dear bramblerose- thank you so much for the reply. i will try to clarify a few things for you so you get whole picture. when i stated real recovery-that was the night we "shot the elephant." we discussed his family history and the things he never shared with me. we also discussed parts of our relationship and the affair. his other woman has been out of the picture since january. so as far as withdrawal-it was over rather quick. he told me that back then. so either he was telling truth or lying. i believe he was telling truth. i worried about withdrawal being so short myself.<p>as far as him loving me-i do believe he is sincere in his love for me. he has that look i havent seen for a very long time. he states it often and shows it in other ways to me. so i can either believe he is being honest or lying again. i believe he is being honest.<p>as far as our radical honesty goes-yes this is a difficult one for us. we are still trying to protect each other from the bad stuff. in the throws of d-day husband got huge promotion and the responsibility and stress has been immense. in the throws of my pain and anguish he asked if he could deal with all this-meaning us and marriage-after 3 months, so he could concentrate on his job and the dealership. can you imagine getting this all dumped on you, wanting to die, and being diagnosed with post traumatic stress and having your husband say flat out his situation is just more important? well i agreed. that is were my deadline came from. i decided to give him 5 months to see if he would finally start to deal with this or just bury it, which is what he would do to solve this. i havent said i was gonna act on deadline, just that this treatment of me hasnt helped his cause. i will probably not bolt out the door just yet. i have chosen not to discuss this with him as to not add further stress to him, he allready has health problems from the stress in his life. i back off by choice. i will not back off forever though. i want a marriage that we are first, anything less is unnaceptable to me.<p>now on to can i make him feel better and meet his needs better-can you say doormat? i have dont backflips to give him everything he wants and beyond. he has stated i am perfect in what i am doing-i am asking periodically can i improve anything. i meet, and meet, and meet, and he sails through with giving me crumbs or promises to do better in the future. i have put my needs on the back burner because of his job and his existing stress. whining about having my needs met is only gonna add to his stress. he allready knows he is doing a shi** job at meeting them, he has said sohimself. so to bring it up again only adds to his frustration and stress.<p>as far as not telling him about deadline-he is a salesman by trade-he can schmooze any situation. i didnt want to be sold. i wanted the changes to truelly come from him-not an act. telling him about it would not have been good-and i think we have all said i'll hang in ther till such and such a time and see what happenes. we usually extend our deadlines, and it makes it easier to cope.<p>i hope this clarifies some stuff. thanks for the input.

do i really seem as if i am having a pity party? i just needed input as to why he might do this and if i was wrong to be upset?

Yes you are on a pity pot. Are you wrong for being upset? Yes, and no.<p>I had a whole long response almost finished to you and my daughter grabbed the mouse and I lost it! <p>Let me get another cup of coffee while I try to rewrite what I had to say....ugh.

ok, try #2!<p>Nikko ~ your explanation doesn't really change much in what I said above.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as far as our radical honesty goes-yes this is a difficult one for us. we are still trying to protect each other from the bad stuff. in the throws of d-day husband got huge promotion and the responsibility and stress has been immense.<hr></blockquote><p>Anytime you tell a lie (or omit certain facts) you do grave harm to your spouse. First of all, you take away your spouse's choices - isn't that one of the reasons why lying about an affair is so wrong? By withholding information to "protect" another person, you are making a couple of disrespectful judgements. First, you are deciding that the other person can't "handle" the information and must be protected. How insulting! Second, you are deciding that the other person can't or won't make the "right" (or at least YOUR idea of right) decision if given the information, so you take away their choices in an attempt to control the situation. What you are doing is deciding that YOUR idea of what the "right" thing to do is better than your spouses...which is a terribly disrespectful judgement.<p>So what you are saying is that you are withholding information about your pain and your needs because he can't handle it or he won't make the choices that you want him to.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>in the throws of my pain and anguish he asked if he could deal with all this-meaning us and marriage-after 3 months, so he could concentrate on his job and the dealership. can you imagine getting this all dumped on you, wanting to die, and being diagnosed with post traumatic stress and having your husband say flat out his situation is just more important? well i agreed. <hr></blockquote><p>Ok. Your husband was very honest with you. He flat out told you that your pain, your needs and your marriage was not as important to him as his job/career/dealership. You are absolutely not a victim here. He told you what his priorities are, and you agreed to be put lower on his list than you deserved. So the blame for that lies squarely at your own feet. You didn't honor or respect yourself in this decision...so why should he?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>that is were my deadline came from. i decided to give him 5 months to see if he would finally start to deal with this or just bury it, which is what he would do to solve this.<hr></blockquote><p>So instead of practicing radical honesty, you are playing games of dishonesty and manipulation. Why didn't you just flat out ask him what his plan was after three months for recovery of your relationship? Why did you agree to wait for three months without a set plan for recovery afterwards?<p>You could have said, "H, what do you plan to do to help us recover after three months?" And if his plan was not something that you could live with....then you could have been moving forward in whatever direction you needed to do to take care of yourself, rather than sitting in painful limbo.<p>You are putting yourself through pain and agony by making choices like these.<p>What are you afraid of? Your decisions, clearly, are being made by your Fear. Have you done any journaling about your fears and talking back to them? Fear based decisions are never good ones.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i havent said i was gonna act on deadline, just that this treatment of me hasnt helped his cause. i will probably not bolt out the door just yet.<hr></blockquote><p>Your H makes a living as a salesman. To be a good salesman, you gotta be able to read people and know when they are ready to bolt. You don't think he already knows that you aren't going anywhere?<p>Why should he change what he is doing?<p>What you need to learn how to do is to: Say what you mean, mean what you say, and not say it mean.<p>Don't play games. Don't withold information. Treat him with respect - and more importantly, treat YOU with respect. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i have chosen not to discuss this with him as to not add further stress to him, he allready has health problems from the stress in his life. i back off by choice. <hr></blockquote><p>So you are choosing to withhold information, choosing not to tell him what your needs and pain are...and then you are pissed when he doesn't just automatically respond the way you expect him to?<p>Nikko - you put yourself in this situation and you set yourself up for this pain.<p>I also want to point out that by "protecting" him from your truths, you are enabling his selfish treatment of you. Enabling is defined as: Creating a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior.<p>In general people do not change until: The pain of staying-the-same becomes GREATER than the pain of change.<p>Well, your lack of respect for yourself, your dishonesty with your H and your doormathood is simply building pain and resentment in yourself (all because of YOUR choices) and simply creating an environment where your H doesn't need to change.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i will not back off forever though. i want a marriage that we are first, anything less is unnaceptable to me.
<hr></blockquote><p>Aaah but again, you haven't clued your H in on your timeline OR your needs. You haven't treated your own needs with respect.<p>In addition, the above sentence that you wrote just smacks of selfish demands.<p>You absolutely have the right to a marriage that puts the relationship first. You are completely justified in that need.<p>HOWEVER. And this is a huge however. You aren't allowed to demand that your H provide you with that.<p>You see, because then it becomes an issue of you demanding that your H adopt YOUR system of values - and that says that YOUR system is more "right".<p>Clearly your H doesn't share your need. So you can tell him that your need is not being met, but you can't demand that he meet it. It's a subtle difference - and again, I think I've said this to you several times - you really need to be talkign to Steve Harley. Don't give me the money situation - there's always money if it's important enough. This is your marriage you are talking about, your future and your life. It needs to be taken as a priority by YOUR actions first and foremost. Steve Harley can do the "bad guy" demands for you. He can outline to your H what he needs to be doing for you - whereas coming from you its a selfish demand.<p>So stop being a doormat. Doormats try to control everything out of fear, and thats exactly what you are doing.<p>Start treating yourself with respect first, and then start showing that respect to your H. Your first step would be by dropping the games and the lies, and putting every thing out in the open between the 2 of you.<p>I'm sure there is alot more I should or could add here, but at the moment, I've got a very dirty house that I really should be dealing with. This should be enough for you to work on digesting for now.

Nikko~~~ I bumped up an old post of mine "What did you expect?" .... take a look!<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

pepper-thank you i read it!<p>bramblerose-first off i am saving money for the harley's counseling. im also waiting for inc. tax refund to help with that. i will be doing counseling alone-he will not do it-and if i try to get him to wouldnt that be a demand?<p>as far as the decision about the 3 months- we made it together. he was in way over his head. i did not know he was trying to do this job promotion, he decided all this on his own. i was stuck in the situation at the time as was he.
since his three months was up i have been confronting situations as they come up and not avoiding them. and yes this may be a disr. judgement, but his idea of dealing with this is it will go away on its own.hes an avoider.<p>at the 3 month time i was withholding-no longer-look up the i shot the elephant thread-i withheld this time because i wanted to give myself time to calm down and think about it, not get nuts with anger on him,which i really havent done at all. i wanted to do it without lb's. calmly.<p>as far as being stupid to agreeing to the 3 months-YES i was stupid. am i sorry-YES. was i in shock and not knowing which way was upYES.<p>i have asked about his plan for recovery-he doesnt have one. he is letting me guide him. he is fine with that because he feels he has no need for a counselor. i wish he would go-because of this and other issues, but he wont. im stuck with what i have to work with and am trying my best.<p>as far as my needs-again look up my i shot the elephant. he has my en paper with him. he just doesnt act on them. i cant change that or demand anything i know that, i just wish...<p>as far as demanding what he is in our marriage-i know i cant do that. he is the only one that can change his behaviors. i cant make him-but i have learned what my boundries are. he either steps up or not-his choice, his decision. i cant change that. we had a big discussion on this-he is aware of how i feel.<p>i know you are busy with the house and i really do appreciate the time you have allready spent with me-i do have one more thing to ask...<p>he will be home at 6:30 tonight-help me with a plan of what to do?? i am so emotionally spent and tired right now i cant think straight. if you have the time i would really appreciate it.
i do value your help

Nikko,<p>I hope BR is able to get back to you, but in the meantime, I'll share how my session with my H went last night in case that is any help at all. I decided that my best approach was requesting reassurance about our agreement that that place will be out of lives permanently as of Tuesday.<p>He hemmed and hawed some, stating ties he still had: Money still owed, for which I stated I had stamps for that purpose (I explained that I already mail a payment there every month because we had to COBRA the insurance benefits--so that's a major trigger all by itself that I currently cannot eliminate); Equipment discounts that he can only get there; Thought I enjoyed going there and watching him; Thought I enjoyed being with him.<p>I told him I did enjoy being with him and watching him, but I very much hate being in the jaws of the beast. I told him *I* violated POJA by agreeing to it in the first place, that I had damaged the R by doing so and that it has been a lesson to me of how mandatory POJA is. I told him that I knew it was a bottom line for me when I made the agreement, and agreeing to keep it in our lives until now only gave him mixed messages, and all the pain involved in going there for months has resulted in withdrawals from my Love Bank.<p>I told him I had no business agreeing to what we agreed to because I knew I could never enthusiastically agree to keeping that place in our lives, that I will never feel safe and protected as long as it is, and that the result of not feeling safe and protected is that intimacy is impossible. I said that the fact that I cannot be in a R where I don't feel safe and protected just is, and since I know it, he should know it.<p>I made one DR when I said I was frustrated because to me, eliminating the features of the A is Basic Infidelity 101. But I think I did okay with the rest of it. I tried to stick with what I saw as MY failures and responsibilities and with what WAS.<p>Part of what helped me was I read some of the book, Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay, before he came to bed. The author said that we all have bottom lines and sometimes don't know what they are until we "discover" them when our partner crosses them. But sometimes we KNOW our bottom line, and she pointed out the unfairness of our partner not knowing it. I realized that the entire OW's workplace situation was MY responsibility. I knew that was a bottom line for me and I ENCOURAGED him to trample all over it. I had SET HIM UP.<p>He never said much during my disclosure and didn't specifically state that he would never go there again after Tuesday, but I stuck with what I've been doing lately and just said what I needed to say and then left it alone.<p>Except for that one DR, I feel that I'm getting somewhere with learning how to deal with these things honestly and openly. Mostly, I got a measure of peace and some restoration of equilibrium from going through with it last night, so I hope you get the same. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

thank you conqueror-it did help. and good for you.<p>on top of all this, as if my head wasnt spinning enough, i just had a 2 hour conversation/disagreement with my lovely ex-husband. i cant get into it all-he just thinks like my 12 yr old, i should let 12yr old do and say whatever he wants-very disrespectfull stage right now-and i wont allow it. there is so much more but after all was said and done and he kept trying to blame me and my husband instead of getting 12yr old to take responsibility-i said your right-you have some very simple answers,and suggestions. i will have all his stuff packed by tomorrow-you guys can pick it up then.<p>he went grey(i have that effect on people lately), hemmed, hawed and made all kinds of excuses. so i told him when he was ready to try it 24-7 and always be there, not just when it is fun, then give me advice. (he wasnt giving advice-he was being disrespectful and know-it-all-ish) he has never had son for any length of time alone more than 24 hours. please walk in my shoes, i dare you!<p>anyway-suggestions on my other situation??? i swear if my head doesnt explode by tonight it will be a miracle!

bump-looking for bramblerose

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i will be doing counseling alone-he will not do it-and if i try to get him to wouldnt that be a demand?<hr></blockquote><p>An invitation is not a demand. A "join me or else" is a demand. So invite him to join you. If he says no, accept it, but don't deny yourself help.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as far as the decision about the 3 months- we made it together. he was in way over his head. i did not know he was trying to do this job promotion, he decided all this on his own. i was stuck in the situation at the time as was he.<hr></blockquote><p>Look, the only person who is responsible for your choices is you. You weren't strong armed or forced into making the choices that you did. Yes, he may have been guilty of not disclosing exactly how over his head he was - but, the fact remains that he did tell you that his job was more important. This lack of respect for you, lack of remorse for what he did to you, was "ok'd" by you when you accepted a spot lower on his list of priorities than you deserve.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>since his three months was up i have been confronting situations as they come up and not avoiding them.<hr></blockquote><p>That's fine - you shouldn't be avoiding difficulties. It's all in how you do the confronting though...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>and yes this may be a disr. judgement, but his idea of dealing with this is it will go away on its own. hes an avoider.<hr></blockquote><p>It's not a disrespectful judgement to recognize that this is the reality of who he is, and how he deals with difficulty.<p>The problem arises when you try to change who he is. Trying to manipulate him into changing is disrespectful and selfish, because it says: "Your way of handling things is wrong, and mine is right - change to suit me."<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>at the 3 month time i was withholding-no longer-look up the i shot the elephant thread-i withheld this time because i wanted to give myself time to calm down and think about it, not get nuts with anger on him,which i really havent done at all. i wanted to do it without lb's. calmly.<hr></blockquote><p>Thats fine - you decided to give yourself time to make a decision and choose an action - nothing wrong with that.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as far as being stupid to agreeing to the 3 months-YES i was stupid. am i sorry-YES. was i in shock and not knowing which way was upYES.<hr></blockquote><p>I didn't say you were stupid. I simply said you made a certain choice, and now you are reaping the consequences of that choice. That's why I talked about your pity pot earlier. You aren't a victim, you chose this situation.<p>I don't think you are stupid. I think that you made a decision in a very bad frame of mind - hurt and fear are always bad guides.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i have asked about his plan for recovery-he doesnt have one. he is letting me guide him. he is fine with that because he feels he has no need for a counselor.<hr></blockquote><p>Ok - this is where I am going to say that you are NOT in recovery. Your H is not taking responsiblity for HIS part of your marriage. You should not allow yourself to be in a "guiding" position. You and your H are a team - equals. You should not be taking on his responsiblity - again, its called enabling. You are creating a comfortable environment for him to continue avoiding. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>i wish he would go-because of this and other issues, but he wont. im stuck with what i have to work with and am trying my best.<hr></blockquote><p>What you want, and who he is are completely 2 different things. As long as you are "trying your best" to make these 2 incompatible things match, you are going to be angry, hurt and frustrated.<p>You've got to start dealing with the reality that exists, not with the reality that you wish was.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>as far as my needs-again look up my i shot the elephant. he has my en paper with him. he just doesnt act on them. i cant change that or demand anything i know that, i just wish...<hr></blockquote><p>So, you communicated to him your needs. He's not interested. Part of the reason that he isn't is because you don't treat yourself with respect or treat yourself as valuable and important. You are waiting for HIM to do that, and getting angry and resentful when this does not occur. Unfortunately, he isn't going to recognize your value until you recognize it for yourself.<p>Wishing isn't going to change this. The fact of the matter is that you are not in recovery, he is not taking responsiblity, he is not remorseful, and you are allowing him to remain comfortable while treating you quite disrespectfully. I mean seriously, think about it. He asked you if it was ok for him to treat you less than important, and you said YES! And yet, you are angry when he does exactly what you agreed to.<p>What you need to think very hard about is what you need. I do NOT mean think about what you want him to do for you. Think about what do you need for yourself in a relationship. <p>Then make a plan. Then fill him in on your plan - no demands, no threats.<p>Then carry it out.<p>Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.<p>I loved my husband. I did not want to be divorced. But what I had to do was learn that he was his own person, with the right to make his own choices. I learned that I deserved love, respect, and to have my needs met. And I had to face the fact that my H was NOT going to meet them. I had to stop trying to get him to do so, and I had to stop demanding that he do so. When I quit trying to manipulate outcomes, and started accepting reality and making reality based choices - I started taking care of myself. THEN I was someone that my H wanted to be with. When he realized that he was not going to be comfortable with me out of his life, then he became interested in taking responsiblity and doing what it would take to earn back my love and trust. <p>I did NOT say: Do what I want, or I'll divorce you.<p>I said: You are not someone that I can continue sharing my life with. I need to be apart from you because I need respect, honest, openess and love.<p>And then I quietly went about doing what I had to do to take care of me.<p>THATS when he came up with a plan (but not until the day before our first court date). Notice I am NOT suggesting that you divorce him to get his attention. <p>But I do think you need to start taking responsiblity for your own needs. Stop taking responsiblity for your H's stuff. Stop trying to change him and stop making him comfortable treating you disrespectfully.<p>Learn to love YOU. Learn what you want, what you need and what you deserve. None of this should involve getting your H to change.<p>I hope this helps.

ps to bramblerose-i reread the thread. i still believe in what i am doing. i agreed to the three months stupidly, but i kept my word. my word means something to me. i also agreed to this in the first two weeks after d-day-dont remember when exactly, i was in shock. i would like to know that everything you said and did in the first few weeks was exactly the right thing. and this was also 2 weeks prior to me reading saa and finding this site. i made a mistake in allowing this, but i agreed and kept my word.

Nikko, you seem to think that I am taking you to task for your decision.<p>I'm not - not really.<p>I'm taking you to task for something far more serious, and that is your disrespect of self.<p>I did lots of things wrong. Fortunately I learned how to do things right, which is why my marriage is truely recovered.<p>If you want what I have, then do what I did.<p>You can disagree. That's ok, and you might find different answers.<p>And, btw, I personally don't think that there is anything wrong with keeping your word once you have given your promise...and in fact it is admirable. HOWEVER, I don't think it was based on honor, I think it was based on fear of what your H would do if you did not.<p>And there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with going to your H and saying: I made that promise under a great deal of emotional stress - and I should not have made that promise.<p>Anyway, its up to you to choose your path. Just realize that you are a valuable, worthy, deserving person who has the right to be treated with respect by EVERYONE including yourself.

we had our conversation-im not gonna get into it just yet, im still processing it all. i do feel better about standing up for me. i will address the not putting us first in a few days. my little one is very excited about mothers day and i dont want to be all stressed out for him or me. thank you all for the advice.<p>ps to bramble- for a while i lost my self confidence-never my self respect. i believe there is a big difference. i may have made decisions out of fear and shock, the wrong ones, but i am working on righting them now.
i have always been a very self confident person, and always surrounded myself with people who understood the meaning of respect. my husband was one of them. honor was everything to him, and respect. i guess i am putting up with a few things i shouldnt to give him time to heal. he has some very deep wounds to his soul. i cant go into it hear-hubby told me in confidence. i guess it is a choice we all make as to what we will allow and why, i feel i have a reason, and i will give him the benifit of the doubt for now. he knows i will not live like this forever.

Hi Nikko ~<p>Well I guess that you and I define respect pretty differently. Personally I think the problem is that when we depend on others surrounding us for our own sense of self-respect, we are only on borrowed time.<p>But anyway, I have noticed that your tone has definitely changed from the start to the end of the thread. You and I may disagree - but you definitely sound much stronger and much less a victim now than when you started this thread.<p>So good for you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Nikko,<p>Glad to hear you have some relief. I have THE answer for the 12yo problem:<p>www.backincontrol.com<p>I believe Mr. Bodenhamer has the best parenting plan for problem adolescents that I have ever found. I have applied a lot of what I learned from him to my marital situation as well. The sponging and deflecting techniques I've posted here are from him. The solution is really very simple once you grasp the basic concepts. Most of us already know them, but he gives a great framework to help us apply them in the most effective way. Cannot recommend his books highly enough. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You really will feel back in control.

dear bramble-yes i am more in controll of my feelings now-which is why i have waited to address this whole issue-i feel going off half-cocked with an attitude would never help anything. so i sit back and let myself get through whatever i need to then address the issue. i have never screamed and yelled at my husband, not even through this, and i dont intend to start now. i am stronger and hopefully wiser(thanks to you and others) and will address what i need to in me and then with husband.<p>conqueror-thank you so much for the link-i will go there now. thank you.