AGG, the main reason that compatibility is CREATED when it comes to SF is because one must learn how to please that SPECIFIC person. Sexual enjoyment is highly individual and unique much like color preference. As such, each partner has to TEACH the other how to please them in a way that makes them both happy.

That is why all that is necessary is romantic love, the willingness to please and perhaps compatible energy levels, as Harley mentions above. All of those elements can be determined without having sex before marriage.

TY for the birthday wish!

I wish you well on your search when you are ready to get out there again. It takes time. I agree that when the person does not respect your values the person should be 'kicked to the curb'. The problem for me is sticking to that. I tend to be a bit on the 'needy' side in relationships, fearing that I will not find the next person, so I tend toward the people pleasing side. A trait I am not happy about. I just don't know how to change that part of me.

Hi Markos, I listened to the radio link you provided as well as the one from BrainHurts. In the first one from BrainHurts, Dr. Harley makes it clear that he and Joyce are opposed to premarital sex, but they don't say why.

In the second one, he advises a woman to stop having sex with her boyfriend as a way of determining whether or not he can be convinced to marry her. She loves her boyfriend, but he only likes her. By cutting out the sex, and trying to engage in Intimate Conversation, she'll be able to see whether or not he's in the relationship only because of the sex.

At one point, when talking about an article Dr. Harley was interviewed for regarding what it takes for singles to become bonded to each other, Joyce asks, "Intimate Conversation bonds, and then you want to go to that next level, and you're saying, no, don't go there before marriage?" Dr. Harley says, "No, what I'm saying is that if Sexual Fulfillment is the primary reason the man is in the relationship, it isn't necessarily going to cause him to fall in love."

In this case, I agree with Dr. Harley: a woman should not have sex with a man who isn't in love with her. (And vice versa as well.)

I'm wondering about two people who ARE in love with each other.

My personal feeling is that as long as the couple are in love with each other, bonded by Intimate Conversation, it's as natural as Joyce implied to want to take it to the next level. If I'm in a relationship like that, I agree with MelodyLane that compatibility doesn't need to be tested, it is pretty much assured:

Testing sexual compatibility seems reasonable though, and I wouldn't argue against it for people who feel the need for it.

My reason for having sex, either before or in a marriage, is mutual pleasure AND bonding. Although Dr. Harley says Intimate Conversation is more bonding than sex, he adds that sex does indeed deposit love units. If he's opposed to premarital sex, what's wrong with depositing sexual love units before marriage in a loving relationship?

A possible problem with premarital sex, at least for me, is that it deposits so many love units that it blows the ceiling off my Love Bank. By that I mean, it creates such an intense feeling of love that I might miss red flags that I otherwise would've seen had we not made love. This is not so much an argument against premarital sex as it is against engaging in sex too early in a relationship.

If Joyce and Dr. Harley are opposed to premarital sex, I wonder what their reasons are for a couple who are in love with each other and who don't have moral views that exclude sex before marriage. Anything documented anywhere about that?

Question for MelodyLane prompted by this:

What if the guy doesn't expect you to perform like that, but he sincerely loves you, you love him, you have spent enough time getting to know each other to know that your love is genuine and not infatuation, and you both feel the tug of sexual attraction and as you put it "romantic love and a willingness to please your partner and use the POJA." You're not concerned with exploring sexual compatibility because you've already determined that's not going to be a problem, rather you simply want to experience sexual bonding with each other.

Moral convictions aside, is there a practical reason to abstain from lovemaking before getting married?

Hi Lamby, I too, am a people pleaser, and I know how you feel. Have you read Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders yet? If not, I recommend it because it has good descriptions of our Giver and Taker and even a short description of the People Pleaser personality. I think the problem with People Pleasers is that they are unbalanced in favor of their Givers. I need to read the book again to have it really sink in, but I wanted to recommend it if you haven't read it yet.

First, I want to thank you all for your responses and discussion of this issue. Thank you for supporting me and serving as a sounding board as I work out the emotions surrounding these issues. Also, thank you for reinforcing what I knew to be true, which is that I need to decide what I believe (abstinence is best and pleasing to God) and stick to it. My fear has always been that I would not be able to find anyone who would be understanding of my decision and who would stick by me through it. I do not judge those whose decision is different from mine. It is God's place to judge. I simply know what I must do for myself.

Good Guy: I understand your viewpoint that monogomous sex during a dating relationship is not equivalent to that of an unpaid whore. Although it is not my decision to engage in extra-marital sex, I believe that it is something that each person must decide for themselves. Some people are able to engage in that activity and when things do not work out with their partner, they are able to separate and not have it affect them as strongly as others do. I find that I am very much affected by sex and attach strong emotions to this activity. Also, there are so many ways that a person can get into trouble engaging in extra-marital sex that makes it an undesirable activity for me. Tooooo many worries associated with it. It is much simpler to wait until you believe that you are with the right person and in a fully committed relationship before moving onto that step.

MelodyLane: Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciated reading from you about how compatibility is created, sexually. I believe that is true. I have only been in one committed sexual relationship, with my ex. Although it was not a perfect relationship by any means, we were able to please each other in the bedroom. Sometimes, you give to your partner's needs and other times, your partner gives in to your needs. The sexual relationship should be based on giving what the other needs along with fulfilling your own. If it is too one-sided (either way), then something is wrong. If both partners are committed to the relationship and seek to love each other as God intended (with compassion, grace, and forgiveness), then the details of the sexual relationship will work themselves out.

nesre,

Thank you soooo much for documenting these scriptures! I really appreciate the effort you took to look all this up. I especially appreciate the scripture in Hebrews 13:4 (ESV)
4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

For me, that says it all. Whether in or out of marriage, the marriage bed should remain undefiled.

As to the subject of my dating, I will continue to search for good dating relationships strengthened by my decision to keep the marriage bed clean. Also, I have three dates down and atleast 27 to go before I find the next one!

I've been on both of these sites. I had not one single match on eHarmony since I am so conservative. ChristianMingle seems to be good for chatting but I've not found it productive for finding dates. It was the same for the ChurchofChristSingles website. Lots of friends, but no dates. Thanks for the suggestions, though. I may try the sites again. It's been over a year since I've been on any of these. Good luck with your search!

KL. one practical reason not to have sex before marriage would obviously be pregnancy

It's hard to separate practical from moral.
Most moral laws have practical reasons behind them

Good point. I guess what I'm looking for are reasons similar to the reasons Dr. Harley uses to argue against living together before marriage.

I wrote earlier in this thread that I have mixed feelings about this topic. I don't feel so strongly about my views that I'm unwilling to be convinced otherwise. In fact, if I was dating a woman who didn't want to have sex before marriage, I would respect that and wouldn't stop dating her just because she felt that way. I'm looking for reasons why people, and Dr. Harley in particular, are opposed to premarital sex. I've seen some on this thread so far, and I suspect there are more.

More specifically, I'm wondering if there is evidence from Dr. Harley's counseling experience or his research that shows a negative correlation between premarital sex and subsequent marital satisfaction.

In his case against living together before marriage, he shows quite convincingly that couples who cohabit prior to marriage are more likely to have problems and be unhappy after they get married than couples who don't.

Are there any studies that show a similar effect for couples who have premarital sex?

Why not put this in an email to Dr Harley at the radio show, and get his reasoning directly from the source?

Hi Sugarcane, I've been thinking of doing exactly that. Thanks for the nudge!

The problem with studies is people have to be honest.
It's hard to cover up Living together ; people lie about pre marital sex .

Personally I don't use Dr Harley as a moral authority. I use the Bible as my moral authority. I use the expertise of Dr Harley to help me meet my obligations to God and my family.

I've heard Dr. Harley say on the show that the prospect of beginning a sexual relationship once married provides one heck of an incentive to GET married...and the converse is true as well (like why bother if we are already involved sexually, kwim?).

But that was only one line of reasoning. I'd like to hear him elaborate, so I second the motion of emailing the show.

opt

Done!

In the past, I've seen about a 2-week turn-around between sending an email request and having it answered on the show. I asked to be notified in advance if they decide to answer my question. It seems they have my email mixed up with someone else's, and I haven't been notified of previous email questions.

I'm not a regular listener of the show; I'd like to be, just can't seem to fit everything into my schedule. If someone (BrainHurts comes to mind ) hears the broadcast, it'd be great if they posted a link on this thread.

Yep, no sex before marriage would lead to short engagements, I agree with that! Not sure if that's a good or bad idea though.

Thanks, I appreciate that.


Yup, I understand that too, and am completely supportive of your choice. Personally, I also thought that Match was somewhat of a "hook-up" oriented site, which is why I tried to use other dating sites as much as I could. I did like Eharmony, and that is where I met my wife, but again, it's all a crapshoot, you never know where you'll find Ms/Mr Right, until you finally find them . Good luck to you!

AGG

lamby, you made a point that demonstrates my feelings perfectly. In order for women to enjoy sex, there must be an emotional attachment. If there is no committment then I am making myself vulnerable to a man who is in no way committed to me. If I have to perform as if in an interview for that committment then obviously I am not in a committed relationship.


An interesting thing I have learned about sexual compatibility since being here. It is very important to always do things together that you both enjoy. One sided pleasing is what creates incompatibility. If you do something for your spouse that he enjoys, but you hate, you will soon be sexually incompatible. The reason is because most people cannot do something they hate for long.