Originally Posted by Pepperband
" I like you very much "

The fact is, you DO NOT "like" her at all.
Let alone, "very much".

You were being dishonest. Again.

Even a casual observer recognizes that you are still comfortable with dishonesty.

Honesty is not one honest act.
Honesty is also a quality as well as a personal value.

Dishonesty is not one dishonest act.
Dishonesty is also a quality as well as a personal value.

You STILL value dishonesty when you want to avoid something that is tough for you to do.

A person with the quality of, and who values honesty, will not (so effortlessly) lie to anyone.

You seem to focus on each misstep you make as if they were isolated events.
They are not.

You "get it" that this upset your wife.
What you fail to fully comprehend is that even small lies TO OTHER PEOPLE puts your character flaws in a bright spot light.

Let me ask you a question.
Were you ever dishonest making your medical reports?
Why or why not?

Let's pretend you did lie professionally.

Let's say you lied on a coroner report (not just an error) and got found out.
What do you think would have happened to your professional reputation?
Would you explain that you were just trying to spare someone's feelings by the lie?
Would you claim to have been "suckered" or "manipulated" by an outside influence to make a dishonest report?

it is extremely dangerous for me to fall for this kind of thing

You did not "fall".
You were dishonest, because that is what you do.

learned a lot about women and how they manipulate men

You were not "manipulated".
You lied.

I STRONGLY urge you to re-think these comments you made.
Can you see the ultimate purpose of your comments?

Both quoted comments were you excusing yourself for being dishonest.

Think about this.

If I see or hear my CURRENT husband (after 14.5 years of M recovery) being dishonest to ANYONE .... it is a redflag

I do not want a dishonest spouse.
I do not want a scapegoating spouse.
Neither does your wife.

I talked with DWG about this, and you are right. Though I was taught that dishonesty is sometimes OK, if it is done to avoid hurting other people's feelings, it certainly is, and has been, a pattern with me that has infused my entire married life, and it is one that must be completely eliminated in our marriage, and it has. In my professional life, my cases and reports were scientific. There was nothing social about them, so there was never any motivation or reason to be at all dishonest. The reports went to other doctors, not to patients, since I was a pathologist, though sometimes the primary doctors shared those reports with patients word for word. No. My policy in my career was to seek and report absolute truth or be as precise as possible in expressing the degree of uncertainty I had. I was good at it and was never sued in 24 years. So, that was not an issue there.

I need to ask you a question. If an acquaintance has a severe deformity they are self-conscious about, and they ask you if they look "ugly", are you perfectly honest with them, or do you tell them "I think you are a beautiful person, and people judge you on that, not on your appearance", even though you know that to the vast majority of people who sees her, that person is revolting or disgusting? I know that is an extreme example, but there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane. I know that you know that. Is such a thing unacceptable from the standpoint of MB radical honesty? I don't think it is, unless it involves marital relationships. And in my case, trying to be kind to someone who expressed hurt was not recognized by me as manipulation, because when thinking about it more, it was manipulation, and it was a threat. I believe that as long as I am radically and obsessively careful about any such expressions of feelings coming from a member of the opposite sex, such as "hurt" or "offended" or something positive for that matter, then I will be protecting myself from my weaknesses. Radical honesty to such a person is not only a good idea, but necessary. This episode was a good point of learning for me, and a lesson in reinforcing and improving my precautions. But it was no more than that, Pepperband. If you see my explanation as mere excuse for something unacceptable and something that has global consequences for our recovery, I understand that. But you would be wrong. I fully understand that my attempt to not hurt someone's feelings was dangerous, and I can no longer be concerned about the feelings of any woman who might be manipulating me. Lesson learned. As far as I am concerned, that is a good thing. Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?

Last edited by GreenMile; 08/17/10 12:03 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.