I have a question about Dr. Harley's policies regarding wayward wives:

Should the betrayed husband ever ask the wayward wife to leave the home? If so, when?

As a background to this question, I have seen numerous posts from veterans urging betrayed husbands to remain in the marital home; and tell the cheating wife that if she is going to carry on her affair she should do it out of the home.

Yesterday, Harley told poster abcda that he should not have insisted that his wife leave the home (as i encouraged him to do).
Harley said that abcda should have left the home if needed.

Are children the defining difference?

That seems like a question for Dr Harley himself.

I agree. Why don't you write Dr. Harley and ask him? Dr. Harley has made it very clear about how long a BH should remain in Plan A as opposed to BWs.

There are differences between BWs and BHs as Dr. Harley constantly speaks of on the radio show.

Here is the clip where Dr. Harley advised abccba.
Radio Clip of abccba's question

The problem with asking or demanding that a wife must leave the marital home in order to carry out her affair is that it confirms in her mind that he does not care for her or about her.

Dr. Harley has always supported divorce in the case of adultery; however, when a man wants to try and save his marriage, then a man's Plan A includes avoiding doing things that seem to punish the wayward wife. And making a wayward wife leave the home will seem like punishment. When she is with the OM and wondering about her choices as the affair falls apart, she will remember that her H kicked her out. She will believe that he does not care for her.

When a WW is having her A, the thoughts that a man wants to make sure his wife keeps in mind is that he loves her and cares for her and that their home is a safe place to return to.

Men can do a great Plan A without the same kind or degree of physical and emotional harm that often happen to women. Oh, Plan A still HURTS a man terribly, but the thing is, it doesn't generally damage him.

When there is blatant disregard for the husband with a wife brazenly flaunting her affair, then Dr. Harley will recommend the man leave the home, after seeing a lawyer for advice.

The goal, if desired, to win her back needs a strategy that shows a husband's care.

No, the main issue is if the husband wants to keep the marriage or not. In general if he wants to keep his marriage, he should Plan A for as long as possible. If that starts to become difficult, and he still wants to keep his marriage, he should enlist all avenues of support available to him, including antidepressants and all help possible from Marriage Builders. He certainly shouldn't attempt any of the above while leaving important Marriage Builders steps undone, i.e., exposure of the affair.

If a man gets to the point where he chooses to love bust his wife or is becoming suicidal, then saving his marriage is not an option, and he should enter Plan B. But even then he probably can't ask his wife to leave unless this is a specific legal option available to him. Long before that point he should probably have a lawyer advising him.

If a betrayed husband doesn't want to save his marriage, none of the above is applicable. And Plan B is indicated in certain very specific situations. But if he wants to keep his marriage, he should keep his wife at home and try to become the irreplaceable husband she needs. Confronting her, laying down the law, throwing her out, etc., is not the way to win back a wayward wife.

As I see it, there are two issues that we posters need to give Dr Harley's advice about; the first is about the length of time that a BH should carry out Plan A, and the second is about how he should separate from his wife when he cannot live with the affair any more, but still wants to recover the marriage at some time in the future when the affair dies.

On the length of Plan A, Dr H argues, for men who want to have a chance of recovering their marriage, to Plan A for as long as possible. He does not give six months as the maximum, as is sometimes posted here. He may have written sixth months in the old edition of SaA, but on the radio show every week he urges men to try for longer than this, if they want a chance of restoring the marriage when the affair ends.

If they want to divorce they should do that. Plan A is only for those who want to use the best plan to recover the marriage. It is not something that is used for a while until exposure and then, if the affair does not end, the BH tells the WW to continue her affair out of the home. If the BH kicks out his wife as soon as exposure fails to end the affair, his Plan A is only going to last about 2 weeks.

By definition, Plan A is used while the affair continues, which means that if the BH wants to use it, he needs to live with his wife while the affair continues, until he can take it no more. At that point he should move out for the reasons LongWay posted above. Dr Harley said on the show that if the BH tells WW to move out she will experience this as punishment and confirmation that the BH doesn't care for her - which is her justification in any case for having the affair. This will not help his chances of her returning to him after the affair ends.

It might be offensive to most people to entertain the thought of the BH doing Plan A in the home while his wife continues the affair, but that's what Plan A requires, until he gives up Plan A and goes to Plan B or straightforward divorce.

The BH isn't forced to Plan A. He isn't even urged to Plan A against his will; if he wants a divorce, Dr H would support that. But if he is trying to wait out the affair he needs to give the best impression of himself so that he can attract his wife back when it ends. He needs to Plan A for a long time to get the best chance of success, and neither Plan A nor Plan B include kicking the wife out of the home.

Unless kids are involved?
Surely the man would not leave the kids with the adulterous wife when he left the home?

Yes, this is the mistake I made asking her to leave, it was temporary accommodation that we had moved to get away from the OM so I have left now as well. I suppose it's more about the gesture than actually where we were living. It has been a blessed relief to not be in the awful atmosphere but in hindsight maybe I could have stuck it out for longer. Anyway not sure my situation is fixable now but that's ok, I still think I would have struggled to keep doing plan A in face of the affair.

There are almost always kids involved. Dr Harley did not write Plan A for childless men. Most marriages have children. The advice is that BHs hoping to recover the marriage should not kick out the WW.

Dr Harley advises seeking legal advice before leaving. I'm in no position to discuss the laws of my own country, let alone the 50 states of yours, but that might mean that if the man is unable to leave with the kids (because she would just see an adultery-friendly judge and get them returned) he would have to stay until custody was determined by law.

My wife and I owe our marital recovery to Dr. Harley. Having said that, on D-Day I asked my wife to either end the affair or leave the home. She left. I simply had to set that limit.

I did my Plan A from a distance, and it worked. Keep in mind we have children and we're married for nearly 20 years and were first loves. Though the love had died over the last five years of marriage (on her part), it was still there deep down, as she realized when the fantasy bubble popped. In a younger marriage with no children there may not be the same compelling reason to recover.

Still, I believe that setting limits creates important accountability. Secondly, letting the wayward spouse make the conscious choice to leave the home if he or she refuses to end the affair puts the onus completely on them. I don't think kicking out the spouse is lovebuster. I do think that not setting limits and looking like a weak enabler is. Women look for leadership and strength in their men.

Though the spouse has been asked to leave, the betrayed husband can still remain in Plan A, showing a deep care and love for the wayward, and constantly reminding them that 'a house is not home' without them, and that the betrayed spouse longs for the day that she will end her affair and return to the loving arms of her husband.

I have often heard that WW should be asked not to conduct their affair from the marital home. That doesn't mean asking them to move out -- but simply to have some respect and not make phone calls or ever have their affair partner in the marital home.

I suppose that asking them to take their affair out of the home might be viewed as asking the WW to move - but I don't think that was the intent.

But I do also agree that the BH SHOULD ask the WW to move out if it is his intention to file and keep the children and house.

But this thread stems from a specific case, that of abccba, where a BH told his wife to leave because he discovered that she was still in contact after D Day and exposure. He told her to move out and she moved out. He then wrote to Dr H who said that telling her to leave was probably a mistake, and that he should ask her to move back in. Please, everyone, listen to the link posted by Brainy, with his email answered on the radio show this week.

This is not a hypothetical case where a BH might say something like "do not conduct your affair in our home", nor a case where the BH has given up and wants to file for divorce, but a case where a BH wants to work Plan A and try to recover the marriage when the affair ends (speeded up, it is hoped, by exposure). In his specific case, and in cases like that where the BH wants to do Plan A, Dr Harley said that telling her to leave is a mistake.

We might not like it, and we might find the whole idea of living with a cheating wife incredible, but for the man who wants to outlast the affair and win his wife back, who wants to use Plan A and who asks for MB advice on Plan A, Dr Harley's advice is not to kick out the cheating wife in Plan A.

If you plan to recover, you definitely do not want to do anything that will come back to haunt you.

My wife and I are now almost three years out from DDay, and what has persisted from the initial first days are those things that I did that my wife perceived as proof that I really cared about her even though she had done this terrible thing to me. She really remembers those expressions of love. It has formed the foundation for our recovered marriage. So it is obvious to me that if you want to have any hope or recovering, you had better show your wife consideration from the beginning. This is one of those times when our instinct to strike out is the wrong thing to follow.

Did you listen to the clip with Dr. Harley's advice?

Here is the clip where Dr. Harley advised abccba.
Radio Clip of abccba's question

I just listened to it. The advice seems to contradict some of the advice often given here for men not to leave their homes insofar as Dr. Harley suggested on the program that the betrayed husband leave and the wayward wife stay.

All I can say is if my wife were having an affair, there is no way in hell I would leave so that her affair partner could slide right in, sleep in my bed with my wife, and be around my kids. Not happening.

I don't agree that the wayward spouse is being "punished" as was said on the radio program by being asked to leave. It would be HER choice to end the affair or leave. Since it's a choice, it's not a punishment. However, if the betrayed spouse is asked to leave, then it is a punishment. Of course, Dr. Harley, is saying that the wayward spouse feels like she is being punished, and so that hurts Plan A efforts. He's not saying the spouse is thinking right. I get that. Nonetheless, I personally, as a betrayed spouse, would not make the choice to leave. But I would insist that she does.

I guess, in the final analysis, my Plan A efforts have their limits.

I don't see how. The advice to not leave is intended for men whose wives try to kick them out. That is a very common occurrence. That is very different from a man who decides he needs to go into Plan B and can't get his wife to move out. Sometimes he has to leave for his own mental health. Dr Harley is just saying "don't kick her out."

On the post I wrote titled "Men, do not leave your homes" I included this: here

Great discussion! Here is my opinion on the subject:

Since most men I've counseled are more emotionally and physically resilient than women to the extreme stress that being the victim of an affair creates, I encourage men to fight for their marriage much longer than I would encourage women. What that means is that they are to try to remain in Plan A as long as possible, avoiding Love Busters, and doing what they can to meet her emotional needs. They do that while still living together.

If the husband gets to a point where he cannot take the stress any longer, and must go into plan B, I encourage him to leave the home rather than kicking her out. This strategy is designed to demonstrate his care for her even under the adverse conditions of her betrayal. Since most affairs die a natural death soon after exposure, when she decides to give her marriage a chance to succeed, she remembers his thoughtfulness at a time that he could have been vengeful.

Granted, everything in a husband would encourage him to do the opposite. He wants to punish her for what she did, and let her stew in her own juices. But upon returning, which commonly happens even when a husband acts with vengeance (affairs almost always die a natural death even when the husband acts like a jerk), she will remember the vengeful acts far into the future, making a full recovery much more difficult.

When an unfaithful wife tells a husband to leave, I encourage him to stay as long as he can tolerate the stress. If she decides to leave on her own, I encourage him to let her go. The issue at hand is about kicking her out versus not kicking her out and I strongly recommend not kicking her out.

There are successful accounts of marriages recovering after a husband kicks his wife out, but my opinion is that it is a very risky move. The affair must go so badly that she returns home because she has no other choice. In most marriages, however, women do have choices. When the affair is over, is she drawn to the husband who cared enough about her to let her stay in her own home, or the husband who threw her out on the street? The idea that by letting her stay in the home he is not acting like a man, and she will disrespect him for it, may be true for some women. But the majority would see it as an act of kindness, something they need in their marriage to a man.

I'd be happy to discuss this issue further with anyone who writes me at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

Thank you so much for the clarification, Dr. Harley!

Thank you, Dr. Harley, for your response.

An additional comment: When children are involved, a husband should consult with an attorney before he leaves to avoid the impression that he's abandoning the children. A legal visitation schedule should be arranged before he leaves. But if he feels that leaving the children would subject them to abuse or other forms of hardship, he should try to gain custody. If that's not possible, I would advise him to stick it out a while longer, all the while being in contact with a therapist who can help him with the depression he will be experiencing. Antidepressant medication would certainly be in order.

Dr. Harley