Ok when is enough a enough?? WH had affair for 8 months - told me about it 10/02 - said it was over - 11/02 still contact after that none.. Then we were gonna try to make it work - but he never really participated and I only turned into a nontrusting, snooping person...Conflict day in and day out - though good days but few and far between - he moved out a couple of times.. Says he wants a divorce because I will never get over this etc.. Not sure he is in love with me - Ok so then about two weeks ago I got his code to his cell phone and there were 4 messages from the lady next door - (she was not the first OW) - They were all in the same afternoon and the 4th one said- Hi hon its me thought we were gonna hook up but I guess we are going to but I wanted to.. I lost it.. He not only did it once but he did it twice - I damn near killed her and him but they say they were just talking - I am still not sure what to believe.. Then I asked him to move out for three months because he go back and forth from him wanting a divorce because I always over react to everything.. Everyone is telling me stuff about my H and now this neighbor who we will refer to as OW2 but H says they were just friends talking about our situation.. there is people who saw them out to lunch .. Hours after a party they were missing etc.. Lots of circumstances.. So he has left for 3 months because I think we need to figure out if we are getting a divorce or are we gonna make it work.. So last night OW2 was not home and I tried to contact H about the girls (9 & 12) - He didn't answer phone and I left a message.. He called back on his way back to where he is living at 9:30 - as he calls she pulls into driveway - he says he is at his brothers house for dinner.. So ok - this I talk to his brother and he says he hasn't talked tohim he tried to get him last night but he didn't call back.. I confront - I know bad but hey - He says he told brother to lie to me because he didn't want me to think he was out having a good time.. Then this morning he says he is done wants a divorce because I keep flying off the handle?? and he will never be able to live in the neighborhood again.. I can't take the fact that he wants a divorce because of the way I am handling what he did to me.. Do I just let it go - or continue on with the 3 months.. the general opinion is that I am idiot because the truth is there I just can't admit it is true...I have hired a PI for this coming week to see if it is really going on or not.. HELP

I really feel your pain. There is nothing worse than loving and not being loved.<p>In my humble opinion:
I think you need to take a step back and ask what it is you want out of life. You need to ask yourself "Why do I want H back?". Write down somewhere the reasons and keep them for a rainy day. This is a very important question because the road ahead is long and hard.<p>I am not sure if you have started applying the principles of Dr. Harley. The book SAA is a life savor. From the sounds of it, you have moved to Plan B. Did you try Plan A before Plan B? Right now is the memory your H have of you is you being irrational or is it a memory where you were trying to show him that you are working on yourself and trying to be a better person. I really cannot say much more until I know if you understand the principles of Plan A and Plan B and whether or not you have applied these principles. Let me know so that I can respond better.

Dreamland- I have applied Plan A but I was never really good at it because I always have the need to know what is going on.. And he has been lying to me about everything from going to the car wash to what he had for lunch..I am not sure if he knows fact from fiction.. We are definately in Plan B - now and I tried to just not talk at all but when he comes to pick up the kids etc. he will walk in and make snide remarks like do you think you can spare a soda etc??/ I don't want any of this I don't know what happened in the first place, I don't know and that is just most of my problem... I feel like there is big sign on my head - that says lie to her she cannot handle the truth.. he doesn't know what he wants - that is why divorce is hard for me and yes I am not sure at this point why I want or need him.. It is kind of like I am at point A and I know I need to get to point B but I am afraid.. And I also have a problem with if he did this all to me why do I have to be the one to say it is over.. He has no guts....

I'm in the same situation with my wife where the lies, her asking for a divorce, except she admits she wants to be with the other person. I have made sure I let her know that I have had enough of the lies, and for a while when she lied told her exactly how simple it was to tell when she wasn't telling the truth. NOw she dosen't talk a whole lot and any questions I ask her a pointed directly to her affair. I think you need to set a time frame in your mind to examine what you want for the future. I have done that and said I will make a decision on our marriage based on what happens over that time frame. Over the last few weeks she has done everything possible to convince me that divorce is the right thing to do. At the same time, there is still another month for me to decide from my point of view what I want out of life. I fully recognize that if I still want her and she dosen't want me after that time frame, that I will have to decide to try and hold on longer or just cut the ties and divorce. In the last few weeks it has given me the chance to evaluate my life as it may be with five kids over the next few years. I am scared that I will not be able to find another partner in my present situation. I am scared that I will not be able to handle it financially, mentally, keep my job and raise a family. Overall I have gone through some fairly rough times and made it through them, therefore a part of me knows the future will work. The time we are spending apart is giving me time to evaluate my life, what things I need to change, and how I will face the future. I think telling him you want three months to see where you both want to go with the relationship is a good thing. You must let him know that he needs to stop the bull&*@% and start telling you the truth when you do talk. For your sake you need to let him go for this time, and focus on yourself. If he loves you, and realizes his mistake he will come back. He may love you, but never realize his mistakes, and unfortunately things amy come to a end. Just focus on yourself, don't spend the time and money on the PI, unless you will need the evidence in court. You already know what is going on, spouses don't start lieing and sneaking around for many reasons except affairs or drugs, a PI isn't going to tell you anything different.

IMHO:<p>As I have been told in the past in this forum, "You have got to loose your WS to keep them." This is very true. Anything the slightest bit negative will cause a real LB. We have got to try to come to grips with our situations and deal with the fact that we may never have our WS's back. Assume whether they are living with you or not that they have already left you and now you are just friends, because in reality this is indeed what has happen. They have broken their vows with us and we are no longer their S until they totally recommit to us.<p>Easier said then done of course, but this kind of thinking and mind set helps me considerably. If you are a Christian turn all this over to God and try to truly forgive for past, present, and future lies and hurtful actions. Love your WS like God loves us, unconditional. <p>Enjoy life and try to make yourself a better person from all of this. Remember that there is a big world out there with plenty of attractive free people that would treat us so much better than we are being treated.<p>Well I can say all of this, but I have real struggles with this myself. Last night I am sure my wife saw him, and it pains me not to say or do anything about it and totally ignore it. I know that this is what it will take to win her back. I have to be more positive than the OM. Any tiny bit a negative and she will look at the OM as a better choice.<p>Good luck and forget all this crap and have a good Mother's day weekend. You have earned it.

Lost in Space thank you for the reply - but see I do need to spend the money on the PI because I don't know for sure about the OW2 who lives next door and it is driving me crazy.. he admitted to the first one but this one he says there is nothing going on - but then why do I feel so stupid and everyone around me thinks I am an idiot because something is going on... So for my sanity I just need to know if anything is really going on or it is all just circumstantial... You know.. I have set the three month thing - but there are days when I think why am I wasting my time (like today) it is over - why are we all still living in limbo - And like you I wonder will there be anyone else, will I ever want anyoneelse.. Can I make it on my own?? Do I want to make it without him??? I am just not sure what I am afraid of.. I wish that I could just keep my mouth shut... I am going to try but it is the unknown that keeps freaking me out - he says I am digging for crap when in reality everytime I turn around something is being handed to me on a silver platter and I tend to loose - Good luck to you

I'm in so much pain today...husband and I are at crossed-purposes...I've Plan A'd for four months, Steve H. told me it was time to ask H to leave. H says he wants more time to transition out of the relationship with OW but I know he lies to her about our time together and he asks me to put myself in her place...how difficult it is for OW knowing that my husband is living in the same house with me. Most days I think he's lost his mind...He wants me to be patient...he wants to get reconnected to our girls whom he has neglected for four months...HE refuses to talk with Steve H. anymore because he tells H he must give up OW in order for our marriage to work and H is not willing to do that right now. I've given him all that I can give including meeting his most important emotional need for sex...it was very difficult to do, thinking about where he had been the previous week. The pain is so great when you open yourself up to the physical and your H wants you out of the room so he can call OW. I think I'm having some kind of breakdown today it feels so strange to be walking around in a normal world when my life is so screwed up. I can actually understand why people take their lives in a situation like this..I feel so hopeless today but I have my girls who need me. Can anyone give advise about continuing on with this bizaare arrangement? Husband wants more time to what? string me along while he romances OW over the phone and thru the e-mail? He hasn't made any plans to go see her ( he was going every other weekend for 4 months) He says I should take that as a positive sign and not be upset so easily while he continues telling OW how much he loves and needs her.... he needs to reassure her and he conveniently leaves out the details of our relationship so as not to distress her. Meanwhile I'm supposed to handle it all with a smile on my face. AND I need to make myself more interesting to my H because OW is so far superior to me in so many ways. Oh God I need help badly.
Wintergal

Dreamland - I read your thread and that must be hard wondering if your wife saw him - but unlike you I can only speculate because I have no real evidence - and you have a receipt with the hour printed... Which coffee is ok - but let me tell you my husband has been drinking an awful lot of coffee lately to meet these other woman.. Sometimes I think this is all in my mind and I am over reacting usually just after I have spoken to him - he gets me all confused and I start thinking that this is me.. When I know in my mind somewhere off in the far corners - that he created this situation and he in a sense created me... this mothers day - he is taking my kids out .. Nice huh??/ I am just gonna spend the day alone - hopefully I won't be to down.. I am going to try and move on.. At least in my mind until I have to face reality and do it for real.. I am well aware of the if you love something set it free it will come back - but I guess I am just afraid if I set it free it will be overjoyed and run like hell..... thank you

Wintergal - I am not one for advice but I know your pain.. It must be hard knowing that your husband is comparing you to the OW -but not knowing if there really is another is hard.. I don't know what to say except that sadprincess always tells me that this is a roller coaster ride if you are having a bad day then another good day will be around the corner - I also feel like I am living in a dream land and I am subject to major and minor breakdowns on a daily basis.. you must be strong for your girls... I try for mine - but they most of the time think mommy is confused.. Good luck

Maw64 - The only question I would ask you about the PI to investigate his potential affair with the woman next door is, what happens if you find out he is having an affair with her? Then what do you do if you hear he is having an affair with the woman on the other side of your home? Do you see where I am coming from, spending time and money to find these things out could only cause you considerable more grief, and put you in a place where what you find out will hurt you more. I do believe you will find out on your own soon enough. I think you have to say to your not going to focus on him at all for now. What he is doing, and telling you is all suspect. Now easier said then done, but the part you can do is when you start to question where he is what he is doing, before you get to the point that you react and do something, ask yourself what you will get from finding out or asking the question. I have been somewhat sucessful in that approach, but still find I ask the older kids what their mom is up to when they talk to her, if they know anything about what she is going to do next with her life, etc. They always give me limited feedback, and I always let it go at that point. Over the last two months I have gone from wanting to know every step she made to really focusing on myself and the kids. I still think about her for around 50% of the day or more, but usually those thoughts go to how and why questions as I look back over our marriage. In your last comment to Dreamland I got a kick out of the comment
"I am well aware of the if you love something set it free it will come back - but I guess I am just afraid if I set it free it will be overjoyed and run like hell....."
A true thing to think, and when your going through this pain, it sure isn't fair. Everyone says that these things make us stronger, and if our relationship survives or if we move on and meet someone else it will be better then ever. I hope their right as if not I got their names and I'm going to come back and let them know they were full of horse #$^&. They also say people that do this type of thing to their family get their fair share of pain in time. I don't know if they are capable of having pain, but only time will tell. Hang in their, life is worth it.

Lost in Space - thanks for the chuckle I really didn't even realize how funny it sounded when I wrote I am afraid he will be overjoyed and run like hell but I guess that is how I feel.. I know this is hard for him dealing with me constantly but he made the situation - and yes I always react before I think I really need to work on that.. BIG TIME>> I think knowing once and for all if something is going on will make me feel better you know peace of mind - maybe in my heart I am hoping he finds nothing so I can say to everyone - well he really is telling the truth or if he is doing something then I will know once and for all and I can continue on with my life - And I am with you on the beat the crap out of everyone who says there is someone else out there thing.. That is easy for them to say - they are married... I am realistic I realize that what I have now is nothing but I still think that after almost 15 years of marriage and 19 years of being together and two beautiful daughters that we can rebuild something but in my case sooner or later that may just be to painful to do.... thank you for your advice....

You are in a tougher palce if he indicates nothing is going on but you have reason to believe something is. In that case I can understand you wanting to know. When you do find out, be it good or bad I hope you can handle that situation and deal with it alone. If he owned up to previous affairs and did no show any committment to you after the previous relatiuonship in helping to believe it would not happen again, then your level of trust in him is most likely still at a all time low. He is the only one that can rebuild that trust, and that is through communication with you. I know what you feel about so many years of being together, and then wham, a blind sided head shot(affair). Same situation in my case, and I spend everyday wondering how we went from having what I considered a few problems in which we needed to make some changes(both of us) to where things are now. Everyday a aprt of me says that she will look at what we had the good and the bad, adn recognize that with some changes in both our lives we could have something better. Unfortunately she seems to be in a different world, and shows no hope of this. Different strokes for different folks. Got to go for a few hours now, tow sick kids and doctors, I/m starting to get the hang of this fulltime parenting, as a man I will admit going to work alot of days seemed easier, but I also did help out when my wife was here. Be back on latter tonight. Have a good day, and dammit find something funny to watch or something fun to do, even of it is throwing darts (I won't say at who's picture).

Lost in Space - thank you - you don't know the half of it we didn't even have any problems - sex good, got along great, no fights - the only problem I had was when he wanted to go out and party and not put us his family first... He on the other hand is saying that he hasn't been happy for ten years - I honestly do not know who this person is anymore - that is why I go from ok this is enough to oh my god I have to save him from himself which is what I have been doing since October but he hasn't done anything.. He in the beginning would go out like right after he told me and say he would be home at 9 and sit there until 9:30 so I would start to freak out... just to test me.. He expects me to just trust him overnight and just when I was starting to trust again - I got the messages from the neighbor now I don't know about you but I know I don't call the neighbors husbands on their cell phones behind there wifes back and talk about hooking up.. Now I want to beleive that it is all innocent but everyone tells me I a compelte idiot.... And I just need to prove to myself.. I think your wife is very lucky to have a man at home willing to take such and active part in the lives of their children - I have basically raised mine by myself.. That is why sometimes I wonder what do I really need him for??? It may just be the pain or the reality of the situation that I don't want to deal with... talk to you later...

The unigue part of your comments are that in the same but opposite way that was my realtionship with my wife. Over the last five to ten years my focus went from going out to the bars, to spending and doing things with my family. We had lots of problems with one kid, and for about a year could not even both be out of the house at the same time when he wasn't in school. I believe she took alot of this as lack of interest in her, but it wasn't. She just seemed to want to go to the bar all the time. Then by the end of the night she would be drunk, and start dancing with guys, and getting flirtacious. I could have done the same, but did not feel right about doing that to her. I talked to her and let her know that it bothered me, she accused me of being jealous. Don't know maybee it was to a certain degree, but when your wife of ten years sits on another guys lap, or puts her arm around him, and only does these things when she is drunk, it is going to cause some problems. A number of times she would not do anything overly jealousy producing, but I just seemed to be aware of the potential, and it wrecked the night. I know part of it was my issue and part was hers. Over the last year she started wanting to go to the bar with her friends all the time, started dressing younger, and eventually ended up where she is. Over the last year I started to see a counsellor to determine if I was a jealous person, or if my feelings were grounded. I have always loved to spend time with the family, and when I suggested we do something as a family she eventually got to the point where she was against it. If I suggested we do something as couple she did not seem to have much interest unless it involved going to the bar at some point. Due to these reasons, I also am at the point that I must decide if suddenly things changed direction, if things could change for both of us. By the time you hit your mid thirties, I think you should still be going out and having fun once in a while. You should be able to do these things as a couple of on your own. If the only way my spouse can enjoy life is by going to the bar and getting drunk, I don't think that is the way I want to spend the rest of my married life. I do know where you are coming from there, and it is a tough situation when you both have different priorities, especially if they are a long ways apart. For the sake of yourself and your kids, I think your priorities are the right ones, and if you can stick to them, do what is right for you and the kids, you will make it through this. Talk to you latter, doctors office was to full and the grade eleven girl had classes, got to go back now. The fun never stops.

Time to bump.

Good morning Lost in Space - and yes you are correct I believe what happened in my marriage is that I grew up and he didn't.. He does not think that I ever want to have fun.. We are both 37 and basically I don't think it is fun having to sit at a bar stool all of the time.. I mean really.. I have two beautiful girls who are fun to be with.. Why the urge to go out and party all of the time.. If you want a drink have it at home with your family at a barbecue or playing games or something.. My brother in law came over last nite he was for the last ten years my husbands best friend and they don't even talk - he told me face it he is not coming home.. If I did this to my wife (my sister) and I wanted to be forgiven I would be kissing her butt - and he has never even shown any kind of sympathy.. I guess most of my problem now is facing the fact that it is probably mostly over.. And that not once but twice he has been with OW - and the last one is my neighbor who is proceeding with her own divorce.. I do not want this woman near my children ever... I know that I will never be able to deal with that.. But hopefully I will have a good day.. I am going to my neices play then my husband is suppose to pick up my youngest daughter and bring her home from a birthday party.. Here is to hoping that he will drop her off in the driveway....

It's amazing that I see so many similarities in my own situation with with my. A sister that she talked to every day, she won't have anything to do with. My wife is taking the kids today to meet their new "dad" as I refered to her about him. I was so pissed off yesterday afternoon when I found out what she was doing today. I told her just stay away from anywhere I am, and don't be groping this new guy in front of the kids. I know splitting apart and having the kids meet any new partners for either parent is a fact of life, but with the present situation, I hate everything about it. Oh well, I'm not as pissed this morning as I was yesterday, until "they" show up at the door to pickup the kids. I do not know your husband at all, but sure hope he has enough brains left to stay away from the neighbour, for your sake and the kids sake. I don't understand how a person you could love, adn that you believed loved you, could completely lose all respect for your feelings and emotions. In my situation this is one of the toughest parts I have had lately. As far as the bar seen, I don't know if they ever do growup, ro if they just end up as a sixty year old drunk that is drunk on a bar stool by 2:00 in the afternoon. I guess that is one positive thing, if my wife continue to go the direction she is presently, by the age of sixty I would not want to be sitting next to her on a bar stool. I would rather look back on my life and have memories of a number of other things. I'm a hockey fan, so "keep your stick on the ice".Talk to you latter, let me know how the day went.

Lost in Space - huge decisions in my life today.. Kind of like I have taken charge.. Someone told me more stuff about my husband and OW #1 from last year sometime and he denied it of course.. So basically I said well everyone in the world must be lying to me except you right??? And he said you know this isn't going to work because you are never gonna trust me ETC.. You know my fault again right??? So at that point I just decided you know OK enough is enough - you want a divorce you want to sell the house fine lets do it.. I also told him that I loved him, I have no idea what happened here - I may never know but I am through...We are slowly killing each other and I can't take it.. So we are going to sell the house, pay off all of the bills, split the difference - try to find each of us someplace else to live - and I told him when all is said and done - We can file for divorce - YOu know somewhere in my mind I guess I am hoping that he will wake up and realize what a huge mistake he is making - but I don't think that is ever happening.. I still want the PI so I can see if he really is seeing the neighbor.. But I told him if he was seeing her and planned on staying with her that I would make his life a living hell until the day he dies and he says don't you think I realize that.. So who knows.. But I am sure you are mad about meeting the new Dad that is just not right.. I have spoken to my husband about that - because I told him in no uncertain terms did I want him to parade girlfriend after girlfriend in front of my children - and I think he understands that now anyways...Hopefully he won't change his mind.. I don't know - it just all sucks.. My friend just stopped by and she told me I need to go on my own with my kids and find out who I am - I don't know who I am - I have been someones Mom and wife for so long.. I have no self esteem and I have lost my identity... Where to find it??/ How old are your kids??? What state do you live in?? I am guessing you are around my age because you said mid thirties - though I know I am basically late thirties.. But it is scary the prospect of the unknown.. You know though I have realized through all of this - I have alot of friends some that I have neglected for way to long.. I am not doing that anymore.. I am going forward - now I just need to stop shaking and smile.. Maybe then he will realize what he is giving up.. Talk to you later...

You had a tougher day then I did. Quickly I left my wife the same message that you did, that she had best be keeping her distance from this guy in front of the kids, no groping, kissing, hugging or any of that s%$#. I don't think she will jump from guy to guy, she is to dependant on any one man, and she cannot handle being on her own for any amount of time. Therefore she will do everything to make the realtionship work, since she has thrown in the towel on ours.
I really like what your friend said about this is now your time to discover who you are. Over the next while there will be enough other legal wranglings, adn other buls%$# going on that I'm sure you won't be looking for another relationship immediately. Just to let you knwo how I have approached the next while since my wife asked me for a divorce.
I told her I would not give her a divorce at present, I said I will set a time frame in my mind to make my decision. This gives me the time to calm down, and make the decision clear of her and any conflict. At the same time it gives me the time to see what she does with her life knowing that her actions will speak to my choices. I also figure since I more or leas beleive it will lead to a divorce I will start to examine what I want out of my life. I went for a walk tonight with my two little kids, and felt as relaxed as I have in a long time, it was kind of neat. I have set June 4th for the date I will decide, since that is the same date I go to court for custody of the kids. I presntly have temporary custody, but the judge wanted a time frame before he would rule on permanent custody. In total I decided to go two months from the time I first was going for divorce, and believe the time frame is appropriate. Never know she might have a big turnaround, for a moment I lost reality. If you take soem time for yourself, I beleive you will find your self esteem. You have to believe in yourself, look at what you have gone through so far, and how you are handling things. All the emotion is to be expected, but in your notes you seem to be together in your thinking, and I believe you have to be a strong person to be able to keep your thinking together through this, continue to raise the kids, and not go crazy. You know who you are, you described it in a number of your notes. You are a caring person, that puts family very high on her priority list, doesn't want to be a drunk on a barstool, and wants to get through this and get on with her life. Tell me your spouse has any of this going for him. If you get the time for yourself, you will determine what you want to do to keep yourself occupied as far as work and hobbies go. Overall the things that matter in life you know exactly who you are, and what you need in life. If we keep this note going we'll get to know who each of us is over time. A couple of questions for you "what is the first thing you want to do with your new life", might be to soon to ask, but give it a try. The first thing I need to do is to live life one day at a time, relax at work and around the kids. It is a big step especially when it gets thrown at you, in the side of the head.
My kids are, girl-17, girl-14, boy-13, boy-5, and girl-3. I am actually a Canadian from British Columbia, and am feeling pretty good tonight about myself, I hope one of these days I see you feeling the same way. If your going to shake with anger or sadness, try to remember as you said the good friends and your kids. Thanks for being here to talk to, it's alot easier when it is someone that's been through something you can relate to. Chris

By the way 34 turning 35 shortly, I believe you would be 37. Not sure if you wrote that in your note, or if your user name references the date of your birth 1964. Latter.