have told you anything, kept the money, and covered it all up even if you figured it out.



There are true changes there.



That's my take on his comment.


As far as his second thought about his not taking the money? Maybe yes, maybe no. Hypotheticals are interesting to throw around and speculate about. Consider that we all say...

"If my spouse had an affair, I would divorce him/her"


and look where we find ourselves today.



Hypotheticals are funny that way. They are worth about as much as the fantasy they are.



SB

Dear Mulan:

Thanks for the encouragement!

BV

Dear Schoolbus:

Thanks for reading and posting.

Well, it is past midnight where I am, so CGIR has made the one year mark. One year of not lying to me; one year of not doing things he'd need to lie about.

That's a personal best.

CGIR has said that it is easier this way; he also said tonight that he feels I am doing better with what we euphemistically call "the past."

He's also said, though, that if he were not with me, he doesn't know if he would continue to be honest; he doesn't know if he would apply the principles he's learned to a new relationship.

Does he WANT to be a better person and sees he can be a better person with me, or does he wish he could still be the person he was, but has resigned himself to the fact that he HAS to change to be with me?

I've compared it to eating vegetables and exercising instead of eating chips and dip and watching TV.

You KNOW vegetables and exercise are better for you; you can SEE the benefits of vegetables and exercise, but you WANT chips, dip and TV. No matter how many new, good habits you form, no matter how remote you try to keep the chips and dip, veggies and exercise never quite measure up.

CGIR knows that being with me means a veggies and exercise lifestyle. Not always the most gratifying choice, but probably the wiser choice, the choice more likely to result in long-term gain.

OW, porn and secrecy offer a chips and dip lifestyle. The fun choice, the immediately gratifying choice, but probably the riskier choice, the choice more likely to result in an unpleasant consequence.

I just wish that I could feel like the "chip choice" - the "I want to" choice, not the "well, I should" choice.

BV

I know my situation is trifling compared to several situations currently going on, but here it is, in the interest of fairness and balance:

A few days ago, I posted about a situation where CGIR got too much money and told me if I wasn't with him, he probably would have kept it....

Yesterday, CGIR and I were in a store to get a receipt to submit to our insurance company for some repairs we had done. The vendor offered to give us a receipt for 15% more than we were paying for the work. He said it was "above board" to take the increased receipt because it was the regular price he would charge for the work. (He had given us a "good customer" discount since we had a lot of work done with them). The vendor didn't make this offer just once, he made it a few times.

CGIR said no, we would just take a receipt for the amount we were actually paying.

Although I was with him in the store (which would have prevented him from getting the other receipt, even if he wanted it), he did seem genuine about his decision.

Stopping the story here now, before I ruin it with pessimistic deconstructions.

BV

P.S. Schoolbus - thank you for the realistic POV about "hypotheticals."

bv,

Life being lived in honesty is a strange world for CGIR.


He is walking in new shoes. At first they felt strange. He was used to wearing flip-flops, or going barefoot.

Now he wears closed-toed shoes all the time. He wasn't used to that. He felt constrained, and unsure about how these shoes would feel. He was sure there would be blisters. He was sure he would hate them.

Only he began to see that he stopped having cuts and bruises on his feet all of the time, from stepping on glass and stones. He stopped getting stickers in his feet, and he could walk many places now where he would never have been welcome before. These new shoes not only work to take him anywhere, he gets more mileage, more compliments, and is respected when he wears them.

He isn't used to that. He was used to being treated differently, having to figure out how to skirt around and take side paths to avoid things. Now, he can stroll right up to the front door of anywhere.

This honesty deal opens doors. It really is an easier life.

Barefoot might look like it is less constrained, but he just might be figuring out that he is a whole lot happier when the stress and anxiety of dishonesty has been removed from his world.


He may have decided that those shoes feel really nice. The warmth feels good.

SB

Today is my wedding anniversary - 24 years.

23 years of no communication, dishonesty and denial false premises and beliefs.

1 year of some honesty (maybe, hopefully) and sadness.

CGIR and I went out over the weekend, to try to have a nice time. Due to miscommunication and misunderstanding, we lost each other (physically, as in "I don't know where you are") for about 45 minutes. (We should have only been apart for about 2 minutes).

CGIR thought I was sick and sent someone to look for me.

I thought CGIR had found someone else and was blatantly disrespecting me with another person. (We did not know anyone else at the place we went; I thought he just found a random person). I thought I would be asking CGIR to leave that night and starting the process of divorce. I was crying.

When we found each other, I felt bad that I will always have to consider these interpretations of routine events.

I'm sure CGIR felt bad that his wife thought he would have sex with a stranger in a public restroom while she waited outside.

A nice day/night ended in silence.




CGIR likes our anniversary.

I don't like our anniversary. I keep feeling like our wedding was a giant joke on me.

Sometimes I wish I could have a "do-over" wedding, but I know I would only be fooling myself, that for me it would be a meaningless event. It makes me sad that the only person CGIR could promise to be faithful to and mean it, the only person he could have a REAL wedding with is another woman. (Disclaimer: This is my opinion only. I understand that others may be able to feel differently).

Anniversaries suck.

BV

Ours was on the 25th of September. The day after my birthday. Always ignored my birthday in favor of the anniversary.

Now... well now, my birthday is mine, damnit!

I've faced nowhere near the betrayal you have BV... but, yes. Anniversaries suck.

Guess some day, we'll have to make a new one, eh?

Today is my wedding anniversary as well. 14 years. Only I am the one who made our wedding into a giant joke on my BH. Like CGIR, BV, I always liked our anniversary, but even especially so after my A was revealed, b/c I placed new importance on my M...although it was an importance I should have held onto previously, and by then it was too little, too late.

But this year, because of me, today pretty much sucks for me too. And no one to blame but me, as I'm the one who ruined what should have been something special.

I like HHH's suggestion of someday making a new one. I think others on these boards have done so, as our actions as WS's truly tainted the original day. If my BH suggested that to me, I'd do it gladly...but that step, that decision, would be yours, BV, just as it would be any BS's decision to create a new anniversary to somehow honor the restoration of the M.

BV,

I totally understand about it being a joke, that is the way I still feel. I do look back on the reception fondly as it was a lot of fun. But the actual exchanging of the vows, not so fondly. It is hard for me to even pick out a card for that day as they are so "mushy"!

Hang in there,

ba

To anyone who might be following along....

I'm trying (uncharacteristically) a positive post. I will try posting positively for two weeks to see what happens.

The title of this first positive post is: "Nice Things CGIR Did This Weekend."

This weekend, it was unexpectedly snowy where we are. Weather/road conditions were pretty bad. CGIR also has a pretty bad cold.

CGIR drove me to drop off entries for a competition and to pick up tickets for a winter concert I would like to see. Earlier in the week, CGIR went to MANY stores trying to get me the materials I needed to prepare my entries. The items I asked him to get were not available, and he purchased replacements. When I said I didn't like the replacements, he took them back and found what I originally wanted.

CGIR took me out for lunch.

When we got home, large branches had fallen across out driveway, blocking our way. CGIR moved them out of the way while I waited in the (warm, dry) car.

CGIR went back out with me to pick up an entry that wasn't accepted in the competition. He offered to go by himself to pick it up, even though it would have meant a walk through the cold and snow, since I wouldn't be there to run in while he waited. (An aside - as we were picking up my entry, another couple was also there, older than us. The husband (I assume) waited in the car while his obviously disabled wife took a long walk in the snow to pick up her entries. The pick-up location was on the second floor, and she struggled with the stairs as well).

Our power went out. CGIR drove out in pretty unpleasant conditions to get fast food for all of us, including my nephew, who was staying over. The food was mainly for my nephew, as the adults had things to eat. The thing that makes this particularly nice is that we both KNEW in advance that my nephew would refuse to eat the food once it arrived. My mother just felt guilty not having any hot food for him.

The next morning (when it had dropped overnight to 55 degrees indoors), CGIR got up, went to Dunkin Donuts and got everyone coffee.

He went outside to shovel snow, and let me stay in bed and read.

After the power returned, he did the laundry, cleaned the kitchen, ran the dishwasher, dusted, vacuumed the house and cleaned a bathroom. He did not request any participation from me.

This is all actually pretty standard behavior for CGIR.

Shutting up now, before I began my usual process of deconstruction.

BV

Hi Broken,

Brrr!!! Snow........not looking forward to the snow starting..... It is very beautiful though......

I am glad you are approaching the process of looking at the positives, you have a lot of good things in your life, if you focus on those things life will be better.....
Living in today and looking forward to tomorrow gives us all hope, the past days are long gone.......let them be broken.......
Keep posting for the two weeks, just love him for 2 weeks as well, see how happy you can be if you let yourself.........
You are the only one that can make yourself happy.......smile, giggle and just be free .......
I'll be watching for the new positive posts.........we could all use them

Reviving my thread - hard to believe it's been close to a year.

From Pepperband's thread "Using resentment as punishment," on the Recovery forum:


This was a very meaningful post for me, as it clearly stated what I have been feeling.

The tasks listed by indiegirl and oft-cited on the board represent, in my opinion, the WS spouse "cleaning up his/her side of the street." Essential and necessary tasks for the WS, but not necessarily producing a result for the BS.

In a way, like Plan A and personal recovery.


Had to quote this again. YES. EXACTLY. Pepperband, again, THANK YOU, because the way you structured this statement finally helped me realize why I so often feel such a disconnect between me and many of the posters on the board.

I think some BSs CAN and DO feel confident in their ability to discern lies from truth in the future, or they recover this confidence. I don't know why - perhaps it's the quality and nature of their past relationship(s), perhaps it's the quality and nature of their social supports, or perhaps it's just "them."

Anyway, it doesn't matter, because I think a person's tendency to agree or disagree with this statement ("YES!" or "Yes, but...) is one way to predict the likely speed and completeness of his or her recovery, whether it's marital, personal, or both.

I think the confidence to discern lies from truth in the future is crucial to recovery. I also think that this confidence returns so naturally to some people that it doesn't get discussed as a unique issue on the board.

And I think it's why some posters (ME, as an OBVIOUS example, perhaps KGaa, right now? and others) get stuck in the "WHY?" - since we don't have confidence in our own ability, we're looking for confidence in facts - a finite, knowable set of satisfiable sentences.

Hope I've made some sense here - if not, Pepperband, take the post for it's intent.

THANK YOU.

BV

More dark reflections to come....

You are most welcome.

This is my hope...dead on re: lack of confidence in their own ability to discern truth from lies[i] in the future.

My FWW was very good at living a SSL that discerning lies from the truth was impossible. She would look me right in the eyes and lie.

It is very much an issue that I haven't seen explored.

It appears that many of the most seasoned vets focus on the 'new, hard cases' so to speak that pop up here. Yes, many new posters need immediate help but there are others (myself and FWW included) that would find great benefit of the Vets helping us more who are in R.

Actually .......


There is more to this.

I am certain a person, including my spouse, could lie to me convincingly ... but not forever and probably not for long.
After the infidelity roller coaster ride, we become better *sniffers* and our curiosity/suspicions becomes aroused sooner.
We grow more confident in our abilities to ferret out the facts. Because we're experienced. Seasoned. Battle tested, if you will.

Additionally, we all have the ability to gain confidence in ourselves to know we can and will make better decisions ... IF there is a *next time*. We sharpen our antennae and fine tune our *bull-crap-meter" as well as dialing up our "something is amiss radar". These heightened tools can be employed at a moment's notice.

Have confidence that you know what your limit is as well.
If you are not confident in that, you have some work to do.

I agree that my husband could no longer conduct an affair and lie to me about it for any length of time. And, as I have told him, should there be a next time, I will not waste my time with do-it-yourself methods; I'm going straight to the professionals.

And I don't think he's having an affair now, nor interested in finding one.

My current problem is that I need his feedback on some personal things, but when he gives it, I don't trust it. What's his motivation? Is he telling me what he honestly thinks and feels, or is he just telling me what he thinks I want to hear so I'll shut up?

Here is just one example:

Right now I'm having a big problem with body image (mine). (Not a new problem, but an exacerbation of a long-standing problem). Basically, I'm not capable of judging how I look any more. I need some EVIDENCE, as my former therapist would say, that my opinions are inaccurate. The only person I can ask is my husband.

I need him to answer me honestly, without SPIN. ("You're beautiful inside," "You're beautiful to me," etc. don't work for me. I want his HONEST, unvarnished opinion about how others perceive my physical appearance). And I need for his opinion to be consistent and reliable. Over the past 30 years, he's told me everything from I'm unattractive and my personality makes me ever more so to I'm beautiful when I wake up in the morning with flat hair and mascara under my eyes. I need a RELIABLE opinion and to ensure reliability, I have to ask questions many times and many ways.

I can't trust his answers. I have no confidence in my ability to determine if he's telling the truth or lying for his own benefit (i.e., to shut me up so we can "have a good time").

And this is just one example.

Does he really want an intimate relationship with me, which requires honesty? Or does he want a room-mates with benefits situation, which requires politeness and making sure not to hurt each other's feelings with say, honesty?

I'd love to ask him, but I can't.

It's pointless, as I have no confidence in my ability to discern truth from a lie.

Kind of see what I'm getting at?

Hoping this made some sense -

BV

P.S. And, for the record, this type of situation makes me RESENTFUL.