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The problem with using the "consequence" threat as a deterrent is that it basically teaches the potential WS to be more careful about not getting caught - but not to avoid the action.

Moreover, many WS use the "action-consequence" logic to actually justify their actions - "well, the BS was not meeting my EN's, therefore I had the affair" - no doubt we all heard that one.

AGG

This is so true. It's not just "F"WS's that suffer consequences. Those that haven't earned their "F" also do - sometimes even more so. It must be nice to have a BS to blame all your problems on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

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So, what I would like to know is who really believes that an FWS can resolve to never have an affair again because the consequences were so great the first time? Do you think consequences stop people from doing things?


I struggled with this same questions. Especially since plan A seems to be an effort to prove you are a better choice that the OP. It felt like my H was getting off scott free, and it killed me. I wanted him to hurt as much as I did/do.

Anyway, looking at the consequenses to my H, I'd say no, they wouldn't be enough to deter him from another A. I had always told my H that an A would be the end of our M, and he chose one anyway. ENs being filled by another can cause all logic to flee the brain of the party about to engage in an A. Consequences alone will not stop it from happening.

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We counsel w/ Jennifer and that has been a huge part of our recovery. FWH has put into place a LONG list of extraordinary precautions, far more than is listed in SAA.


Curious what those additional extraordinary precautions include?? Would you mind posting some of them?

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It felt like my H was getting off scott free, and it killed me. I wanted him to hurt as much as I did/do.


wonderin, for me, I don't wish the pain the BS experiences on anybody, even my FWH, but it would go a long way if he tried to better understand me by asking me how I'M doing, how I'M feeling, how I'M coping. It would make a great deal of a difference if he showed concern for what I've been thru and comforting me.

In the absense of the BS divorcing the WS, and MAJOR problems directly affecting the WS due to the adultery (eg children shunning them and their OP, financial problems, loss of family, friends, etc), what consequences are their for the WS affair?

I think there is an assumption, also, that a FWS will 'get it' and take responsibility and seek forgiveness for what they have done TO their BS. I think even Dr. Harley states that some FWS NEVER feel/show remorse for their A. Is the absense of remorse an indicator that this particular WS doesn't feel what they've done is WRONG and are more susceptible to seeking out another A when things aren't so easy or good at home?

I hope that made sense. I've been thinking about this thread a lot.


Me-BS-38
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wonderin,

SMB's husband, tst, posted his list above.


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So, what I would like to know is who really believes that an FWS can resolve to never have an affair again because the consequences were so great the first time? Do you think consequences stop people from doing things?

IMVHO it is not the consequences that will make a difference.

If you are punishing you will lose the WS/FWS. So recovery will probably not be an option.

I think it is a reallignment of the WS/FWS Conscience that has more effect.

Conscience is an ability or faculty or sense that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong. It leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral values, and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when our actions conform to our moral values. It is also the attitude which informs our moral judgment before performing any action.

Learning that an Affair, under no Circumstance, is acceptable. Then not being able to justify it using a skewed conscience that suits a persons want to stray.

I don't think a consequence can fix a twisted conscience.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Hey TYK,

I thought I would post the list you asked SMB about.
This is my list:

Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time with another woman that my wife is not present.
g) I will allow only my wife to hear my problems or concerns.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will allow my wife to be my exclusive care giver, unless she specifically calls on someone else to help her.
j) I will defer to my wife in all matters of charity and outreach, with her being the sole point of contact when caring for women.
k) I will not teach martial arts to another woman without my wife being present and having enthusiastic agreement about such training in advance.
l) I will openly share my daily business schedule with my wife.
m) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
n) I will allow only men to provide essential care, such as Doctors appointments, hair cuts, massages, individual counseling, etc.
o) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.

This list is to let SMB see that "I Get It" and I am responsible to protect her at all times.....

I put this list together and it is in my "Marriage Notebook" that I keep with me at work and at home. I review this list at minimum once a week, and I can add to it at any time.

An old friend used to say to me all the time "if you go into the shoe store often enough, sonner or later you will walk out with a new pair of shoes". The "extraordinary precautions" are not "general precautions" to keep me from buying shoes in the store. They are a road map designed to keep me completely away from the shoe store to begin with.

Hope this can help someone....

That is an excellent list of extraordinary precautions. Yours and SMB's story is an inspiration!

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Patriot...perhaps before you say anything else on this thread, you should start being honest with your BW.

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The death penalty does not deter people from committing capital crimes.

Of course it does. Anyone who undergoes the death penalty for a capital crime will probably not commit the same crime again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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If an act that I may commit carries with it a probability of .9 that I will succeed and that success will result in sufficient reward, then the fact that failure would result in death is offset. So playing Russian roulette for 1 million dollars might be tempting enough to overcome my fear of death.

So a 90% chance of becoming a millionaire might cause me to ignore the 10% likelihood that I will end up dead. If we assign a value of 1 reward point to each dollar, then 1M reward points X .9 probability of success gives me 900K reward points value for the playing the game.

But if a person is acting in a rational manner, that is, they are a rational actor, then the .1 probability of death would likely rule out my participation since for most, death would far outweigh any monetary gain that might be incurred and the value of death might be well over a billion negative points and even when multiplied by .1 would still outweigh the paltry 900K value points associated with the one million dollars after the probability of winning is calculated.

Two problems with the idea of consequences being sufficient deterrent to someone committing any specific act are that in some cases what we might assign to the successful effort is much lower than their perceived reward. And the other problem is that an actor involved in the act might terribly underestimate the probability of failure.

To those involved in an affair, or contemplating the beginning of one, the probability of getting caught and therefor actually suffering the consequences is severely underestimated. In addition, the perceived reward is of such high value to them that even a multiplier of .5 or worse for success does not become a deterrent.

These two factors combined mean that relying on consequences alone to ensure specific behavior from any group or individual can be a crap-shoot at best. As BP pointed out, the threat of death for murder seldom causes someone acting in the heat of the moment from actually pulling the trigger and ending someone else's life. This is because they have over estimated the reward and underestimated the probability of failure.

The death penalty does pretty much assure that any given person will not commit the same act twice, however, but only from the standpoint of their inability to commit the crime after they themselves are already put to death.

This is what makes the suicide bomber so difficult to deal with, BTW since for the bomber, success means death and that is at least in part their goal, to be a martyr and by dying accomplish the goal of taking others for the trip. In the case where they have been taught by religious leaders that to die in such an effort is actually the greatest of all rewards, this ensures their entry into paradise regardless of any other reward and punishment system that religion teaches or what their reward would be otherwise.

So as it applies to affairs, the reward versus consequences equation fails because of both overestimation of the reward and underestimation of the likelihood of failure or even of getting caught. Since the affair is based on emotions that are generally overwhelming to the actors, no rational consideration is even give to the process and therefor success and failure mean nothing because the feelings themselves are the reward and the lack of rational control overrides any thoughts of consequences.

So it has to be something other than consequences that act as a deterrent to future affairs and that other thing is the idea of extraordinary precautions.

A person, especially one who has already exhibited a weakness in this regard must take precautions that make a repeat affair less likely because the possible consequences alone aren't likely to result in prevention of allowing the emotions to run away once the situation begins to evolve.

Ah, but this was only an exercise that it has been too many years since performing and now it is all kind of foggy. So if you don't like the argument, ignore it, because it means didly to me anyway.

But if it's worth discussing, have fun.


With much ado about nada...

Mark

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tst,
that list is one any of us should have when in a serious committed relationship with someone. that list is about respect for the other person. i agree with it completely.

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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i can see my ex reading that list and going "yea,that would be the day i'd be that open" but i think if you TRULY love someone that list would be no big deal at all. i'd be that open with someone, no problem.

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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mlhb,

Dr Harley's Extraordinary Care...

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One would HOPE that the pain of "consequences" is not the ONLY means by which a former wayward learns life lessons! (touch the stove and hand hurts)

One would hope that any former wayward develops a strong moral compass with clearly defined 'right vs wrong' behaviors .... for MORAL reasons .... not just to avoid pain.

Emotional intelligence ~and~ moral development .... if one only avoids infidelity just because "IT HURTS" ... it's a shallow reason, in my opinion.

I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain.
Exactly and I require more from myself as well.

Last edited by faithful follower; 02/01/08 08:08 PM.

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Instead of getting into a long philosophical discussion about consequences, why don't we discuss whether or not an ex wayward husband should be TRUTHFUL about his conversations with women he works with?

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To believer's point, there can be FWS who resolve to hide their inconsiderate behavior better the next time. Many of us have heard "I didn't tell you about the affair because I knew how much it would hurt you."

Either you are willing to care for your spouse by following the POJA, or you aren't. If you aren't, put both of you out of the misery of a cat and mouse game.

Cherishing

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Children need consequences to learn right from wrong.

Adults only need conscience and character to refrain from repeating a wrong. Adults without these two attributes are beyond "consequences" - because they're not children, they "don't get it" when a consequence comes - they become a victim instead of learning because their conscience is seared over and they have no character.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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ditto

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Hi Patriot,

I just posted this in your wife's thread and I'd like for you to see it too.

Quote
Frozen,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I had no idea that Patriot was still keeping things from you. THAT IS NOT RIGHT and I don't care how long ago it happened. Dr. Harley said to tell the BS everything they need to know and THEN you can move past that IF there is "just compensation" and "extraordinary care".

And I think that Patriot should add your name on the deed to the house. I mean, if he's a BUYER, he would right? I wouldn't feel SAFE that he was buyer without it.

I also agree that if he said he would pay for half of your son's education that he should put that in writing too. Unless he said, "well if we get a divorce I'm not going to help with the education expenses". And well, that would only mean that he doesn't care about your son really. To me if he felt that way, he's IS using that as some kind of manipulation because he KNOWS it scares you and that you'll do just about anything for your son because YOU are a good person. But you don't have to that Frozen. You CAN do this without him.

It might ease your fears a little bit if you talk to a lawyer and see what your rights are should you decide to not live in deception and manipulation anymore.

You have put just as much, if not more, effort into your marriage and you have every right to benefit from that.

I personally don't see him as a "F"WS until he starts being completely honest with you and does what it takes to earn your trust back. I wouldn't feel valued and cherished in this case. His actions speak differently of someone who is a FWS.



IF you really want this marriage, you have to stop protecting yourself and stop abusing your wife this way.

The poor girl is still in the "discovery" phase.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



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One last thought Patriot because I don't want to pound on you

A few years back there was a "character" on this web site who controlled his wife by posting provocative questions designed to excuse or endorse his behavior. His wife had been so beaten down about questions she would "dare" to ask about his behavior and so-called recovery (not) and over all, there was quite a sense that their marriage could not and would not be saved without a total personality change.

I've watched you post here for quite some time now (years) reserving judgment, but with a growing sense that you could become the next SNL - you are not as depraved (yet) toward your wife - but you could if you continue on this path.

Set aside your pride. Deal with your issues about control. You will find that life has quite the sweet rewards once you deal with your fear about surrender.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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