Rats!

I just spent the last 1/2 hour posting about the trip, and lost it all. I don't even care enough at this point to do it again.

Suffice it to say, he was cranky and raised his voice with me, I was very cranky and polite with him. I stewed when we got home, until reading what Still Seeking wrote about repentance.

I prayed, repented, and AJ called me up a few hours later and spontaneously read me worship and we prayed together. Sudden love flood. Everything has been better since, and we have continued to worship again. It's a pity we got busy and let it slip.

Thanks for trying, I'm sure more than one of us would have been interrested in reading it.

Being in love is a wonderful thing when both of you are.

Hope you are getting enough rest.

SS

neak u still there?

whats going on today?

I'm here, briefly.

This morning I had to take Grandpa to court, as he is being sued wrongfully, and this was the first date. Maybe Mom will have time to post something more about it when she gets up.

Then I went to try and clear up a bill, came home for a little (here I am now), and need to go back up shortly and pick up the kids, then go back to the bill place and take them their paperwork, then come home and clean house. Whew! I'm tired just thinking of it.

Just in case you meant how I am M-wise, quite good overall.

Last night we had such a good time. After he got to his delivery site, we chatted on YM for a while, and played checkers (I got totally whooped), then dominoes (we tied).

I haven't seen him since Monday, but we have talked for hours each day. Lucky he has a good phone plan.

How are you doing? Even if it doesn't look good on the outside, as long as you keep going you know it'll turn out ok.

SS - I'm not getting enough rest, exactly, but what I do get is usually of a high quality.

Still just trying to figure out how to get everything done in the evening that I need to, and get up early with the kids to get them ready for school. It will probably come together in a few weeks.

SS - I'm not getting enough rest, exactly, but what I do get is usually of a high quality.

Ho, Ho.
I need 8 hours a night, and I only get 5 but my bed is really soft.

I should be happy for you?

LOL, LOL.

I doubt very much if any thing we say will get you more sleep, but we can keep praying for it. I suspect you'll get help if and when you need it. HE can make it work anyway.

Still just trying to figure out how to get everything done in the evening that I need to, and get up early with the kids to get them ready for school. It will probably come together in a few weeks.

Or a few Decades. Ha, Ha, Ha. No, actually, it does get better. The tasks don't reduce, but you get better at balancing it all, and you learn to pray more, and get the help you need that way since they don't sell sleep at Home Depot these days. (Not sure why, they were always sold out??)

Yes, I remember. It seems so peaceful and slow with only two at home these days. I get lots more sleep now.

Hope the book deal goes well.

SS

This is not the update and muse that I am sorely in need of. Some good, some not as good.

But this was definitely good. AJ had asked me to get something for him out of his email box, and I happened to see an email titled, "Your Order from Family Life".

An email from a source I am familiar with, and obviously not having any harmful content, or anything at all to worry about, and I should probably be able to resist reading it. Especially this close to Christmas.

Not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But he ordered a book called Tips to Romance Your Wife, and it just made me so happy! I can hardly wait till it gets here so I can sneak a peek and see what ideas are in it.

I think I'd better get a similar book for women and leave it lying around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have already been romancing him for months. I hope he has noticed.

If not, YOU get a cast iron frying pan.

SS

Lol!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He noticed for a long time, then I think he forgot to notice for a while, but now he seems to be noticing again.

My worst problems (when I found MB) were Love Busters.

I would ask my W to run errands for me, then ask her why the house work wasn't done - forgetting she was just doing what I asked. I would use DJ's, and say she never did this, or always did that.

Once we both read the book, she would call me on what I was doing, and I understood, because I had read it. DR Haley defines things well, and it's hard not to "get it."

If your H hasn't read "Love Busters" I highly recommend it. There is much more to this than just meeting needs.

It could do wonders for you.

- That........... and a cast iron frying pan.

SS

ROFL - I have several very nice ones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You have hit this on the head. That is exactly what he has been doing, and is what has been my biggest source of frustration and bad feelings.

He asks me to do all this running around for him, drive too, and then he would go off on me for not having all the other stuff done, as well.

"Why didn't you have this done????? What have you been doing all those days since you got home, anyway????????"

"Well, the first day I did this and this. The next day I was gone doing this for you. The day after that was this other thing that you needed done, and right now you have me gone doing this."

"Oh."

KLONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Frying pans are not as effective over the phone.)

So, that's the bad stuff in a nutshell. I will definitely check out the LB book, and ask him to read it, too. It sounds like it would be werry helpful.

I still feel the need to go on a long ramble regarding where I am in my personal healing, maybe several rambles, but will have to save it for later. Dervish Duty calls. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

ROFL - I have several very nice ones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My W likes the middle sized ones. The small ones don't hit hard enough, and the big ones are too hard to swing very fast - and I usually dodge.

You have hit this on the head. That is exactly what he has been doing, and is what has been my biggest source of frustration and bad feelings.

I asked you some things last year, but your answers were very positive - that all was getting better. I had some reservations then. You can see if you go back and read that I kept asking/commenting even after you said things were fine. It was more a feeling, than actual knowledge. I concentrated advising you, wondering if it was your health, or the loss you experienced, or what.

Knowing what I do about me, I would guess he has been this way since ............. well, before the A. Again, I am going from personal experience - what I was like.

We married when I was 21, and she was 19. I was very immature. It's somewhat better now that I'm 51. I really wanted to do what was right, but I didn't have the skills, and I had too much of an ego -

I hope I don't project me onto your H, but I use my past as a frame of reference.

He asks me to do all this running around for him, drive too, and then he would go off on me for not having all the other stuff done, as well.

I never gave her a break. Some days I don't feel really well, and I kind of coast along trying to get by so I can go home and relax. Thinking back, she must have days like that too, but I expected her to be at top form every day, and preform better than I could preform. How bad is that?

"Why didn't you have this done????? What have you been doing all those days since you got home, anyway????????"

"Well, the first day I did this and this. The next day I was gone doing this for you. The day after that was this other thing that you needed done, and right now you have me gone doing this."

"Oh."

Yes, like that.
In our case there were reasons for me to wonder - which I won't go into in detail. The mistrust caused much of the doubt. Instead of talking about the direct issues, we danced around debating the results. It didn't work.

After reading Harley's books we started talking about our feelings. She doesn't take the "grilling" from me any more. She tells me that my queries are DJ's and that if I want to hear about her day, she'll tell me, but that she worked hard, all day long, and it's just tough if I don't like the results.

It's more complicated that this simplified version. We needed to become partners in our marriage, not adversaries. Our differences were tearing us apart. Now we realize they are God given, and we use the our strengths to build each other up, and we try to compensate for the weaknesses of the other if we can, not harp about them.

KLONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Frying pans are not as effective over the phone.)

No - not nearly as good.
W is getting better at telling me she only has so much time, and would I like her to do this or that? Since she can't do both in one day. It helps me not expect so much. She is also getting better at telling me her personal priorities are just as important as mine, and she won't have time today, because of things she needs to do for herself. I am getting better at understanding and doing things for her so she has time to help me if I really need her to.

So, that's the bad stuff in a nutshell. I will definitely check out the LB book, and ask him to read it, too. It sounds like it would be werry helpful.

Once I read it, and realized what I had been doing, it made me sick. I still have a hard time seeing her side sometimes, but as I said, Harley explains it well, and she tells me when I make a DJ. AO's (angry outbursts) are pretty much history. We talk a lot more, and we share feelings. It keeps the resentment from building up. I don't say what I feel until I think about it, and she is more willing to share when she feels I have been unfair. Without the feedback she gives, it's hard for me to know how I'm doing. (that's a hint - talk to him.)


I still feel the need to go on a long ramble regarding where I am in my personal healing, maybe several rambles, but will have to save it for later. Dervish Duty calls. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to hear it.

Did the Dervish make it to bed unscathed?

SS

The last few months have been very much like pre-A conditions. This is how he had been for all of our marriage so far, until the last year and a half. I'm sure there was still room for improvement, even at the best, but it was so much better than how it had been.

I think this will take a long time to fix, with many changes needing to be made on both sides.

When I got home after the evening of fun and chickens, the Dervish was twisted around in his booster so that his feet were sticking up where his head should have been, and his head was pointed down, resting on his pile of blankets. Don't ask me how, but he was still strapped in, too.

Unscathed? Not by a long shot.

Being mortal, and having weaknesses, we never really get to where we want to go while in this life. (This is a personal observation, but remember I a only 51. Perhaps you can ask Grand Pa what he thinks.)

It's hard to know sometimes........ what we should live with, and when we ought to set boundaries and demand change.

Outside input can be valuable - those that don't have the investment we have can often see things we can't see.

Prayer, fasting, and quiet meditation help too. These three are very difficult for mothers to come by - especially mothers who have a dervish still at home.

It would help AJ to do these things also. I include scriptue study, and that helps me personally. It's hard to read the lessons of the scriptures and not respond to them. He could listen to books on tape - perhaps while he drives. Not always, but sometimes.

BTW, you do know I am just relating experiences, and making suggestions don't you? I do expect you to filter this into what works best for you. I hope some or all of it is helpful.

Sometimes I don't have time to explain as much as I want. When I said I was worried last year.......... things come through sometimes. You have been positive when good things happen, but quiet (or quieter) in between times. Sometimes it just feels like you are hurting, but it's hard to know what's happening if you are quiet.

It's more difficult to talk in detail to people you know well, and the longer a person is here, the more they feel they know others they talk to. It all factors in.

I almost bet you have avoided talking about things sometimes because you weren't sure if it was normal Male/Female stuff, or if there really was a problem. Meanwhile, you have bad feelings and they don't go away like you think they should.

While outside influences can often see things we can't, they sometimes go about helping in ways that are harmful. Sometimes intervention us good, sometimes not.

Good - when one or the other in a marriage is selfish, and appeasement doesn't work - but it's the method being used.

Bad - when both in the marriage are trying hard, but just not going fast enough for the third party.

Don't fear.

Rely on God to guide you. You know there's help there. Count on it.

Be careful, act wisely. Don't wear yourself out.

From Mark chapter 8 -
"36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Work at full strength, but don't give away too much.

My compliments to the Dervish, but I have to leave now. I hope this day was good for all of you.

SS

This is very true, but the third option in there was also wondering if my feelings were just a side effect of trying to heal from the A. I figured it was one of the three.


We probably don't have to worry about that one. Not so far, anyway.

Your experiences are very helpful, because even if the particulars are different, the basic concepts are the same as what I am working on right now.

With a renewal of spiritual growth in both of us, that alone is helping a great deal. When that fell aside, things moved to just about the intolerable level, at least for me. Not that everything is perfectly fixed - that will mean new habits, which take time to form - but we are now in a position of being loving toward each other and in a more proper frame of mind altogether.

Even though he is in OR, he read worship for us tonight and prayed for us over the phone. Huge LB deposits there.

There are a few things I must take care of first, then my bright idea is 1) I need to fill out the EN questionnaire for him 2) Read the LB book and 3) Fill out the LB questionnaire.

I'm glad we're having this talk. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this.

If you would, could you give Suzanna42 some advice? She has the classic cake-eater WH. I thought you could shed some light on the subject.

- Jim

I have all kinds of questions that have come to me, but I won't ask most of them.

You said there are things that need improvement on both sides.

I am thinking about OUR journey, and It prompts a few of my questions. (Our - meaning my W and I.)

I did have some valid complains about my W. However, I had lots of "complaints" that were not valid also. If I had a good day, I would overlook nearly anything she did, and try to get along. If I had an OK day, I might bring up things and talk about them reasonably and we might make headway.

If I had a bad day, or was tired, or if something had gone for a long time without being discussed, I might blow up and be angry, and let the DJ's and AO's fly.


We learned some things -

1. Both of us have bad days, and we shouldn't talk when we are having one.

2. It's not good to let things go on good days without getting them out on the table.

3. Talking respectfully to each other and making helpful suggestions works much better than AO's and DJ's

I do recommend filling out the LB survey, and the EN questionnaire. Using this method takes the emotion out of it - prevents it from being discussed just because it's a bad day. You can clear the air, so to speak. Let him read the book first. If he won't read it, kick him out until he is ready to get serious. (If you need backup, call Neaksis, I hear she's good for it.)

With a renewal of spiritual growth in both of us, that alone is helping a great deal. When that fell aside, things moved to just about the intolerable level, at least for me. Not that everything is perfectly fixed - that will mean new habits, which take time to form - but we are now in a position of being loving toward each other and in a more proper frame of mind altogether.

Two things are happening here.
The first is that this is a need of yours. When I first came to the forum, it was debated if this was/could be a need. My personal feeling is that it is. If he is a spiritual leader to your family, it will make huge love bank deposits. This may be at or near the top for you.

The second thing happening is that when we study, and pray it helps us overcome all the other problems we have. All of us have faults. All of us need help overcoming them. You know that unless we come to God we can't be perfected. There is no other way. So, this is the path to overcoming problems in marriage too. When one spouse is trying hard, and using God for help, the other has hope, and faith that things will improve, and it helps them be more patient. It's easier to love.

Even though he is in OR, he read worship for us tonight and prayed for us over the phone. Huge LB deposits there.

Exactly.

I don't know if it would work well for me over the phone, but if it does for you, then I am glad.

My W has similar feelings about spirituality in her spouse. I hope I don't let her down. The adversary is real, the refiners fire is hot.


When we did the work sheets, we did them on three different days. The EN one first - during a picinc a the park. The others later on and I can't remember, except we did them all in Feb of 2002 after I found MB. We wanted to do them all at once, but there was so much to talk about, and it went so long that we thought we better quit, and do more on another day. Both of us had valid concerns. I noticed later, afterI read Mars/Venus that many of our concerns were simply the gender differences in us. If you haven't read that, I recommend it also.

I was teasing about throwing him out, but if he won't read, it's serious. If he cares about you, he should be willing. I'll let you think about that one for a while.

SS

#'s 1-3 are all equally applicable to this, IMO. He has a bad day so stuff that should have come up before comes all at once, when we are both cranky and not inclined to patience. He blows up about things that have bothered him for weeks or even months, and then life goes on very quickly.

For my part, I defend myself very vigorously, doubtless sometimes when I ought to be taking responsibility, but get too upset at how he is speaking to be able to evaluate properly what he is saying. Then I steam at him for several days.

I have tried to talk to him about this the last couple days, and I don't think what I am saying is getting through to him, and I also don't think that his responses are getting through to me. I do think the questionnaires would help to bridge the gap.

That, and some sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Neak

welcome back & I hope the trip was ok.

I've been reading & thinking & thinking & reading ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wondered... the word entitlement popped into my head. Why does he feel entitled to have his expectations met on these issues?

Reverting to old habits?

I do feel he needs to do a bit of the house chores and share the work at home when you are also driving and running around for him. H needs to appreciate that just because he is busy driving it doesn't mean you sit on your butt eating chocs and watching days of lives repeats (or is it still going lol?) ... mmm no that's my job I wish!! ... but seriously, he needs a dose of reality here, kids, home, meals, school, washing, etc etc etc unfortunately we don't have magic pixies at the bottom of the garden to do it all for us.

And then we are expected to be romantic after bleaching the loo or wiping a bubs bottom at about midnight or later ... not exactly my idea of an aphrodisiac. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
however seeing the dishes done or something simple like that can do wonders for the libido after a hectic day. the L bank just goes ca-ching $$$ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As I told my other half, holding Mikey on one hip, the broken washing machine hose spurting water in the other hand, if the unmade bed disturbs you please feel free to make it for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I feel some time needs to be set aside for some serious discussion. This is the stuff which drives recovering couples apart by preventing the nurturing feelings to come back to each of you. Instead resentment just builds up and the old cycle of the previous M issues start over again. The old love bank goes dry pretty quickly as well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Of course there may be issues he's just dyimg to talk to you about too, so a set down might be good in the recovery process when things bother either one. Less misunderstanding then.

Anyway just my 2c and you probably have thought about all of this anyway... just don't put it off. I used to be great at that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

We did talk this morning, and you were spot on that there were things he wanted to talk about, too.

For example, when I am trying really hard to be nice and not blow up at him, how I come across to him is that I'm talking down to him and being patronizing.

That was a real surprise, since no such snobbishness was meant.

In our own way, we each were feeling unappreciated.

I think he understands better now how I feel, trying to do this stuff and not getting it all done, and I understand better how it feels for him, that he thinks of and does a lot of nice things for me (even including household stuff when he is home, although there is never such a thing as too much, lol), and it still seemed to be not enough to keep me happy.

He even thought that my upsetness with him was traceable to the other incident I mentioned to you, which is totally not the case.

As to the entitlement thing, I think he just gets used to relying on me for this stuff, and doesn't even think about it. I would like for us to find a happy medium, if possible, somewhere between where we are now, and where we tend to go when the subject comes up, which is, "Fine, then I won't ask you to do anything for me ever again." I enjoy being able to do things for him, but sometimes I can't always get it done, or just plain forget. (I need to get better at asking him to do things to help when I am extra busy. You may not have noticed this, but asking for help does not come second nature to me.)

The long and the short of it is, it is not enough only for us to do a good job meeting each other's EN's; we need to avoid LB's also, just as the good doctor himself says. And we were both surprised at the things that were making withdrawals from the other person.

A little later, he called me up and read the lovely card he had gotten for me, but none of the places he tried to mail it sold stamps. It was very beautiful, and brimming with thankfulness, and he correctly deduced that it was something I needed to hear just then.

So it's a good start. And I am looking forward to him coming home.