MelodyLane thank you. I will update my copy and prepare to go into a dark Plan B.
I will come back and re read everything, there is so much here. So glad I came back and wish I had done so in 2012.

Deluded

I did not realize your girls knew about all the adultery other than seeing their father with the current gf so what I said previously may not fit but still talk to them factually.

If the girls have any notion that you have been weak you can still remedy that too. Admit you were weak. You were scared about what would happen to them and yourself if you divorced. You took your wedding vows seriously and didn't want to walk away without trying to salvage the marriage for yourself and for them. There is not bad about this. It makes you human.

And then you can tell them that you are no longer weak and know you let this go on too long. Say you're sorry (not that you were a bad person kind of sorry) and give them big hugs. You may have been weak once upon a time but you can be courageous today.

I only mentioned 'three year old' to stress how perfectly obvious it is that is wrong and you shouldn't be afraid to call a spade a spade.

A BW friend of mine has a 3yo daughter who said 'that is so wrong mummy!' After a very factual description of events.




I agree totally with the sentiment that it's not the person, but the behaviour. After all he may reform twenty years from now; possibly too late for you but not for them to recover their relationship with him.

It's just I think you've covered up for him in a very confusing way. You've said the affairs were caused by unhappiness. Then you've continued to have contact with him. This looks like someone who does not care very much about his affairs.

I think you'd be best served by not launching into further discussion, particularly apologetic ones. Your actions will make it clear how painful and unacceptable his affair is if you do Plan B strictly and go very dark.

As for a pitbull lawyer, I found one in a quiet Liverpool suburb. I googled the highest regarded in the area. Mine specialises in financial infidelity and violence, so she has no patience with negotiation nonsense. She's cost me a fortune but saved me two.

I don't really like the sound of yours. I had to file for unreasonable behaviour too but only because I had no proof of a physical affair. My lawyer said if I had that it would be no problem.

Your lawyer almost sounds as though affairs are some quaint old fashioned notion. That's a problem as normal people are horrified by affairs. Those who aren't have had them.

I'd be stunned if he didn't have secret accounts or was hiding money to finance his affairs. Is your lawyer planning on requesting his financial documents so as to track his spending and earnings?

Glad to hear you handle the finances and that you are professional capable of handling yourself financially.

Finding a pit bull might be as easy as asking your attorney for a referral to the meanest most disliked divorce attorney in town.

You might also go to the court house and ask the clerks at the counter who they would send their sister or brother to if they wanted the nastiest and best divorce attorney around.

I saw that filing for adultery in UK offers you a quicker route to divorce (you likely need this because your WH won't negotiate fairly so the quicker you get to court and get a judges decision the better). Also, I saw that you might be able to get your WH to be responsible for paying your legal fees when you file on the grounds of Adultery. That would be nice for the day he realizes he has to individually pay from his share of the marital assets for your nasty hated attorney.

In addition, in UK you CAN name the other woman/women as Co-Repsondents to the divorce petition. I don't know whether this is actually done by anyone and it seems to cause problems (you have to serve them all individually and get them to respond) but how great would it be to re-file your complaint AND name several women as co-respondents and adulterers.


As far as your kids not talking about it with you. 20-23 year olds typically go through this period of independence. It's not uncommon no matter the circumstances. It's quite likely though that this is a natural response to years of conditioning by both you and your husband that if you just cover everything up and act like all is OK, then it's OK. Your husband's abuse has understandably made you appear a mean angry bitter wife who maybe, to some degree, got what she deserved. Kids blame both parents for an unhappy home life so to them they partially think "Dad always seems so much more fun and jovial, if only mom had been nicer to him maybe he'd have been home and around more when I was growing up". Children are natural narcissists. They don't care much about how much abuse you've tolerated from husband for their benefit. That's not even on their radar. They just see you miserable, angry and bitter and then conclude that you are just 40-90% of the THEIR problem.

One idea...hopefully in the UK you have the right to depose your husband and force him to admit and document he's cheated on you for years. If your kids won't talk about it....you make a copy of it and just give it to them to read themselves, in their own time and on their own. Again, you don't need or want them to choose sides. He's their father. The only father they'll ever have. He and they can work out whatever relationship they want going forward....just not with you involved, managing it or responsible for it any longer.

In time, after you divorce...your best revenge is to live a happy productive life. If and when you children witness that AFTER the divorce you are no longer mean, angry, vindictive, sad, depressed, etc, any longer and without even having to draw attention to that fact they, as adults, will be free to conclude that maybe, just maybe it actually was your WH's fault. Especially as he continues down the miserable path of stupid young blonde girlfriends and ignoring their wants and needs. While you thrive away from the abuse, he will stagnant and likely get worse (because you aren't there anymore to manage his projected family man image anymore).

I AM very pro-marriage. There is always hope and anyone can change but in my opinion the quick protective divorce with a dark Plan B is your only shot at reconciliation. Coincidentally, it's also the path to success as a divorced person as well. Remove him from your life and see what happens.

Mr. W

Me too.

Successful womanizing adulterer without access to secret money makes for a fairly boring affair partner.

He could have set up direct deposit to go 15% to one account at one bank and 85% to your main account though it seems you'd know about that from income tax returns over the years.

On the other hand, he's always traveling for work so he's just letting the hospital foot the bill and using his corporate cards. His "affair value" isn't his bank account it's his title and prestige in the hospital. These women are merely part of the power brokerage systems among doctors. It's not about cash. The cash payoff comes later for them when they, hopefully, marry the big time doctor and become a doctor's wife themselves. Doctors work ungodly hours so running around wining and dining isn't their "game". Quick unattached sex conveniently located (in the hospital and on the business trips) is most what they want.

He could have a secret mortgage on the house or have side income that he doesn't let you know about. If you handle the finances...research it. Trust but verify.

We understand why you seem overly angry to others. You are in contact with the person who put you through a level of pain unimaginable to the uninitiated.

The cool thing about Plan B is you become stronger, happier. Someone worth listening to.

Nobody will listen to someone who hasn't cared for themself.

Thanks everyone.

He has a separate account as do I. This was set up for hid private practice originally to protect it for tax purposes. I have the password as WH showed me his diary shortly after D day and told me all his passwords were in there.
I could take that as tacit permission to access it as that permission has not been withdrawn and as far as I know he has not changed it.

I do intend to insist on a forensic accountant. I doubt he has secret accounts but then I don't really know him. At all.

However much of his correspondence still comes to the home and I still open his post before passing it on. He has never told me to stop or changed his address.

His work email passwords change every 3 months and would be impossible to hack without detection.

Indie girl I thought I was modelling grown up behaviour by still being civil and speaking with DH and including him in family things. I do see now that it has sent mixed messages to everyone. WH of course must be lapping this up. He gets to dip in and out of happy family whilst carrying on his sordid activities ( I found porn sites and a sex chat line number on his computer art the time of the last multiple D day). I am on the track of a pit bull solicitor starting with one who is representing the WH of a friend and who is being a major irritant to her and her solicitor. Must get to him before WH does.

MrW, I was advised as was Indiegirl not to bother filing on grounds of adultery because it achieves nothing. The UK is no blame , so yes I can process it within 6 months ( financial negotiations being the drag) but there is no opportunity to depose WH unless we go to court and then it would have to be extreme. Shockingly, neither of the two solicitors I gave spoken to so far consider WH to be extreme , and much of the emotional abuse can't be evidenced.

I would love to file on grounds of adultery and name at least three women but the solicitor says it just delays things and racks up costs as they can contest.

Am I right in thinking though that I should proceed with Plan B and D before exposing now, even to my DDs?

I am certain that WH will behave as MrW has described. He is capable of great cruelty and I am fearful of jus anger and callous cruelty.

Deluded

I probably would have done the civil friendship route myself without this site. Always trust the victim to minimise the abuse and volunteer for far too much of the responsibility. Thank goodness Dr H is more objective.

You don't seem to be getting great legal advice. For a start, the UK does operate divorce on a fault basis. You do need someone to be at fault to get a divorce. Either adultery, unreasonable behaviour or the like. No, betrayed spouses don't have as much protection as some US states. But at least the law does not insult us and ignore our causes for divorce instead of treating marriage as something that can be dissolved due to boredom.

Go ahead on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour if you want to. Its true the cause of divorce won't benefit you much but let the paperwork show the truth. I do assume at the very least your examples of UB include his affairs? Mine did, and I would have gone for adultery except I only had proof of an emotional relationship only.

I think you should prepare yourself for a much longer and tougher divorce than your lawyer is preparing you for. The most clueless of lawyers say 'as long as you are civilised it should only take x months'. Technically true but it overlooks the fact you wouldn't be getting divorced if you had a civil partner.

He hasn't changed his mailing address. They commonly don't. Keeping tabs in the home life and with you is more important to them than anything. He will drag it out resisting finality and this means it will be expensive and arduous no matter what you do. However if you have a lawyer who knows this and will force it through you will be less indisposed than otherwise.

I would read the exposure thread to check what you still need to do and how to Plan B correctly thread. Have your intermediary read the training thread.

You're sorely overdue for Plan B and that's your priority. However make sure things are in place correctly before you slam that door. You can expose him and divorce him from within Plan B.

You can expose the women on cheaterville etc if you have proof. That's a more modern and cost effective way of letting the record show the facts. Plus it comes up on Google searches whereas court documents wouldn't.

Completely legal to tell the truth in the UK when you have proof!

If you get any mail that can help you in court (bills, bank statements, investment acct statements), make a copy before you forward it on or just keep it. It is a good idea for you to request the a forensic accountant but if WH refuses to be forth coming then you at least have something to start with.

ACCESS IT...LIKE, YESTERDAY.

His giving you consent and then not changing anything is likely a very valid defense but mostly you want to copy it all so YOU (don't even talk about it with your lawyer) can compare the information with the information your WH is force to accumulate and provide later on in the divorce process. You'll be crossing your fingers that he tries to lie and change things after the fact to hide assets and money. If not...you don't even have to reveal you made a copy. (the problem being if you give your attorney a copy up front, he/she may be obligated to share it with the other side first and then they won't actually lie and/or they may make an issue of you accessing that account). Better to keep it in your back pocket as a computer file in the cloud or a printed copy in a sealed binder you handed off to your sister or brother (so you can honestly answer you don't possess any additional information or documents because you don't...your sister has them in her possession). If the financial information doesn't line up you can either discuss it privately with the forensic accountant or point out verbally known discrepancies.

Do the same thing with all his passwords that you can. He gave you access and consent. Make electronic copies....read later....download onto a flash drive and let someone else hold it. You might discover all sorts of stuff you can use as proof of his bad behavior and proof to the other betrayed husband's out there that might want more than your word for it. Now that your divorcing your accusations of their spouse's cheating with your husband years prior might not sound totally believable.

Mr. W

I will start getting copies of everything and will access the account ASAP.

DD21 is back from Uni for the weekend and spent the afternoon with WH. I worry that he will introduce her to OW6 before I can make it clear to her that it is not acceptable.

OW6 is divorced now but his phone records show that they were in frequent contact(85 text messages over a3 hour period late one evening seems fairly conclusive) a year before her divorce. I want to approach her BS and ask what he knows. I don't want to scare him off. I know where he works, he is a real estate agent, so I could email him on his work address but no details as others will likely have access. I'd appreciate advice on this. Whether there is any reason why not, and how to word it. There is an 8 year old child of the marriage and I think they share residency so I hope he won't mention my contact before he agrees to speak to me.

Deluded

Just another thought as MIL is staying for the weekend as all my DDs are home for an event. When I go into my plan B, do I have to have NC with MIL as well as WH?
She has tried to stay neutral without knowing much( she knows WH has had two affairs and told me she thinks my late FIL may have had affairs).
I would like to maintain a relationship with her.

Deluded

Feeling very sad this evening, as I do when I have spent any time in WH's company. His mother is staying with me. I had arranged for us all to have lunch out today, his M arranged dinner last night( all with the DDs). I invited WH back to the house for tea after lunch but he declined-had to go and watch the football , allegedly with a male friend. DD21 went over to his place to use his computer.
Found myself stalking WH again-drove past his place to see if OW6 was there.

WH had told me that he had had red wine spilled on one of his dress shirts by a colleague when he was away.. Muggins offered to try and get the stains out a few days ago when he mentioned it. Last night after dinner out, WH asked me to take the shirt when his mother was with me. He has plenty of shirts and the shadow of red wine was almost impossible to see. This feels like WH demonstrating to his M that I am still at his beck and call. I have decided that I will definitely expose all I know to MIL when time is right even if it wrecks our relationship. WH is a cruel cold manipulative narcissist.

How can I protect my DDs from his malignant influence?

Deluded

You can't. They are adults and they will have to figure it out for themselves; however, with distance, time and space (no contact) YOU can become a much better dynamic person that your daughters will look to for support and love when they have children of their own. WH/dad will just be a good time granddad that they will try and try to gain acceptance, love and admiration from until they are all nearly blue in the face...but he isn't capable of the intimacy they crave.

You'll be managing YOU...not him, not his relationship with his daughters OR their relationship with him.

As far as MIL. I debated it a bit in my head and with my wife but the long and the short of it is you'll really need to go dark on her as well. Certainly not forever, but for a good bit of time as you withdraw yourself from the toxic environment and regain your sanity. Even if you explain it all to MIL you really can't trust that she won't run interference for WH, try to negotiate or smooth things over, get manipulated by WH to feed him information or feed you information. Even if she were totally on board, you couldn't be sure. Plus...seeing and talking to her is too connected to him for now. Since she seems like your friend and believes she was once a betrayed spouse AND after you expose to her, she should totally understand you pulling back from her. You can promise her this isn't anything she's done or going to do....you just need to completely disassociate yourself from him and for 6 months or a year that includes her. Share some hugs and say your goodbyes.

The nice thing about this is you're practicing good boundaries. It's just not healthy for you to be friends with his mom right now. You need a lot of space and distance from WH right now and she is in his inner circle of trust therefore not safe. By doing this....later, when you have come around emotionally, physically and mentally you can reestablish the relationship and MIL will take your stated boundaries very seriously if she hopes to maintain a relationship with you. See, right now, she's the matriarch and she likely feels she can massage the situation and use her influence to control the situation in her favor. I'm not implying she'd be mean spirited about things but she thinks she knows what's best for her, for grandaughters, for WH and for you. That really isn't relevant now. Only space and a dark Plan B is. The rest will follow that.

You also may discover you don't really want to be friends with her after all. Space from WH really affords you the opportunity to figure out what truly matters to you. Your relationship with his mother might not really fit once you regain a life of your own.

She may also turn on you. Hopefully she'll understand but blood is often thicker than mud and when you attack her precious boy's reputation (an accomplishment she may take great pride in herself) she may not be your supportive friend anymore. Afterall...WH is the golden goose...the prodigal son. You may choose to forgive some of that as I don't think it's necessary to insist or even hope that she's going to disown her son. Most people just don't understand this stuff and they can't/won't see that your attitude right now is not who you are but rather a result of his abuse. Later, when you are happy and healthy....you still may give the relationship a shot even though she may make some huge errors of judgment.

Godspeed,


Mr. W

What do you mean that OW6 and her ex husband share residency?
Does she still live with her ex husband?

Jedi_Knight, no they are not co-habiting. In fact I heard on the grapevine that he has a new relationship. Their DD lives with each of them half the week. They share custody( a term not used so much here now, since children are not things!)

MrW, thank you. That is the sad conclusion that I had also come to. MIL idolises WH, even to the point that his three younger brothers know that , as one of them put it, WH can do no wrong in her eyes. This despite her openly saying that her other sons are far more caring. In fact it is rather sad to see her idolising WH , who treats her fairly dismissively, whilst the others try to please her.

Nonetheless WH is a narcissist and she is likely the root cause of his personality traits(personality disorder) from my research and talking with my IC. So it is complicated.

I expect that MIL will try to manipulate things as you are right, she can't bear to not be in control and in the know. I recall a situation shortly after WH moved out. I had visited MIL with the DDs. We had a nice weekend, I thought, with me resisting the pressure to spill the beans on WH( as I said, wrongly thinking I was protecting the DDs). MIL is unable to hold any information so I knew whatever I told her would be broadcast far and wide.

However with no information to gossip about she twisted my words and told all four sons that I had said that WH's one brother who is still married has affairs. So, Monday morning after we left the night before, I get an angry text from WH telling me not to tell his mother lies and upset her. I should have known better, as MIL twists things. I could not reply to WH other than to deny what she had said, because the conversation was in the context of her telling me that FIL had probably had As. What I said was that I would not be surprised if the other brother did too, as he had opportunity and spent part of every week in London.

Anyway. She will no doubt not really understand my boundaries and tell everyone I am refusing to have anything to do with her, after all the kindness she has shown me, bla bla bla. WH will use that( how dare you upset an elderly lady) as an excuse to make contact and will probably use the DDs as a conduit.

I suspect that the way forward for me is NC with anyone in that family, which breaks my heart because they are the closest thing to family I have in the UK as my own is in Australia.

It is now 4 weeks since I told WH I wanted to talk about a R. It is nearly 2 weeks since I sent him the letter. I am realising that:

1. As usual, WH is waiting for me to initiate a conversation, but then he will talk in circles as usual. ( example, earlier this year after I first saw OW6 in his kitchen cooking him dinner we had a series of non-conversations which included the following: me-do you want a divorce? WH:do you?

2. WH will never change. Even if I meet all his ENs it is not enough for him. I have not found anything that the Harley's have written about philanderers and narcissists but do they accept that some (usually) men , without years of therapy, cannot be faithful?

3. WH lies, gaslights, cheats on me with no remorse and very little guilt. I have occasionally seen him squirm when I have asked him a question and he lies. And later, he told me that he knew I knew he was lying. What? So why did he not tell the truth?

4. So, even though DH thinks I want to talk about reconciling( and when I am with him, I sort of do, even though I know all of the above! ) I realise that things will never change for us. And I feel I am still in limbo.

5. WH does not feel things like most people do. He did actually say that to me once. " I don't feel things like you do". But he is very good at acting empathy etc . He doesn't bother much with me now though.

I am rather sad to see your comments about the DDs though MrW. I can only hope that a strong , honest relationship with me( the go-to parent) will counteract the psychological effects of them trying to have a meaningful relationship with WH( the fun parent!) they already express exasperation about WH's unreliabilty should they ask him to do something for them. And DD15 is angry with him, I know. She, of the three, probably sees through him the most as her whole life he has been having As, and lying to them and me.

I have these moments of clarity about my situation, and then the fears return. That's when I contemplate R, even if it means turning a blind eye. But I do believe I am worth more than that!

I'm sorry this is long again. It helps to post all this confusion. And I am so grateful to MB that I was able to find my old posts. How much hurt and sadness we bury and try to forget, but re-reading it really helped me get a grip on reality.

If there is anyone who has a story of a reformed narcissistic WH (or WW) I would like to hear it!! I suspect there is no such thing.

Deluded.

Just thinking also-WH and his brothers always tried to please their dad, my FIL. WH told me he never got any approval from him. When he died, one of the brothers told WH that now there was no one left to impress.

Which all leads me to think that this is one screwed -up family and why do I want to be part of it?

And I do have family in UK-an aunt and uncle and two cousins, one of whom I used to get on well with, as well as his wife. They have been in touch and invited me to come and see them. I am going to reclaim my family and not let WH's family be so overbearing!!

Deluded