Hello everyone, thank you in advance for your help, this is my first time posting on this board. My wife, MrsLasVegas, has also joined this forum and is following this thread.

My wife and I are reading Surviving an Affair and have gotten a lot of good information from it. We have made it to chapter 12 so far and we are starting to hit some bumps, although we've made progress as well.

The main issue we are having relates to the list my wife made of her top 5 emotional needs. #1 happens to be recreational companionship. She has been cycling rigorously for about 4 months now and can now ride 70 miles in a single session - really impressive to me

My wife has a much higher than typical need for very strenuous physical activity. We're talking several hours of intense cardio workout at least a couple times per week. If she doesn't get this amount of activity she starts to feel depressed and withdrawn and this feeling progresses until she gets the exercise she needs. She tells me exercise helps her "get the crazy out." And we have found that it truly does, she comes back from exercise balanced and happy, completely improved on an emotional level.

We have a small business and we work together every day, I work full time M-F and she works part time M-F. She spends some of her free time cycling during the week. She had been riding with a male cycling coach for the past couple months to get her ready for a century (100 mile organized ride).

I feel that her cycling coach was able to meet her #1 emotional need very easily and there soon developed a friendship and emotional attachment which was edging very close to an emotional affair, which she has since broken off 100%, willingly, in accordance with the book.

I am not nearly as physically active as my wife. I have been jogging / walking every day for the past 2-3 months and that is going well. I also ride with her and can do about 25 miles, although at a much slower pace than my wife. I am not in terrible shape and she does find me attractive. My physique in certainly improving rapidly.

The way I read the book I feel like I should (and I am willing to try) to meet this emotional need by becoming her cycling companion. However, the truth is I will never have the internal drive for this strenuous activity that she does, and she knows that. I don't think she really wants me to fill this role because she knows that I'm not 100% into it like she is.

My wife would like to keep riding a couple times during the week and spend the weekends doing recreational activities that we both enjoy. I fully support her cycling and think it is a great outlet for her. I think that she will be able to cycle during the week and get a lot of enjoyment out of it, even if I am not there with her. And I personally have no problem with her riding by herself, I just fear that it could pave the way for another relationship down the road.

My concern, is that while she may enjoy cycling alone, she prefers to ride with someone, and that when she does ride with someone, a huge emotional need is met, which is part of the reason a bond was formed so quickly with her coach. Behind me cycling truly is the thing that makes her happiest right now.

She has expressed interest in riding with groups of people, which means other men / women. There are some women-only groups, but very hard to find and harder to be compatible with.

We're discussed the issue to death and haven't come up with a good solution. The idea that we should find recreational activities that we can do together means she would have to give up the very top most enjoyable activity in her life right now - and I don't want to be the reason for her to give that up.

I am fully willing to change my work schedule and try to become as active as she is on the bike, but I think we both know that I'll never be able to keep up and that my heart won't be fully in it.

Right now her perspective is that the book is to rigid on this issue, that she should not have to give up cycling (or other strenuous physical activity) in favor of something that we can both do. I tend to agree with her on this, but I fear that by ignoring this and doing her most favorite activity in the world alone, that I am not meeting an extremely important emotional need and we'll have a harder time getting back on-track.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, stories, perspective on this.

Rob

Welcome, Mr. Vegas!

Did your wife write a No Contact Letter to the coach? Did you mail it?

Have all forms of communication been changed (Facebook, cell phone, etc)?

Welcome to MB.

Is your wife having an affair with her cycling coach?

Dr. Harley is very clear that even the slightest deviation from his Program can result in failure.

You need to find activities you both enjoy because that is where the highest amount of love bank units are deposited. She wants others to be with her during her most enjoyable time (cycling) and they will be making the deposits, not you.

In marriage, we are together and meeting each others needs.

We have seen several affairs on this forum from people jogging, cycling, etc together.

Since you both are reading SAA together, i presume that one of you had a recent previous affair and it seems like it was your wife that had it.

Tell the board how that occurred and ended and the EP.s that were put in place.

It doesn't seem as if she was adhering to the most obvious glaring one, about not having any OS friendships due to her continued contact with her male cycling partner.

The POJA states that she should not go cycling at all if you are not Enthusiastically in agreement with her doing so, especially with OS riders.

Her resentment for not being able to do so is Type B resentment, which is less volatile and harmful than Type A resentment, which you most likely would have if she partakes in that activity regardless of your feelings.

You need to put her cycling on hold until the two of you POJA an enthusiastic solution or alternative.

LTL

Hello and welcome to MB.

Please tell us how did you find out about the affair? Did your wife come to tell you first, or did you notice and bring it up to her?

Good for both of you for approaching this head on. You will find out that by working this program together, the two of you will have a more passionate marriage than ever before.

Has your wife sent her coach a NC letter? What precautions have the two of you put into place so that she will never see this person again?

Prior to purchasing the book, I had used online resources on this site and others to figure out how to handle it. These resources were not as thorough as the book. A letter was emailed, I did read this letter and was satisfied with it, however, it wasn't as solid as Dr. Harley's letter. My wife wishes she had read Dr. Harley's letter example before sending her letter because she would have used something closer to that.

Facebook is complicated, closing her account is not an option, at least neither one of us can see a completely Facebook free life. Also, she manages our company Facebook profile, which requires her to have a personal account. We did the best we could do, we blocked the coach.

Same thing goes for the phone number, instead of changing the number we blocked his. We don't think him trying to contact her and vice versa is a major concern. Although, I'm sure you all may have a different opinion on this.

We've deleted all texts, contacts, and also she volunteered something that I hadn't fully understood, she uninstalled and stopped using an app on her phone that allows him to track her ride progress. Not live mind you, just to see where and how far/fast the ride was.

I am happy with the break of contact. I feel she is sincere about the no contact and understands it isn't good for our marriage.

[/quote]
Welcome to MB.

Is your wife having an affair with her cycling coach?[/quote]

No, there is no current affair. A couple weeks ago there was what you might call an emotional affair, or maybe not. But whatever it was has been ended.

I should mention that she is following this thread and will probably want to respond to questions as well. Please feel free to ask questions of MrsLasVegas.

I hope you all can understand that this is not a me vs. her thing, we are both seeking the advice of this forum for your help and thoughts.

I may ask my wife to answer your question more thoroughly, but the cycling coach existed prior to us starting on this book. She disclosed the friendship to me, during discussion she revealed an emotional attachment. We then agreed for her to break things off, and finally we started reading the book.

So that's the general order in which things occurred.

Welcome to MB. My advice is to first, answer the questions that others here have asked about the end of your wife's affair with the coach. If you have no evidence that contact between them by any and all means has ceased completely, then it is likely that the affair is continuing in some way. Contact between them might explain your wife's drive to continue cycling at a high level that leaves you out.

To deal with the issue of your wife's passion for this sport, I looked for an answer from Dr Harley, founder of the Marriage Builders' programme. People like me who have done the online accountability course have access to Dr Harley's private forum here, and we can see questions from other posters on the online course, and the answers from Dr Harley. Here is what he said to a poster in a similar situation. Her H had an affair while participating in his sport, and he was still determined to train in that sport at a high level. The sport was not one in which his wife could gain anything like his prowess, so that left a lot of time in which he trained at his activity alone, to the detriment of their marriage.

Here is Dr H's advice:

From this it follows that you should not focus on training yourself up to your wife's level of cycling, which as you said, you are not likely to reach. The answer is that, in the interest of your marriage, she needs to give up cycling.

You said something in your first post to the effect that cycling is an emotional need for her. To describe it as such is to misunderstand the concept of "emotional needs". ENs are not essential needs without which we would wither, but things that a partner does that cause us to fall in love, and stay in love, with them.

Your wife's "need" for cycling is not an emotional need in the marital sense - cycling does not make her fall in love with you. The companionship that she enjoyed with her coach is the important factor; it was the companionship when she was doing this enjoyable activity that made her fall in love with him. Your wife needs to find a different activity that you can enjoy together, and the companionship involved in doing it together will maintain your love for each other - and the corollary of that is that neither of you should ever carry out recreational activities with other people of the opposite sex.

Your wife's "need" for cycling sounds comparable to an addiction, but it is not an emotional need.

Another post to the same spouse as above, on the same issue:

Thank you for your perspective and the quote you provided. I think I want to come back to some of your other questions a little later, but regarding cycling I think I need to clarify something.

Cycling itself isn't the problem.

If it's not cycling it'll be marathons, triathlons, decathlons, you name it. So when you suggest she needs to give up cycling, you're really saying she needs to give up all forms of strenuous physical recreation. This is something that she needs in order to keep herself balanced and centered. Like I mentioned before, this exercise is something she needs, it can't just be switched off in favor of something less physical with me, long walks for example.

I agree with you that the cycling itself isn't an emotional need, it's just that the admiration and encouragement needs are met most effectively during this sort of activity.

I want to point out that my answers were not "my perspective", but the answers given to an identical problem by Dr Harley, whose advice we strive to post on this forum. You are posting on the MB forum, which implies that you want advice that is as close as possible to the advice that Dr Harley would give if you wrote to him directly.

Well, there it is. There is no other MB advice available to you. What I quoted above is it.

In answer to the point about marathons, triathlons etc:

You are not seeing the wood for the trees by pointing out that the issue is not cycling. Dr Harley's answer covered any of the activities that you say your wife would substitute for cycling.

Your wife should not do ANY recreational activity that she cannot do with you. She should not replace cycling with anything that has the same detrimental effect on your recreational time and thus on your marriage.

You and your wife need to find a recreational activity that you can do together, that allows you to focus on each other. You should only do recreational activities together and you should never, ever do them with other people of the opposite sex.

It does not matter what activity you substitute for cycling; the advice from Dr H is the same. There really isn't anything to challenge or disagree with, if you want to save your marriage.

You need to be much more creative about this than you are being at present.

Dr Harley's son Steve, who runs the telephone coaching service here, is a keen triathlete. However, her does not train for the events with other people; he trains with his wife. But while she cannot run long distance, she can and does cycle beside him while he runs. They are determined to protect their marriage and so they have sought out creative ways for them both to keep fit doing things they enjoy while being alone together.

If your wife took up running, you would probably be able to cycle at her running speed and distance.

If you and your wife want to save your marriage and avoid another affair, you need to sit down and brainstorm solutions to her exercise desires and your physical interests and limitations. Until you can come up with a solution that allows you to exercise together, she should not exercise alone out of the house.

She can buy a skipping rope and skip for an hour, and do press-ups etc, at home in your garden or basement, and you can do similar things at your level right alongside her, until you find something that you can do out of the home.

Which is precisely why she should not train with another man, even with a professional coach. A huge number of affairs take place between coaches and their clients. Personal training in all its forms is a breeding ground for affairs.

I was given four free personal training sessions when I took out gym membership this year. They are worth a lot of money and would have helped my training, but I declined to take them because I could not fit in with the times of the one female personal trainer who was available. There are lots of perfectly nice young men that were available - young enough to be my son, so that should have made the boundaries clear, shouldn't it? - but this is personal training, where these lycra-clad men would be showing me their bodies, and watching and even touching mine as it firmed up and slimmed down (one would hope). I declined the free offer.

There was no chance of my training with a man, after being a member of MB. In fact, I do not go to the gym at all, except for one women-only session per week, when men are banned from the room. I go to girly classes like Zumba, Legs, Bums and Tums and aerobics, where the entire class is female and the trainer is also female. The gym is at my workplace, so I can fit in classes during a slightly long lunch break. I then make sure to get at least 15 hours' per week RC time with my H, walking, going on day trips in the car, and going to theatres, cinema, museums and art galleries and then for a meal or drink where we can talk about the activities. The cinema etc does not count for UA time, but the talking afterwards does.

I tried a Mixed Martial Arts class only once, and the male instructor demonstrated some of the holds using both men and women from the group. I left early and never went back.

After marriage, the only time that lycra and the opposite sex should mix is with your spouse. The mixture is too combustable to be tried with other OS people.

Hello, everyone, this is the wife, sorry I'm so late. Thanks so much for all the feedback so far!

Okay, let me just jump in to answer some questions a little more in detail.

In terms of my coach:
We did create a very quick bond that formed into a friendship and perhaps given enough time it may have turned into an emotional and/or physical affair. I did enjoy the company cycling but he reminded me more of a brother than lover and there were clear boundaries that I set with him from the get-go. In any event though, I did break all contact, wrote him the letter, deleted texts, and all other steps that were outlined in the book. That was actually done prior to us beginning the program so we already had a good foundation in getting our marriage back on track once we dove into the book.

I fully take responsibility for the male coach. It was supposed to be a girls cycling group, but it just did not work out that way. Continuing with coaching is on me and I own that mistake. But, even without a coach, I would have continued to cycle to meet the physical endurance need that I crave.

In terms of cycling ... it's more than just cycling:
In addition to cycling, I practice Ashtanga which is an incredibly strenuous form of yoga. I generally do a ~2 hour practice 2-3 days a week (at home) as well as try to get in roughly 100 miles a week on the bike. This is the minimum amount of exercise that I need to be happy. Prior to cycling I was trail running 8-10 miles several days a week, prior to that I'd spend 3 hours at the gym 4 days a week, prior to that I was an awful, moody wife.

If I do not have these physical outlets I become withdrawn, moody and generally not a great person to be around. We have discovered over the years, though much trial and error, that the more strenuous exercise that I get, the happier I am, the more patient I am, the more enjoyable I am to be around. Our life is better when I get that massive amount of exercise.

I try to work in this exercise during the week as to maximize the "us" time we have available on the weekends. My H and I own a small company and I only work PT, so I have time during the week to "get the crazy out" so during the weekends we can spend quality time together doing the things we love to do together - sightseeing, day trips, lunches out with shopping, museums, parks, gardens, etc. There is no shortage of quality "us" time. The weekends are ours and we are and have always been committed to that.

I fully understand what the program asks of me and I actually loved the response of someone who mentioned the triathlon training that his wife does with him. I think that is sort of what we are looking for here. I want and need to continue with endurance athletics. I knew when I married my husband he was not into that and it was not a deal breaker for me; he has so many incredible attributes that I value and love that it not was not a big deal for him not to join me in that. But we have also always worked this endurance need of mine into our lives and now we have book telling me I have to stop. I'm not resistant to that, I get it and I agree with that concept, but I'm fearful of how our marriage will look if I don't get all the exercise that I need. It has not worked out well in the past.

Okay, other things I want to address as I re-read some comments:
I am totally on board with the no OS friends. No big deal, I enthusiastically agree and it has never been an issue for us. The coach thing was a one off as it was suppose to be a girls cycling group. In terms of group riding, I'm fine not seeking out another group to ride with. I do hope at some point I'll find a woman as nuts as me who wants to spend 5+ hours on the bike to chat with, but again I'm super happy doing it solo as I have in the past.

Please let me know if you have any more questions for me/us. This has been really helpful so far. Thanks!!

Welcome to MB, and thank you for posting.

Your husband posted here because he was unhappy with the effect that your exercise pattern is having on your marriage. You have posted here to say why you need to exercise in the form and to the extent that you do. in doing so, you haven't addressed your H's concerns for the marriage at all. Your post was all about your needs.

Do you want your H to be happy in his marriage to you? If so, what do you intend to do about the source of his unhappiness?

Question: Does the cycling even count as a recreational activity? If it's done on her own time and doesn't take away from our time together (I'm at work), and she does it alone, then does it simply count as exercise?

Thank you again for helping us understand this issue.

The book didn't just intrude into your lives unasked. Your H was looking for a solution to his unhappiness following your emotional affair. The book has a solution to the problem, one that is focused on encouraging you to find ways to make both of you happy. The book encourages you never to be the source of each other's unhappiness.

You can blame your disquiet on the "book telling me I have to stop", but the problem is not the book. The problem is your exercise choices. Those choices are making your H unhappy.

You can ignore the book, but do you care about making your H happy? Do you have suggestions of your own to make this happen? Do you think your H should learn to quell his unhappiness under the threat that, if you give up the kind of exercise you are doing now, you will make his life miserable?

You probably did not mean it to sound this way, but there is a very unpleasant implied threat embedded in your post; "let me have my way on this and be grateful for the time we do spend together, because if you make me give up endurance exercise I will make your life hell, and you will rue the day".

You need to think in terms of win-win solutions to this problem, not win-lose ones. Your marriage is not a zero-sum game.

Exercise is a recreational activity for most people. The only exception is if it is done through gritted teeth, when you hate it but need to do it. If you enjoy it then it is an RA.

There is nothing wrong with RAs being done alone (without the spouse), but they should not be done with members of the OS, they should be done only as long as UA time is met (Undivided Attention time, of at least 15 hours per week - not spent watching television or cinema, and - apart from Sexual Fulfilment - done outside of the home - although please do SF outside the home too, if you like that and can get away with it...weekends away at nice hotels are great...) and the individual activity should only be done with the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses.

If one spouse does not like the other shooting animals, for example, or if one spouse is reminded of the affair every time the other plays golf, then that activity cannot be enthusiastically agreed upon and should be abandoned, in the interest of the marriage - even if all the other conditions (UA time, no OS friends) are met.

It's obvious that cycling and endurance is RA for your wife. She enjoys it very much. She does it far beyond any simple need for a healthy lifestyle.

In the UK where I live, the National Health Service recommends 2.5 hours per week of moderate intensity exercise, or 75 minutes of vigorous activity per week, with the activity spread out across the week, avoiding being completely sedentary on any day. I imagine the US guidelines are similar.

Your wife is doing far, far more than the recommended guidelines, and more than even fitness enthusiasts do. She is not doing this purely for her health - because she knows she ought to. She is doing it from passion, which is fine, as long as it does not damage her marriage - which it is doing, otherwise you wouldn't have posted as you did.

Apologies if I missed it, but what have health professionals made of this need for such extreme physical activity to balance mood? I am an athlete too but it sounds like you are medicating with it. How do you expect to cope with it and your marriage ad you age?

Hi MR and Mrs lasvegas. Welcome to Marriage Builders. I have read this thread and think you are getting some great posts from sugarcane. MrsLV, I read your post about your activities and my question would be: how do those activities complement your marriage?

Or in the event that you cannot exercise in that way for any other reason?

Exercise often leads to injury. My H has bad knees from his soccer-playing days, and this limits the exercise he can do - very little running, which he used to love, and no more football, which is disappointing.

What would your marriage be like if you sustained an injury and had to give up endurance? Your post implies that your marriage would fail. If that's the case, you're in serious trouble.

A great marriage would more than make up for the loss of extreme exercise. A great marriage is all any of us needs, really.

I think you need to do what this programme encourages us to do: to take a look at your whole marriage. You need to change it, and not simply deal with one specific problem. This is true when the problem is as big as an affair, and just as true for the problem of mismatched RAs.

Sorry if we're not being as quick as you all when replying to your posts. We're posting through our work day, and we also may need to take some time between posts to think about the responses you're giving us.

The guidelines of 75 min twice a week is way too low. However, the amount of exercise the wife is doing her is both obsessive and an addiction. If something is a requirement to make one happy, then they are dependent on that and it is an addiction. And if it interferes with one's life, so that they pursue the object despite negative consequences, then that is not a good thing. And YOU CHOOSE to be moody and unhappy. I fully understand about training. I play indoor soccer twice a week, compete in the Highland Games, train for the Games, and I engage in strength training at the gym. However, if it made my wife unhappy or took away from our marriage, I would negotiate until we were both happy.


Sugar cane, I have never in my life seen a male trainer wearing lycra at a gym and I have been to A LOT of gyms. They would get pointed and laughed out of the gym and a client certainly wouldn't take him seriously.

Did I say 75 mins twice a week? That's not my memory of what I wrote�

As for lycra - I haven't looked that closely, but some of the men seem to wear tight tops - like baselayers- and leggings, with shorts over the leggings. Maybe they are not lycra.

Thanks for the corrections, kilted. Maybe this couple should discard everything I said.

In America, the men wear loose shorts and t-shirts to gyms.

In America, the men wear loose shorts and t-shirts to gyms.

This will not help your marriage either because it is a lifestyle where someone will be allowed to meet needs that only your spouse should be allowed to meet. It does not matter that it would be a female rather than a man.

MB is about building an "integrated" lifestyle.

That is the entire point of spending recreational time together...so your MOST enjoyable moments in life are spent TOGETHER

The goal in the MB marriage is be in love with each other. For that to occur, a couple should spend a minimum of 15 hours per week together of UA time, which should be the most enjoyable time of your week.

Since the goal of MB is to have a marriage in which both spouses are in love with each other, each of you needs to be the favorite recreational partner of the other.

As a matter of fact, Dr. Harley recommends certain favorite activities of just one spouse should be abandoned until your spouse is your favorite RC partner. And even then, if the recreational activity is something you enjoy even more than the time with your spouse, Dr. Harley recommends dropping it altogether because of the contrast effect.

He also says that many people become addicted to their sport or activity of choice and have a hard time giving it up, often feeling depressed for a while.

But the goal is to find something you both enjoy doing. It takes a lot of creative brainstorming and intelligence to find solutions.

If I could withdraw my post about the guidelines I would. It has become a completely unnecessary threadjack.

I used the official UK guidelines because it seemed reasonable to use a measure that has been generally agreed upon and sanctioned (in this country). I could promote my own exercise level as being the most beneficial, but there is no science behind what I do, and no consensus. I could alternatively substitute something that I've read elsewhere, but it seemed fair to use a measure that has health service backing - not that I agree with them on everything - fatty foods and carbs, for example.

Shall we discuss our own views on the necessary level of exercise? Would that help this couple, or change the advice they have received so far?

??????

Hi, I just got off a conference call. Give me a minute to read and respond.
I've not abandoned you all. :-)

Thanks!

Nope, Sugar, you have great advice. I just laughed thinking about a guy wearing lycra. Occasionally one might wear a compression tops but almost always (like Melody said) they wear shorts and tank tops. No leggings... Only women wear leggings.

SugarCane your posts are EXCELLENT and it is clear that you put a lot of time and thought into trying to help this couple understand MB concepts.

Cheers, pf!

What are the other four top ENs?

Welcome to MB

Welcome MR/MRS Las vEgas!

I have read thru your thread. I too am at work and would like to respond or give my 2 cents. I have been in a struggle over this exact situation with my husband for 4 years now. In fact the Dr Harley responses already posted on this thread are from my direct questions to him in the private section. It was my husband who would insist he "needed" so much strenuous exercise per week or he was not OK. Anyway, I'd like to write back later when I'm not at work.

Mr/MrLasVegas,

Although you may not be deeply in an emotional affair, the OM/coach may be or may be a serial cheater who uses his job/hobby to pick up women.

Does OM have a history of seducing women he claims to be "helping", and has the OMs wife been spoken with, she might be able to fill you in on OMs history.

The OM needs to be chased off.

God Bless
Gamma

Thank you Graceful, I'm glad that you found this thread. I would be very interested to hear any details about your experience that you can share.

For others who we still owe a response, we're taking a little time to process our thoughts but will get back soon for sure.

Yes, thank you! I would really appreciate your insight on how you resolved this within your own marriage. Thank you so much!

Hi, thanks for your thoughts, Gamma.

I honestly don't know if uses his job to pick up women. He is single and I could have been one of his many pursuits; I just don't know him or his history well enough to answer that with any conviction, I suppose.

In any case, he has been chased off/contact broken and all of that. :-)

Hi!

I was having trouble picking between Admiration and Recreation for my number 1, so I put those as one and two with neither actually being labeled as 1 or 2, as I can't decide which is more important.
#3 Financial
#4 Conversation
#5 Affection
#6 Sex (bonus, because I felt this needed to be on the list too)

You do realise that the EN is called "Recreational Companionship", don't you - not "Recreation"?

Do you understand what is meant by Dr H's concept of ENs? These are not merely things that make you happy, but things that make you fall in love with somebody else. "Recreation" done by yourself can't make you fall in love with somebody else, but "recreational companionship" can.

Your passion for several hours a week of intense physical activity is not a marital EN - it does not make you fall in love with your husband.

If you are miserable that your H is unable to do your sport with you, then perhaps RC should be at the top of your list - but not otherwise. Not if you are perfectly happy to do it alone.

Yes, I totally agree, Pokerface, SugarCane has given me lots to consider.

SugarCane, you have given me so much to think about and consider and I think I need more time to chat with my H on what you've said. Thank you so much for your time and insight. Please keep it coming if you have anymore thoughts. :-)

Someone had also mentioned an addiction to exercise, which is incredibly interesting as well. I think that this thread gives us some discussion points for when we get home, which ultimately is what we were looking for. We have talked this issue to death and needed a new perspective, which is what you were all so generously gave. Thank you!

Any other insights are, of course, welcome, though. Keep 'em coming!

I think the Mrs. is abbreviating her definitions here, but it's always good to underscore the definitions of the program since we are both new to it.

Well�I did consider that, but I went ahead and posted because I could see that there was a misunderstanding. It seems to me that if RC were really her top EN, she would want to spend all the time she could with you. If you were unable to cycle or run with her, she would be happy to find something - anything - else, as long as she could be with you. The thing she wanted to do would be much less important than doing something with you.

She clearly has a need for "recreation"; it is her top need to feel happy in herself - but is it a need in order for her to fall and stay in love with you? It does not seem so to me. If she is essentially telling you - as she did here today - that if she can't do her solo activities for several hours a week she will be miserable in her marriage, then those activities are not marital ENs. Her need for "recreation" is not a need for "recreational companionship". If there were a need for the "companionship" side of RC then she'd be desperate for time spent with you.

It's simple, really, as long as you are using the correct definition of an EN. An EN is not a life-support need like air or water. It's about falling and staying in love.

Have you both read the basic concepts, in the articles section on this site?

You said you'd read "the book"; was this His Needs her Needs? That gives a very clear definition of what is meant by the concept "ENs". Please re-read that section.

I agree that it is an addiction of sorts. When did you start this intense exercise regimen? Do you two plan to have children?

I'm all for exercising but what has been described is extreme. A person can still get an intense workout without it taking hours and hours out of the day.

I was using condensed variations of the words for the sake of timeliness, but you made an interesting point. Maybe I don't need RC from my H. It does not make me miserable that he does not ride with me. No love units are lost when I set out on my own. I am totally happy cycling and practicing yoga by myself which is why I try to schedule it during the week when he is working so we have time to spend together on the weekends.

So maybe I've been approaching this incorrectly, so please help me out on this. Maybe the guidepost that I need to use for my EM's (which btw seem to change every few days. I'm having a hard time nailing down a firm list) should be "does this make me fall in love with you?" I was approaching it from a perspective of "what could I not live without" and recreation/exercise is at the top of my list, but perhaps not RC as it is designed to be interpreted and applied.

Now I'm so confused ...

I totally agree. Not much to add, she has it covered.

Thanks Sugar!!!

I've always been incredibly active. I've rock climbed since before I could walk. Summer vacations were spent hiking and backpacking for weeks at a time. Spring Breaks involved camping and fishing. In high school, I was gymnast, played softball and my dad and I used to go on long trail runs on the weekends. Not being incredibly active is so foreign to me that I have no idea how that even looks and how that applies to my life if were to disappear. It is incredibly scary for me to try to imagine my life without all of that activity, but even worse imagining it without my husband. So that is why I feel so confused about all of this.

In terms of children, we made the decision early on in our marriage to not have kids. We did not want to share our time with anyone else, including our future kids.

So it seems like you need to figure out how to make your H your favorite RC and get 15-20 hours of UA.

You didn't answer my question about having read the definitions of the concept of ENs, and the ENs themselves.

Here is what Dr Harley says about RC:

The need for recreational companionship combines two needs into one. First, there is the need to be engaged in recreational activities and second, the need to have a companion. To determine if you have this need, first ask yourself if you have a craving for certain recreational activities. Then ask yourself if the activities require a companion for fulfillment. If the answer is yes to both questions, include recreational companionship on your list of emotional needs.

Full article here

Here is what Dr H says about ENs in marriage.

He says that there are probably thousands of ENs, but the ones he deals with are the most important ones; those that, when met, make you fall in love with the person that meets them.

The most important ENs are the needs that spouses meet for each other. They are not "needs" in an absolute sense, but needs for falling in love.

What is an emotional need? It is a craving that, when satisfied, leaves you with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and, when unsatisfied, leaves you with a feeling of unhappiness and frustration. There are probably thousands of emotional needs. A need for birthday parties, peanut butter sandwiches, Monday Night Football, I could go on and on. Some people have some of those needs while others have different needs. If you feel good doing something, or if someone does something for you that makes you feel good, an emotional need has been met.

But not all emotional needs are created equally. When some are met, you may only feel comfortable--they make small Love Bank deposits. There are others, however, that can make you feel downright euphoric. In fact they make you so happy that you're likely to fall in love with the person that meets them. I call those our most important emotional needs because they make the largest Love Bank deposits of all. And those are the very same emotional needs that a husband and wife expect each other to meet in marriage.

By now you can probably see where I'm headed. My first goal when counseling a couple is to help them identify their most important emotional needs. Once those needs are identified, I help them learn to meet those needs for each other. I want them to make the largest deposits possible into each other's Love Banks. If all goes well, they begin making those large deposits and eventually they are in love with each other.

When I first began using this approach to saving marriages, I didn't know what made people the happiest in marriage -- I didn't know what emotional needs would be the most important. So I had to ask hundreds of men and women that question, "What could your spouse do for you that would make you the happiest?"

Full article here

I don't think that UA is a problem for us. We are actually getting to that chapter tonight, so maybe it is, I'll keep you posted. ;-)

We generally spend all weekend doing fun things together. Last weekend, in addition to reading the book together we spent several hours at a local garden getting inspiration for our own yard. Other weekends, we venture to the next town over for lunch, chatting and walking in the park. I feel like our UA time is good and we have added in more UA time each night once he comes home from work. Less TV, more chatting, which I think has helped both of us immensely.

We've agreed that more activities would be better and are expanding on what we generally do together. We've talked about taking up tennis again and maybe adding in golf into our rotation of activities, as well as adding in more cultural/social events which we both enjoy, but never seek out. For me spending UA time with him is amazing and I look forward to the weekends when we can be together without the demands of work.

I'm sorry, that was an oversight. Yes, we have read the definitions and concepts and completed the worksheets to determine our EN's. We were obviously having trouble applying some of the principles which is why we reached out. Thanks for the links, it's nice to have it here to reference and refer to. That was very helpful. :-)

UA time is most effective when spent away from home on dates. UA time spent at home is very ineffective because it is sporadic and too easy to get sidetracked by hobbies and domestic responsibilities. It should be spent on dates focusing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. [of course you would meet that last need at home ]

The time should be spread out over the week in 2 to 4 hour blocks. It is suggested that you sit down on Sunday afternoon and actually schedule out your week, writing out the dates, times and agreed upon activities. The worksheet for this is in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. You can download it free on this website, but I would suggest getting the workbook because it has GREAT lessons in it along with all the worksheets. Time For Undivided Attention Worksheet

It takes 15 hoours per week to maintain romantic love and 20+ hours to create, so I would schedule your hours accordingly. It is real important to schedule this time because time that is not scheduled is too easy to blow off. Couples that don't actually schedule their time usually don't meet this goal.

And.........that is tragic because this program does not work without this step. Everything else you do will be a waste of time.

I used to race in at LEAST 2 half marathon races a month, all over the state (and neighboring states).
When my marriage was hitting rock bottom, it was my outlet to actually accomplish something (which i wasnt accomplishing in my marriage)....

My wife was not a part of this sport, except for being at the finish line...

Looking back, I wish I would have spent the time doing something together that we BOTH enjoyed and concentrated on building romantic love in our marriage instead of my "need" for strenuous exercise.

I still exercise strenuously (just ran a half marathon)....and speak with many others who have a "need" for exercise....and most complain about their spouses to me.

MrsLasVegas,

We do powerlifting/weightlifting together. We go to comps, we train together in our home gym, we have plenty of rest breaks to chat and do whatever else. We are both at completely different levels of strength and ability yet that has zero impact on our ability to interact during our sport. Cycling is one of those sports that leaves the slower cyclist in the dust, not a great compatible sport.

One of our married couple friends has a tandem bicycle. The husband loves to cycle hard while his wife is much slower and Using the tandem bicycle means he can peddle as hard as he'd like, she can keep up as she best she can, and they get to be together and chat during the slower moments.

Mr/Mrs Las Vegas,

As I stated earlier I have experienced the system where one spouse is driven towards vigorous work outs as a means to relieve stress/anxiety etc. 'from something' and the other spouse feels compelled to support the activity or forced to make this an accommodation for some 'good reason' (noble) that is supposed to benefit the relationship in a seemingly wholelistic healthful fashion.

The basic problem to this 'indirect' means of fulfilling RC needs of one spouse is it is independent behavior by the other spouse. This IB opens a whole can of worms for the marriage relationship. One spouse is receiving pleasures while the other spouse is 'hoping' to gain indirectly. In your case, these days your expectation of your investment is quickly repaid over the weekend ---so it seems to work for you for now. This set up is probably like an investment strategy which I'm sure you are used to following as you run a business. Therefore there are both 'good reasons' for Mr Las Vegas misgivings as well as his supportive or encouragement towards Mrs. Las Vegas. I'm just saying. Don't worry I'm going to incorporate MB.

As you can see I have been married many years and have lots of experience investing in this strategy as its been overlaid onto most of the years of our marriage.

So as a spouse of a very focused ambitious successful charming goal oriented guy who enjoys or has often stated he "needs" a vigorous form of exercise but also "needs" to work long hours in the 'helping' career he has chosen, here is the outcome on my emotional/physical/spiritual health and our marriage:

-priority confusion

I have felt 'less then' invisible, that I don't matter--an insidous soul robbing experience

-sacrifice is built into the relationship to keep the 'machine' going:

resentments build for both spouses

-the machine grows into a monster:

The troubles with this strategy is more and more risk is taken on to get the results or meet the IB goals.

It starts to look more and more symptomatic of an addiction lifestyle.

I'd become seriously ill at one point and my husband was lost to support me emotionally.

-Oops, the investment strategy and machine starts to crumble

Repayment for spousal sacrifice is not seen as warranted and postponed. Its a renters or freeloaders mentality at least in one area (RC) but soon the other emotional needs are farmed out.

Affairs, I don't love you, and the like...

A sense of feeling lonely within the relationship. No time for marriage.

defensive about IB and relationships that supported IB

My husbands gave his best to others and projected contempt towards me.

Only kept a small space in his life for me, huge space for IB activities



The combo #1 RC and Independent Behavior and allowing this 'combo' to dominate over a MB strategy is not as healthy as it might seem in that you don't want to let this slip by too readily as Mr Las Vegas is compelled to do. Its a really a poor short term and long term strategy.

I spoke with Steve Harley just two days ago. As he said, we are all wired for IB. He says its like a ski boat. Ski boats are made to drift and turn circles when not being steered. IB will create a habitual drift into your marriage that can be hard to recover from. I'm in a similar position as Mr Las Vegas is in currently.

There is a window opportunity while we are seemingly both on board with MB. My biggest concern right now and something SH and I discussed was constantly being in 'intentional collaboration' to remind ourselves not just to follow POJA but to follow the 4 rules of successful negotiations as POJA is simply the outcome of following the rules.

And joining your wife in a vigorous recreational activity that she developed an EA while involved may not work as it may be a huge trigger for Mr Las Vegas. Why?

I'll explain this in another post on your thread as I need to ready myself for work!

Wow, we are overwhelmed with information right now and have had a couple of days of pretty intense discussion so I'm sorry that we have seemed absent.

My cycling (and other previous activities) was a coping mechanism for me to deal with an abundance of time that I had, my H being more involved in work than our marriage and a host of other hurts from over a decade of being married. Both of our IB's lead us to the place that we are now and we see that much change is needed if we are to survive and thrive together.

We keep saying, time and again as we talk about various things, how we wished we knew about the PoJA. That would have been so remarkable in guiding us from the very beginning and avoiding the mess we've gotten into now. We are so grateful to have that now.

So, I've set cycling aside and I feel good about that. We have so many incredible plans that we are going to do together that I don't think it will be a great loss. I love the peace that I finally feel. Finally.

It's been so long since I've felt this calm, relaxed and so excited about our marriage and our life together. I feel like we are finally working for each other and not against each other. I feel like we have been given a second chance.

I can't even begin to tell you how thankful we are for this forum and this program. Your tough love, support, guidance and suggestions have really been helpful to guide our conversations to be constructive.

I know we are not out of the woods yet, but I am so hopeful right now. :-)

Thank you for this insight! A lot of that totally makes sense and there was a lot of badgering that went along with us trying to connect on the cycling issue when we were so far apart on it and my "need" was just a form of IB because my EN were not being met, so I tried to meet my own EN the only way I knew how - exercise. Having the PoJA would have made this issue so much better if we had utilized it in the beginning. So glad we have that now and the tools to negotiate will be so helpful.

I agree that getting on board with the MB program does have a very short window of time and I was resistant to parts of it, specifically regarding IB.

I'm so sorry that you are going though a similar experience, although yours seems much deeper on several levels. It is hard to have a husband that is driven in everything but your marriage and I'm grateful that my own has made changes to that end. I truly hope that everything works out well for you and your husband. It is difficult to make the mental decision to give up IB's. I fought it for a while as you feel like you are giving up part of yourself. But in the end, who better to give myself to than my husband? Many hugs to you!

Yes, exercise was my escape. Congrats on your 1/2's! I miss running sometimes. There is something special about running on a quiet empty trail early in the morning. Such quiet. :-)

Curiously, how do you and your wife deal with the time that it takes you to train for your 1/2's? Is she involved in your training? How do you structure that time so it does not become an IB? Anything you'd like to share would be great. Thanks!

I can't tell you how much it means to me to see you write this, babe. It's been a roller coaster the past couple weeks, but we're going to get off this ride in better shape than ever.

I love you.

It's you and me, babe. Still climbing. Always climbing. I can't wait to see how our marriage looks when we finally summit. I'm so excited!

I love you and am looking forward to our date tonight. :-)

Bravo to you both!! I think you will be amazed at how soon you start seeing significant improvements in your marriage if you use this approach. It would help tremendously If you could pick up the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. It has all of the worksheets and many lessons in it. We used this when we went through the MB course. They sell it cheap, $11, in the MB bookstore.

The most impactful step will be the policy of undivided attention so I would start there.

Thrilled for you both!!!

Giving up your cycling is a big step. My husband gave up his dojo karate practice in January. He'd been bullish and uncooperative for a long long time.

We continue to rebuild with lots of activities. Some activities are harder then others. What seems like an activity we can do together while enjoying one anothers' company can become trouble due to the execution.

It starts out fun but my husband has the habit of drilling down to the nitty gritty of activities he likes and becomes an "expert." This leaves me in the dust! Hence the emphasis is on negotiation to help him where he has no instinct.

I was going to say, I tried to get involved with my husband in the practice of karate. I gave it my best shot over a period of three years. I was moving up in the ranks but it was torture all the way. I was trying to like it and be a good sport. Much of my husbands actions and inactions within the dojo environment were triggers for me with good reason. I was not the priority over the sport. One of my lowest point came about a year ago when the female sensei punched me in the chest breaking my sternum.

I just read this entire thread. Wow. I hope one day to be where you to are.

This story is an inspiration...

Good luck and god bless you both. !

This has been my experience, as a competitive runner and seems to be common among endurance athletes I speak with.

Keep coming back here, listen to the radio show together, read Dr Harley's books over and over because each time you read seems something new sinks in...

Besides Lovebuster, read his new book He Wins/She wins which is a detailed account of his negotiation method (4 rules)and the PoJA!