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So I've posted here several times. I've really introspected and listened to the words of those kind enough to respond.

Now that my wife and I are beginning to work through the system, we of course had to identify each others love busters and needs.

My wife identified the love busters I am guilty of and I took it deeply to heart. I agreed that I need to change, asked for forgiveness and began to work hard on changing/eliminating them with aggression.

As soon as I expressed her love busters, I got a lecture on how I was wrong and she did not do those things.

The same cycle happened with the needs portion. It was my turn to begin so I expressed the need for rhythm in our life that is missing because of her independent behavior. I didn't tie the rhythm to the love buster because I didn't have time. The next several hours was a fairly heated argument on how that can't be a need of mine since she can't see rhythm in my life.

How on earth can I get through this if everything is wrapped around her opinion and is corrected?

I'm about ready to toss the book and leave. The resistance to everything is so deeply exhausting.

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Originally Posted by codrdave
The same cycle happened with the needs portion. It was my turn to begin so I expressed the need for rhythm in our life that is missing because of her independent behavior. I didn't tie the rhythm to the love buster because I didn't have time. The next several hours was a fairly heated argument on how that can't be a need of mine since she can't see rhythm in my life.

You need to express your complaint more clearly. She is not going to to be able to understand it this way. Even those well versed in MB would be scratching their heads about how a 'rhythm of life' could be a love buster. The love buster here is her independent behavior so stick with that.

Originally Posted by codrdave
How on earth can I get through this if everything is wrapped around her opinion and is corrected?

I'm about ready to toss the book and leave. The resistance to everything is so deeply exhausting.


Go back to your thread and add this question there. You will get much more useful help that way. Your wife's independent behavior and unwillingness to negotiate with you is a result of her withdrawal from the relationship. That is the way we women protect ourselves. You will have to first entice her back into the relationship by showing her that you can be the husband of her dreams. Then she will be in love with you and want to please you more than life itself.


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Originally Posted by codrdave
The same cycle happened with the needs portion. It was my turn to begin so I expressed the need for rhythm in our life that is missing because of her independent behavior. I didn't tie the rhythm to the love buster because I didn't have time. The next several hours was a fairly heated argument on how that can't be a need of mine since she can't see rhythm in my life.

I have no earthly idea what a "rythym" is. My suggestion would be to put aside your own program and go through the program together. Get 2 copies of Lovebusters and read 1-2 chapters a night and then follow with the lessons at the end of the chapter. Ask her to highlight things that stand out to her in pink and you highlight in your book with yellow. Exchange the books and read each others highlighted notes.

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The next several hours was a fairly heated argument on how that can't be a need of mine since she can't see rhythm in my life.

Don't fight with her anymore. Do the lessons and discuss the lessons.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You're being disrespectful when you suggest that your wife is disrupting the "rhythm" of your life. Just tell her what behaviors she engages in that bother you. Remove the value judgment. Don't imply that your preferences are more "rhythmic" or better in any way - you are just bothered by certain things she does, and you wanted her to know.

Also, don't try to create new emotional needs like a need for "rhythm." Dr. Harley's wordings are pretty carefully worded to avoid sounding disrespectful. Any married person would be bothered by independent behavior; it's not your own personal unique emotional need.

In counseling practice, Dr. Harley focuses on getting clients to meet the four intimate emotional needs:
Conversation
Affection
Recreational Companionship
Sexual Fulfillment

Frequently you'll need to get rid of love busters first before your wife will want to do those things with you. There are probably still cases where you are being disrespectful without realizing it, like here. Don't let there be any hint of a value judgment when you make a complaint - what she does is not bad or wrong; it just bothers you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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And start listening to Marriage Builders Radio DAILY


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Ways to engage in disrespectful judgments:
sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions, body language
expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
saying that something is "obvious" (in other words, you "should" realize this or "should" know it)
disrespecting your spouse's feelings instead of accepting the fact that they do feel that way

guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful

comparisons: if I had done such a horrible thing as you, I'd be doing more to make up for it

defensiveness

minimizing -- "just" -- you just say that because ... [Translation: I don't have to address your complaint.]
psychoanalyzing your spouse
explaining away your spouse's feelings or complaints

attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind


I statements may help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Women can be led pretty far into an MB marriage by their husbands without even knowing about the plan.

This gives men an advantage women don't have. If a husband isn't on board the woman has to call the whole marriage quits, while often a husband can bring his wife on board by just modelling the behaviour he wants to see.

If you eliminate your lovebusters and meet her needs she will fall in love. It's like chemically doping her! Your feelings will become just as important to her as her own.

If you are careful to not let her sacrifice for you - something we get tempted to do when in love -she will stay in love.

You should start your complaints right away but be super careful they don't take the form of lovebusters.

Avoid anything even remotely similar to:
'I am right' - disrespectful judgement/lecturing
'You need to meet my needs' - selfish demand.
'You must not do x,y or z' - selfish demand

Instead try:
'It bothers me when you do x,y or z'
'How would you feel about doing/not doing x,y or z?'

To help you distinguish between demands and requests - it's a respectful request if she has the option to say no. That doesn't mean you give up on your requirements, though.

It simply means you give her space to consider it instead of punishing her with hours of debate. Even if she seems adamant.

Sometimes just allowing someone to say no sets the groundwork for respectful negotiation.

Even the mildest of us would say no if we knew we were required to say yes or else. If every no was met with an hours-long rebuttal.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I hear what you are saying. She knows what I mean by Rhythm because she is all over the board with her actions. She has ADD and will binge on almost everything she does.

Very good advice on sticking with just saying 'independent behavior'. because, yes, that is the root cause and the effect is lack of rhythm.

Thank you SO much because this is exactly the clarity I needed. I do struggle to communicate in a way that is clear. Sometimes I nail it and other times, you get this.

However, my wife is combative with me over almost everything. It really doesn't matter what I say or what the topic is. I have read that Opposition Defiance Disorder goes hand in hand many times with ADD. I'm not diagnosing, but this has been this way from day one. It's very hard to negotiate when you know that no matter what you say it's going to be met with resistance.

And to the kind person who said I need to be the man of her dreams first, at this point, that would require for me to permanently play the role of the giver and her the taker.

I was reading about the pain you go through with the joint agreement policy at the beginning and even the thought of meeting half way on our disputes was exciting. The idea that I had to give some things up but that also meant that she would have to stop hurting me was pure joy. She was pretty angry that she had to make any adjustments at all. This is how it goes. I have been begging for negotiated agreements like this for decades. Even willing to go far beyond meeting her half way, but it seems that even the tiniest bit of give on her part was not acceptable.


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Originally Posted by codrdave
I hear what you are saying. She knows what I mean by Rhythm

What I am saying is that it doesn't matter if she knows what you mean; it is disrespectful. She probably won't be willing to hear your complaints until you learn to recognize and filter the value judgments out of what you are saying.

Did you hear what I was saying about listening to the radio show daily?

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She has ADD and will binge on almost everything she does.

Dr. Harley feels he pretty likely has ADD as well.

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Thank you SO much because this is exactly the clarity I needed. I do struggle to communicate in a way that is clear. Sometimes I nail it and other times, you get this.

It's not a matter of clarity and logic. It's a matter of emotion. Any hint of disrespect in your communication to her will cause an emotional reaction - it's a love buster!

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I have read that Opposition Defiance Disorder goes hand in hand many times with ADD.

I would imagine that any wife who is not in love with her husband will be quite oppositional. Mine certainly was!! But Dr. Harley talks about this issue in a much less disrespectful way in his article on the three states of mind in marriage, which I recommend you read and re-read.

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I'm not diagnosing,

Actually pulling out names of disorders when you talk about your spouse is what we mean when we saying "diagnosing." You might call it something different, but it's disrespectful. Any time you start digging into explaining why your spouse feels the way they do you are probably doing this. It takes your wife's feelings at less than face value and discounts them. Instead of talking as if she is right to feel bothered by you, you look for possible causes to attribute her feelings to.

What you want is a marriage where when one of you feels bothered, the other takes it very seriously and changes. You're probably going to need to go first by taking your wife's feelings very seriously.

It's not rocket science: you were disrespectful, and it bothered your wife. MOST women would feel this way. The way your wife is feeling is very normal, and you're going to need to come to terms with that and be ultra-rigorous in learning to recognize and filter the value judgments in your speech. Like any other husband who wants to have a good marriage.

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It's very hard to negotiate when you know that no matter what you say it's going to be met with resistance.

This is another example of a disrespectful comment about your wife. The fact is that the reasons for your wife's feelings and her resistance are very vague and unclear TO YOU, but that is only because you don't yet understand. Your wife is not just being disagreeable; she is reacting in a typical and predictable way to disrespect from her husband. After you've built up a long-term track record of never being disrespectful toward her, there is a good chance she will change.

Plus, you need to be looking for win-win solutions. Any solution she resists is a loss for her, so you need to remove it from the list of possible solutions. Again, her feelings toward you will change after you have built up a long-term track record of always looking for the best for her.

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And to the kind person who said I need to be the man of her dreams first, at this point, that would require for me to permanently play the role of the giver and her the taker.

No, the Giver and Taker are instincts that every person has. You need to make sure that every action you take satisfies your Giver and Taker AND her Giver and Taker. You can and should be the man of her dreams without sacrificing.

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This is how it goes. I have been begging for negotiated agreements like this for decades.

How long have you been married?

BTW, it's best to stick to one thread so we can see your whole marital situation at a glance and give better advice. And the "Other Topics" section usually doesn't get as much traffic and help as "Marriage Builders 101" or "Surviving an Affair."

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Even willing to go far beyond meeting her half way, but it seems that even the tiniest bit of give on her part was not acceptable.

Do not look for solutions that require her to sacrifice. Only win-win.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If she seems inclined to 'give' - don't let her! Not if you want an MB marriage.

Any instinct on her part to not do something should be taken seriously by you.

Every 'no' from her - should see a consideration from you of what would she need for it to become a 'yes'.

I doubt a discussion of her syndromes, your disatisfaction, and your needs make any of what you're selling any more appealing.

If she doesn't want to do it, it won't be fun for either one. Your goal is a fun marriage where two people are happy.

At the end of the day it is a marriage that has seen her subjected to swinging and porn to the point of sexual aversion. Any day she doesn't file for a D is a 'yes'.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.


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