Well I agree with MB principles and have been trying to implement them but find problems which I then post looking for advice to implement only to be ignoredby most peopple posting here- comments even negativer ones would help me understand what I'm doing right, wrong aor should be trying when I''m not. Jante

As a "newbie", there is absolutely no question that the feedback I have received from the "old-timers" is invaluable, and to be honest, when I see posts from folks in the lower member numbers, they are treated with more weight than others. (This may or may not be right, but certainly there's considerable weight to those who have been here longer.)<p>While at times some of us do get a bit carried away, and perhaps appear to be "defiant" or "subversive" to the MB principles, I think for the most part everyone here embraces the principles, and is trying to learn, understand, and apply them. I certainly am.<p>However; questioning them is, I believe, a healthy exercise, in the sense that it makes us think about them, and perhaps better understand them, and especially helpful in trying to apply them to situations that are not quite straight-forward. Like anything else, a healthy debate and analysis is valuable, and it does not mean that we don't embrace the principle, it just means that we test it and probe it, the better to understand it and in order to formulate our own implementation of it.<p>In my conversations with Steve Harley, even he has said that there are times when we modify the "textbook" approach to reach a certain goal. This in no way compromises the principle itself; it may momentarily compromise the "traditional" order of events or steps, but in the end, we are striving to reach the same conclusion.<p>As a student of the theories and principles, I know it has been extremely valuable for me to post to others with my "take" on things or my opinion, and the suggestions I have given are, to the best of my knowledge, in line with MB and Harley principles. (If they are not, or some of you "old-timers" see that they may not be, it would be valuable to get that feedback as well.)<p>The point I am trying to make, though, is that posting to others has helped me learn and grow, and I know that while applying them to my case is sometimes harder because of the feelings involved, I find it is a great learning experience to post to others, where feelings are not as involved, because it helps me see and express a more traditional implementation of the principles, with the hope that the person to whom I post will be helped by them, and it helps me grow my knowledge of them, and perhaps makes me see that I should apply them in the same way to myself, however foreign or awkward they may feel.<p>I do agree, however, that if there are folks posting who really do not adhere to the principles, and do not want to, that they should perhaps temper their posts, or at least not attack the principles but rather seek to better understand them by approaching their posts with a healthy, questioning sceptisism.

Hey Lor - I've always thought you were one of the more level headed people around here - gosh, I wasn't even thinking of you as a problem!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>nursebetty:<p>first, is this a Marriage BUILDER's site, or is this a PERSONAL GROWTH site in the face of adversity - or both, do the two go hand-in-hand.
<hr></blockquote><p>Hand in hand. If you want your marriage to be better, and you are 50% of the marriage, then doesn't it make sense to make yourself better? Making your spouse better doesn't work, trust me!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I see that some of the OldTimers (not all) are no longer married - that worries me. When you are trying your damndest to save your marriage and trying to put MB principles into place and a lot of the people advising you are no longer married, it does make you wonder. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes some of the oldtimers here didn't make it. That's because not all marriages CAN be saved. Not all marriages SHOULD be saved either. However, those divorced oldtimers are the ones that should give everyone the most hope, because if you notice, for those most part, those people have lived through affairs, thr the divorce, and are now successfully rebuilding their lives and they are experiencing joy amongst the regret for dashed dreams.<p>Most newcomers show up here in a panic thinking that their lives are over if their marriage isn't saved. These oldtimer divorce survivors are proof that an affair does NOT ruin your life, that life can be happy and good again. What those divorced oldtimers are demonstrating is that these princples work, and are valuable, for surviving the affair, not letting the affair destroy lives, and how to come out on the other side a better, happier person.<p>And you know what? They ultimately couldn't save their marriages, not because they failed as spouses, but because their spouses failed them. I know from reading their posts that they will make fantastic spouses in a marriage that they deserve in the future.

Dear Lor,<p>I love you! I certainly have no interest in saying anything that hurts you. Please accept my apology if you felt anything I've said was directed toward you.<p>To Everyone:<p>Re: Quasi-Plans, Kinda-Plans, non-existant-Plans:<p>If a person has done all they can within the framework of MB principles to save their marriage, then OF COURSE modifications can be made. And obviously, it is ALWAYS the choice of the BS to do WHATEVER necessary to save their marriage, be it MB, DB, or WHATEVER!<p>My frustration comes when someone hops into MB, reads a little, decides it's crap, and goes into hurting people's threads saying things like: "Plan A is for wussies"... and that may even be a direct quote!<p>I am not an MB-ite. But I do have a weird sense of loyalty to the program. I also believe in DB, as well as plain old therapy, and also just waiting it out for a second chance. WHATEVER WORKS.<p>Lor is also right about the fact that she, BR, and I are all three pieces of the same puzzle that ended up in different places. ALL WORKED, if the desired result is being a successful human in a loving marriage.