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CWMI, Bitbucket, and Prisca,

Thanks for taking the time to help out -- I do appreciate it! I was asked for divorce just after July 4th last year. We started reconciling in August. Although I'm a newbie on this board, I'm not a newbie overall -- I've been at this for 10 months and have done TONS of reading, research, telephone coaching, and therapy. The only reason I point that out is that I don't want anyone to get frustrated if I keep saying "tried that". My full history is on the DivorceBusting forums if anyone is interested.

I'm here because I believe I'm stuck in a Pursuer/Distancer cycle that is not getting better. I know one of you asked me to drop the non-Marriage Builders jargon, but I have found it most powerful to draw from all sources to try to understand the best way forward, and that dynamic is the one that resonated with my situation the most.

CWMI, I will go through the recreational inventory. Yes, in the past I have made the mistake of being too aggressive when doing things together, but I'm well beyond that now (I'm in my 40's). I'm happy to go for family bike rides and cruise along slowly. Although I'm an aggressive skier, I taught all 3 of our kids to ski and spent hours snowplowing with them. We also go boating, we had a nice bowrider and my wife went out twice because she doesn't like to get splashed. I had a sailboat and she wouldn't go out at all -- she's tough. Believe me, the recreational activities is not for lack of trying, I'm willing to do whatever she wants. I didn't used to like going for a walk, but she did that for a little while, and I joined her and got to like it too, now I'm the only one that does it.

Bitbucket, those two quotes DO square because it's a matter of degrees. She likes to connect 3x per week. That's different than not wanting to connect at all. If I do 2x per week, she's not happy and wants more connection. If I do 4x, it's too much. Those aren't hard and fast rules, sometimes she wants more, sometimes less, but that's the general average and the "stated preference".

Prisca, I think the natural response for someone on the receiving end of a divorce request / infidelity is to overdo the pursuit, and I was certainly guilty of that. In the end, it made my wife feel very guilty because she was not reciprocating. It made her feel inadequate and not good enough. That's why I backed off. I haven't backed off completely, but the volume of my overtures was not helping. My attitude is not "I can't do it, she won't let me" (I understand how you got that impression). Instead, it's "I can do it, but it doesn't seem to be helping".

Now I understand that people resist change, and that any time you start acting differently things get worse before they get better. Often you'll interpret the resistance to change itself as being a resistance to your new efforts and will back off before you've given them a chance to work. I get that, and I have endured lots of worse before better. Some things did eventually get better, others did not, they truly got worse. One of the things that truly got worse was continually trying to force-feed the love bank.

I went to a few marriage counselors. The last one I worked with and finally got W to come along said that W does not feel "safe" in the relationship, in that she feels that nothing she does is good enough, that whatever expectations she satisfies, there will always be another one there to take it's place -- therefore, what's the point in trying?

He told me one-on-one that when I pursue, I exacerbate this feeling, because pursuit implies some expectation of reciprocation in one form or another.

I have noticed that when things are going well, W will find some reason to get upset to gain some distance -- some of these reasons she comes up with are just crazy making.

I do really hope that this site will give me some new approaches. I have been making nearly constant love bank deposits -- although I've backed way off on the rate, I'm still doing it, and I've been doing my very best to minimize withdrawals.

The confusion I have is that this "earning love through pursuit" kind of sounds like being the nerdy kid who thinks that buying enough flowers for the pretty girl will eventually earn her love, when in fact I don't believe that ever works.

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Prisca, I think the natural response for someone on the receiving end of a divorce request / infidelity is to overdo the pursuit, and I was certainly guilty of that. In the end, it made my wife feel very guilty because she was not reciprocating.
It made her feel inadequate and not good enough.
Dr. Harley wouldn't agree with you. Would you like to try Marriage Builders? It won't work if you cherry pick it, and mix it into other programs.


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I'm here because I believe I'm stuck in a Pursuer/Distancer cycle that is not getting better. I know one of you asked me to drop the non-Marriage Builders jargon, but I have found it most powerful to draw from all sources to try to understand the best way forward, and that dynamic is the one that resonated with my situation the most.

But that hasn't improved your marriage, has it? So knock it off, and try MB and only MB, at least for six months. Have you read plan A? What did you two do to recover from her affair? Was there exposure? Were extraordinary precautions put in place? How much have you read of either the surviving an affair articles here, the forums, or the book?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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Originally Posted by CWMI
But that hasn't improved your marriage, has it? So knock it off, and try MB and only MB, at least for six months.

Many of the things I've done have improved my marriage, some have not. I've hit a plateau, but everything that came before was not a dead end.

I also don't believe that any approach is "one size fits all" -- if that were true there would be no other approaches. Yes, I'm willing to try MB and only MB, but I'm not sold yet. We're playing with high stakes, so I'm not just going to jump in with both feet unless I believe there's a reasonable prospect for success in MY situation.

I will sign up for the 5 coaching sessions program which represents a significant investment -- I'm willing to take that leap.

Originally Posted by CWMI
Have you read plan A?

Yes, 10 months ago I read all about Plan A and Plan B. I did not discover the affair until it was over, so neither plan was relevant. As it turns out, the other man was enacting Plan A, so my W had no choice. I did follow the advice in Plan A however, and went into the confrontation with the goal of normalizing, avoiding shaming, and avoiding blaming. I pursued a plan of measuring my actions against the yardstick of resentment -- would what I was saying or doing create more resentment, or less? I let that guide my actions. Many of the articles assume that wayward spouse is motivated to repair the marriage. In my experience on the DB board, that is rarely the case, at least initially. Usually the wayward spouse is "checked out" and really not that interested in working on the marriage, so the one who wants to repair it has to do all the work themselves -- at least initially -- and that's what I did.

Originally Posted by CWMI
What did you two do to recover from her affair?

I did a lot of research and counseling. According to Dr. Haley's article, there are 3 steps -- (1) end the affair, (2) provide transparency, and (3) meet each other's basic emotional needs.

So for #1, she had no choice, but it was more complicated than that, as she had a prior man she was infatuated with who never really engaged with her, and she was still in contact with him. I got her to agree to no contact with that guy too, although he wasn't really pursuing her. She did provide complete transparency, so #2 was covered also. She has not done #3, and that's why I'm here.

A lot of the affair recovery was done on my own. There are some articles I found on Google that recommend many things that can be done to help, I had her read a couple, but she didn't really pick up on the suggestions. I know she feels badly about how she made me feel, but she doesn't really feel badly about having the affair. From her perspective, she was on a path to leave me anyway, so it wasn't really the wrong thing to do. Obviously I don't buy that, but that's where we are.

Originally Posted by CWMI
Was there exposure?

Not as broadly as Dr. Haley recommends, we told some people but not others. We didn't tell her parents or my parents, we didn't tell our kids. I told my sister and her sister, and a select group of our friends. The program I was following at the time was "Divorce Busting" which is firmly against exposure. That program worked for me really well to turn around the divorce and get to reconciling, so I stuck with it.

Originally Posted by CWMI
Were extraordinary precautions put in place?

Well, I confronted the other man and made my feelings known, and set a boundary for him. They were already working for different companies so no job change was required. His wife knew, so no need to go there. Working with a Divorce Busting telephone coach, I was referred to Pat Love's website about what constitutes an "office spouse" and where the line should be drawn on flirtation, etc. The DB coach recommended that we put a mutual contract in place that is very specific about what exactly is "over the line" and what is not, and that we agree to expose to each other through brutal honesty if we are tempted by someone else, and to work together to deal with it. We put that in place.

All of that, from my perspective, is defensive however and only works in the short term. Longer term I believe you have to get to a place where you believe that you are a spouse who only a fool would cheat on, because of the effort YOU are putting into the marriage. Once you're there, you don't worry about infidelity, because that would be their loss.

Based on what I've done in the last 10 months, that's where I am. I really don't worry about infidelity at all -- if she cheats I'm gone, and I'm good with that. I will make no apologies, and won't look back thinking there's something I could have done better -- I'm just going to do it up-front.

So yes, infidelity is in our history, yes it was horribly painful, but it's not at the forefront of what I'm trying to do right now. I don't think that continuing to focus on it is going to help -- what you focus on expands.

Originally Posted by CWMI
How much have you read of either the surviving an affair articles here, the forums, or the book?

When I was in the midst of recovering from it, I read everything I could get my hands on, including the articles and the forum here and elsewhere, I have not read the book YET, but I will. Suffice it to say I have read many many others. My favorites so far have been:

"Passionate Marriage"
"Divorce Busting"
"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It"
"The Passion Trap"
"The Solo Partner"
"The Sex-Starved Marriage"
"Why Good People Have Affairs"
"After The Affair"
"Love Must Be Tough"
"The Five Love Languages"

I also read:

"Our Love Is Too Good To Feel So Bad"
"The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011"
"No More Mr. Nice Guy"
"Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S"
"Mindful Loving"
"The Divorce Remedy"
"The Birth Order Effect for Couples"

(Yes, I've been around the block)

The books were all valuable in their own ways, many have recurring themes expressed differently. Some resonated with me more than others based on the specifics of my own situation.

I feel like I've answered all your questions, so maybe you can answer mine:

1) WHY should I try the MB program for six months? What's the success rate? What makes it better than all the other programs out there?

2) What is it about my situation that's going to be helped the most?

As you can see, I've read a ton of books, why is reading one more going to be a huge eye-opener?

I'm willing to read it, I just want to hear from you on this forum, who have had success, why THIS program is the one to go with.

Thanks!

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Accuray, welcome to Marriage Builders. The difference between Marriage Builders and other marriage programs is that MB places most of its focus on restoring the romantic love in the marriage. Harley doesn't just claim to do that, he takes surveys to measure his success. [if you are in his online program] He restored the romantic love to my own marriage, and that is not just an empty claim, but based on the survey results taken by both my husband and I. We have a passionate, romantic marriage and we took the course in 2007. I know many, many other couples who can make the same claim.

Most other programs focus on things like "communication" or "conflict resolution," which won't save a marriage. Harley has a very specific plan to restore the romantic love. His program does include conflict resolution and communication, but all that is secondary to creating romantic love.

Most couples that show up for his course contain one reluctant spouse. So Harley's first mission is to persuade the reluctant spouse to try the program. He does this by selling the benefits and features of his program. My spouse was reluctant and he was brought on board when the policy of joint agreement was explained to him.

Harley is often very successful at bringing a reluctant spouse on board. That might be what you need and I suspect is what has been missing in all these other programs. Your spouse has no motivation to try them.

I don't know of any other marriage program that can restore romantic love to the marriage. Most counselors don't even believe it is possible. I have read several of the books you cite and most have no such plan. They don't even have a plan. Rather, they focus on "communication," or various other elements, which does not save a marriage. Marriages fail because the couples fall out of love, not because they are bad communicators.

You might want to check out this article to get an idea of how it works: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Additionally, Harley wrote this in response to the question "Does Marriage Builders Really Work?"

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley in Does Marriage Builders Really Work?"
When I found that the model I've developed had helped over 90% of those I was counseling, I gave up my career as a college professor and started counseling full-time. At the time, I didn't assume that it would save all of the marriages it seemed to help, because I felt there were factors beyond a couple's control. But after 35 years of experience with this model, I'm not convinced that it works with 100% of couples who follow it. I've yet to witness one couple out of the tens of thousands I've seen, that did not experience a healthy and happy marriage by following this model. Personally, I feel it's the only answer to the question, how can a couple have a great marriage for life?

But it�s very difficult to prove that one model of marital satisfaction is superior to another. The ultimate test is to randomly assign couples to various models and to measure their marital satisfaction after the provisions of each model have been implemented.

The training of therapists is a huge problem: How can we be sure that the therapist assigned to each model was properly trained? And there�s also the problem of representation and random assignment: Does the group of volunteer couples represent the population at large? And is the assignment to treatment groups really random? There�s also the ethical problem of assigning couples to a control group where they receive no effective treatment. When they divorce, does the researcher bear any responsibility? Finally, if someone who has a stake in the outcome does the research, it usually shows that their approach is best. Shouldn�t studies of alternative models of marital satisfaction be conducted by those neutral to the outcome?

My own personal experience led me to the model I�ve been using for the past 35 years. But that�s not proof of it�s superiority over other models. What I need is objective studies conducted by those who have no bias that compare this model to others. That�s hard to find even among those who have published hundreds of articles on martial therapy.

But I can direct you to three studies that support my enthusiasm. They all deal with my book, His Needs, Her Needs, the popular application of my model, and the effect it has on couples that read it.

The readers of Marriage Partnership Magazine were asked which self-help book on marriage helped their marriages the most. In that survey, His Needs, Her Needs came out on top. I didn�t know that the survey was even being conducted, so when I called the editor after the results came in, I was curious to know more. He told me that it not only was the top choice, but it was far ahead of second place (Ron R. Lee. Best Books for a Better Marriage: Reader�s Survey . Marriage Partnership Magazine, Spring 1998).

In a national survey that I sponsored, people were asked if any self-help book on marriage solved their marital problems. Out of 57 books that were read, only three were reported to have actually solved marital problems. The three were the Bible, James Dobson�s Love for a Lifetime, and His Needs, Her Needs (Lynn Hanacek Gravel. Americans and Marriage: National Survey of US Adults. Barna Research Group, 2001).

Finally, five out of six couples that read His Needs Her Needs were found to experience significant improvement in marital satisfaction (Julie D. Braswell. The Impact of Reading a Self-Help Book on the Topic of Gender Differences on One�s Perceived Quality of Marriage. Doctoral Dissertation, 1998, Azusa Pacific University.

Granted, these findings are not conclusive evidence that the model I use is superior to every other model of marital satisfaction. But when you find one that works for every couple that actually follows it, you have to be impressed. And coming as I did from almost zero effectiveness to almost complete success, I can�t begin to tell you how convinced I am that it�s the solution to a very difficult problem we face in our society.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hi, welcome to MB!

I was wondering if your wife has any issues with depression?

I agree with the others the 15 hrs. of UA time does make a huge difference! Do you think you guys are getting the 15 hours in every week? This does not include time spent watching TV, or with other people, including your children.

UA time does not have to be major events. It can be small simple things like a drive in the car, a shopping trip, a walk through your neighborhood, going out to dinner, or even sitting at Starbucks together.

I bet you can find things that she would enjoy, you might just have to be creative. So she doesn't enjoy boating, that's OK. Maybe she enjoys more of the simple every day type things.

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tismeagain hit on the key to restoring romantic love: undivided attention time. In order to CREATE romantic love, couples must spend 20-25+ hours of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. [15 hours to maintain]

THAT is the key to restoring romantic love. Without that, couples do not fall in love. Marriage Builders does not work without that step and neither does any other program.

The biggest problem with UA time is willingness of both partners. That is where one of the MB coaches can come in handy. They can be very helpful in motivating a reluctant spouse to try this.

The Policy of Undivided Attention


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thanks everyone! Very helpful. I'm convinced enough to dive in and embrace it. 25 hours a week is going to be a challenge for sure, but I understand that if I don't follow the program, I can't expect the results. I'll provide updates on how things are going -- great to hear about the success stories!

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Originally Posted by Accuray
Thanks everyone! Very helpful. I'm convinced enough to dive in and embrace it. 25 hours a week is going to be a challenge for sure, but I understand that if I don't follow the program, I can't expect the results. I'll provide updates on how things are going -- great to hear about the success stories!

Accuray

Accuracy, a HUGE help will be the workbook here with all the worksheets in it. In the back section is the Undivided Attention worksheet. We tore it out, made copies and use this once a week to schedule our time for the next week. We write in times, dates, planned activities, etc. This makes it more likely that you will follow through because time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off. The undivided attention policy will get you the biggest, fastest bang for your buck. You will start noticing a big difference in about 8 weeks.

It is a chore at first, but once you fall in love again, you will look forward to your time.

Good luck!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by bitbucket
Originally Posted by markos
One thing Dr. Harley says is that if the husband is on board with the Marriage Builders program, the chances for the marriage are very good, much better than if it is the wife who is on board and the husband reluctant. The husband has greater potential for being able to win his wife back to the marriage by making love bank deposits.
(threadjack)
Markos, can you provide a quote or context for that? I'm curious as to Dr. H's logic behind that. I would think it's the other way around - it seems to me that a wife, once checked out, is harder to bring back than a disengaged husband. Just curious.
(end threadjack)

Oh I wish I had an exact date or link for you. He says it frequently on the radio. He also adds that he is harder on men than women, for that reason! smile Typically it is up to the husband to be the "pump primer," the one to meet emotional needs when his own needs are not being met, although occasionally a wife can be successful at that, too. He also says women suffer much more, physically, mentally, emotionally, from trying to meet their husband's needs when their own needs are not being met, than men do.

If you were to go through the radio archives and listen to the entire month of May, 2010, you would hear Dr. Harley make the statement I am referring to. I know this because I just got done relistening to May, 2010. I'm sorry I don't have an exact date.

If you listen to every show daily for the upcoming month, there's a good chance you would hear it as well, because Dr. Harley does say this frequently.

If you listen to the radio clip links I posted above, you will hear how much emphasis Dr. Harley gives to this betrayed husband on the way his marriage will turn around if he really, really gets after meeting his wife's emotional needs and keeps it up even if it is difficult and extremely discouraging for awhile.

Whenever I get discouraged about my marriage, I ask "Is my wife in love with me at the moment?" If the answer is "no," then I remind myself "Well, then, let's revisit this issue once she is in love with me, and in the meantime I'll see what I can do to address her current complaints and make larger love bank deposits than I have been making." I always find a couple things I can address, and when I do, inside of a couple of days, things start to get better, every time.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Accuray
Thanks everyone! Very helpful. I'm convinced enough to dive in and embrace it. 25 hours a week is going to be a challenge for sure, but I understand that if I don't follow the program, I can't expect the results. I'll provide updates on how things are going -- great to hear about the success stories!

Accuray

Great, Accuray! You will find that it is worth it!

As you go forward, let us know how we can help you, let us know how willing your wife seems to be to join you. We can provide tips and motivation for whichever scenario presents itself, but you will find that YOU are her biggest motivator.

Since I last posted yesterday I see that it's come out that your wife had an emotional affair, and I just wanted to confirm: does she ever see or talk with the other man any more?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Hi Markos,

I went into some detail on that on page 3 of this thread. No she does not see the other man, he enacted "Plan A" and has stuck to it to save his own marriage.

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Originally Posted by Accuray
Hi Markos,

I went into some detail on that on page 3 of this thread. No she does not see the other man, he enacted "Plan A" and has stuck to it to save his own marriage.

Accuray

Thanks, Accuray, I'm sorry I missed that as I tried to catch up. I did see where you said the OM was in Plan A, but I thought that you meant he was applying it in his pursuit of your wife!

They do not work together, do they? Any contact between them, no matter what they do to make it "appropriate," will hinder recovery. Any mementos she kept of him, anything that triggers her to remember him, will be a hindrance.

You want your efforts to be effective, so it's important to exhaustively weed those out.

And the circumstances that led to her affair have to be completely eliminated. She has to build extraordinary precaution walls such that you will know she is never having an affair again (more than just you being a wonderful spouse: she needs to follow good marital rules like not having friends of the opposite sex, not discussing personal things with men, providing complete transparency to you, etc.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Accuray
Many of the articles assume that wayward spouse is motivated to repair the marriage. In my experience on the DB board, that is rarely the case, at least initially. Usually the wayward spouse is "checked out" and really not that interested in working on the marriage, so the one who wants to repair it has to do all the work themselves -- at least initially -- and that's what I did.

I wanted to come back and comment on this. You are right; usually the wayward spouse is addicted to the affair, which fogs their brain, and the first step is to bust the affair and get through withdrawal before the wayward spouse is motivated to restore the marriage.

In Dr. Harley's affair book he provides two examples, in one the wayward spouse ended the affair freely and came back to work on the marriage; in the other, the affair died a natural death and the wayward spouse came back to the betrayed spouse as "second choice." But in BOTH scenarios, the marriage recovered!

Quote
There are some articles I found on Google that recommend many things that can be done to help, I had her read a couple, but she didn't really pick up on the suggestions.

As you get more and more effective with making Love Bank deposits, she will become more motivated to work on your marriage. She has probably felt like it was hopeless in the past, and she may have even felt a "marriage counseling/program burnout" given the number of books I see you've been through. (I had a similar library growing before we came to MB. I don't know where most of those books are, now. smile )

Quote
I know she feels badly about how she made me feel, but she doesn't really feel badly about having the affair. From her perspective, she was on a path to leave me anyway, so it wasn't really the wrong thing to do.

Sadly, this is pretty typical, but it doesn't impact recovery. Most wayward wives tend to blame their husbands for their affair, at least at first. Dr. Harley says that a real owning up to their full responsibility for the affair often doesn't come until later, if ever.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Accuray Offline OP
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I'm about 30% of the way through "His Needs Her Needs" and have a telephone coaching appointment arranged. I also listened to the radio clips that Markos posted on this thread.

That situation does bear many similarities to mine, although my wife is more engaged at this point than the caller's wife, and my wife did not have a physical affair. The advice given was to be a model husband, make constant love bank deposits, avoid all love busters, and expect nothing in return for at least 2 years. The caller didn't think much of that, he said "no way, just not going to happen".

I wonder what the outcome of that case was? Was there a follow up?

I do question if continuing to pursue a spouse who wants more space is really effective. Although you may believe you're making love bank deposits, you may be actually making withdrawals if you're crowding them or if they resent your efforts.

Accuray

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Originally Posted by Accuray
I do question if continuing to pursue a spouse who wants more space is really effective. Although you may believe you're making love bank deposits, you may be actually making withdrawals if you're crowding them or if they resent your efforts.

Accuray

It is often very effective with a withdrawn WOMAN, but rarely effective with a withdrawn MEN. Men typically don't respond well to being pursued whereas, women DO.

That is a different situation from a spouse who says she wants "space." When someone uses the "space" word, that is almost always a sign of an affair. And when there is an ongoing affair, of course, nothing you do will make a difference until the affair is brought out in the sunlight and stabbed through the heart! laugh


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I pursued a spouse who wanted more space and verbalized that he thought that exploring separate activities was the avenue to closeness.

It worked.

I was a relentless *b*, too.

I have a friend who moved out when his wife wanted space. They're now divorced.

"Space" equals distance, not closeness. If what you want is closeness, be close.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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As you can see, I disagree with Mel about it working with men. laugh

I also had Steve Harley, though.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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