I'm just angry and hurt right now, and so the new thread.<p>it's a very, very strange feeling. Lots of closeness, good SF, even some decent R conversation. But, no "no contact" agreement, no remorse (to speak of). WW seems to want to talk about what's wrong with ME, not about the A (because she at least knows that the A isn't the problem, OM isn't the problem, our M is the problem, but uses that as an excuse NOT to shoot the ELEPHANT so we can WORK on the PROBLEM).<p>I do and I don't want to give up. All at the same time.<p>Crying again, dag-nabbit!

2long,<p>A lot of withdrawals are like the one you're going through. She will blame everything on you and take no blame herself. Very common at this stage, unfortunately.<p>You can help her by just being there. No LB's, no demands, just be there. You can't expect her to work on anything until she gets through this. I know it's hard, but it will pass.<p>Hang in there!<p>-HD

HD:<p>I'm going to try... Part of my anger is at myself. I'm pretty good at putting up the facade now. I guess I still am proud of my plan A to date. But I guess that pride had me thinking that I'd never have to do a plan B. And now I'm not so sure.<p>Hoping for signs of light through the bloody fog!

IMHO recovery (defined as Lots of closeness, good SF, even some decent R conversation) does not start UNTIL "no contact" is established. <p>Sometimes you gotta draw a line in the sand.

ILPM:<p>You're right.<p>But so as not to LB, I'm actually thinking of asking for her to give me some timeframes on when she expects to be able to end the "work related contact". I want not to LB, because I have the "chance" to do some work on some of the samples that would then be emailed to OM for his incorporation into the report... ...I'd like HIM to know that I'm helping my W get this thing done and why. AND I want her to feel comfortable with ME being "in the loop" with the contact, to keep it above board so long as it "must" continue.<p>Would love to say NO MORE, but that would be a demand, that she, her IC, and our MC would frown on.

2long,<p>She is trying to negotiate. Very normal for a withdrawan spouse. She is tryihg to see if she can talk you into a half measure so that she has kept all sides of this together. Just look at her and say: "You can do what you want, but no matter how bad you think I was, the OM is a problem in our marriage. What are you going to do about him."<p>I don't think you need to go further. It is her decision as to whether she keeps the OM in her life. It will be YOUR decision if you keep her in your life. She cannot justify two PA's with him and an 11 year relationship. In reality, anything she is say about you is ancient history, but her affair is not.<p>You have changed, you have tried to work on a marriage for which she broke the vows. You are NOT the bad guy here. You may have not been the worlds best H, but you did and do love her and you have never failed her.<p>2long, just ride with this. The negotiation is part of the withdrawal phase. Go read SAA and you will see it is part of it.<p>Hang in there. By the way, HD gave you very good advice. Pay attention to him.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

For example (I posted this to SC's thread a while ago, but it's so ridiculous that I thought I'd post it again in this thread):<p>Contact is for work, but I don't see what's said, and I can't imagine there isn't SOME personal (i.e., how are you, you poor thing) crap in the emails. <p>Like now: OM's sister didn't drop off CD at office a week ago last monday, because she couldn't find it on map and so sent it in the mail. Postage was wrong or some such, so it went back to OM's office, 2 states away. OM sends WRONG CD to W's office (3-yr old report). OM goes to take truck from work to pick up expensive <non-specified stuff> to return to work. Truck breaks down midway in nowhere with all this priceless stuff in it. No word from OM and no sign of CD. ...I AIN'T MAKING THIS $HIT UP!!! That's what I'm hearing, JUST THIS AM. <p>This would be hilarious if it weren't our 26.5-yr M at stake.

2long from a woman's point of view I see your W is still with you, still feeling close, still having good SF and still having relationship talks. This speaks volumes. I understand you are hurt and you must be frustrated by her refusal of no contact and not showing remorse. I'm sure it sucks that you feel she is blaming you but you have to understand the only other option is to take the blame upon herself and she's not ready to do that just yet.<p>Are you and she in counseling? If not have you suggested it to her? If so is it helping? I would nix the Plan B discussions, even the ones you are having with yourself. Stay firm in your Plan A and watch for signs, small as they may be and never forget that she has chosen to stay with YOU!

2long,<p>Upon further review, I would let her talk about what is wrong with you. Let her get it all out, keep asking if there isn't something else wrong with you. Ask her to make a list and write it down. Meanwhile don't defend yourself, don't make your list of what's wrong with her. Just keep asking what is wrong with you.<p>If she wants that tactic, then let her go that way. Eventually, she will run out of what is wrong with you. Then simply ask her why she has continue to be married to you for 11 years while being in love with OM. I think you see where I am going? She will probably say it was the children.<p>You can inform her that is not really an issue any longer, you can raise 15 yo and your D is on her own. So why is she staying?<p>The point is she needs to start recognizing what is RIGHT with you and WHY she would rather be with you than in contact with OM. It is her choice. You made a hugh choice already. You chose to try and salvage the marriage inspite of the fact that she isn't sorry for what she has done, does not seem too concerned that she broke her marriage vows.<p>2long you can argue with her, but it won't do any good. You can agree with her and you will live in constant doubt. Why not ask her how she will deal with the constant doubt about her love and honesty with him in her life. What is her solution?<p>It is her problem to solve 2long, and tell her that.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

TD:<p>"Are you and she in counseling?"<p>Yes. I actually have 2 ICs and she has 1 IC and we have an MC. Her IC and MC are at Kaiser, and they have sessions every ice age or so. I hate the infrequency. My W hates the frequency. <p>"If not have you suggested it to her? If so is it helping?"<p>It's helped me tremendously. I'd be useless on this board without the C (and the feedback from this board).

"I would nix the Plan B discussions, even the ones you are having with yourself."<p>I'd actually like to do this. Our life is way too complicated to figure out a plan B and fix all the stuff we have to fix TOO!<p>"Stay firm in your Plan A and watch for signs, small as they may be and never forget that she has chosen to stay with YOU!"<p>Yes. she even has pointed this out on a number of occaisions. What's so weird is the fog persisting and mixing her otherwise very logical thought processes. When she says something stupid, it's like I can look deep into her eyes and all I see is a solid block of cement where most people keep their brains.

ILPM:<p>It just hit me what you suggested: W/D the closeness etc until she agrees to no contact?<p>Sounds less like a plan A and more like a B to me.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
[QB]...WW seems to want to talk about what's wrong with ME, not about the A (because she at least knows that the A isn't the problem, OM isn't the problem, our M is the problem, but uses that as an excuse NOT to shoot the ELEPHANT so we can WORK on the PROBLEM).
QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I swear they are all on the same drugs!
This is uncanny! Where is the logic in that?
I wish we could maybe withdraw some testosterone, then MAYBE we could begin to understand some of this!<p>Great title to the thread, 2Long.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HurtingDeeply:
<strong>2long,<p>A lot of withdrawals are like the one you're going through. She will blame everything on you and take no blame herself. Very common at this stage, unfortunately.<p>You can help her by just being there. No LB's, no demands, just be there. You can't expect her to work on anything until she gets through this. I know it's hard, but it will pass.<p>Hang in there!<p>-HD</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What about before they even know they have to withdraw? Suggestions?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>2long,<p>Upon further review, I would let her talk about what is wrong with you. Let her get it all out, keep asking if there isn't something else wrong with you. Ask her to make a list and write it down. Meanwhile don't defend yourself, don't make your list of what's wrong with her. Just keep asking what is wrong with you.<p>If she wants that tactic, then let her go that way. Eventually, she will run out of what is wrong with you. Then simply ask her why she has continue to be married to you for 11 years while being in love with OM. I think you see where I am going? She will probably say it was the children.<p>You can inform her that is not really an issue any longer, you can raise 15 yo and your D is on her own. So why is she staying?<p>The point is she needs to start recognizing what is RIGHT with you and WHY she would rather be with you than in contact with OM. It is her choice. You made a hugh choice already. You chose to try and salvage the marriage inspite of the fact that she isn't sorry for what she has done, does not seem too concerned that she broke her marriage vows.<p>2long you can argue with her, but it won't do any good. You can agree with her and you will live in constant doubt. Why not ask her how she will deal with the constant doubt about her love and honesty with him in her life. What is her solution?<p>It is her problem to solve 2long, and tell her that.<p>God Bless,<p>JL</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JL, this sounds like a very, very sound plan. If you get a chance, maybe you'd jump over to my thread and give it a look-see? (Link below)

SC:<p>"What about before they even know they have to withdraw? Suggestions?"<p>Yeah. Suggestions???<p>Actually, my W seems to "know" she has to withdraw. I've offered to help by being there for her. She just keeps coming back to rationalizing into not having to withdraw by not having to stop contact...<p>I'm thinking of miming my way around the elephant when I walk in and out of our bedroom... See if she notices.

IMHO (for whatever its worth)<p>What does she have to gain by withdrawing from OM?<p>Right now she has a loving supportive H and a loving supportive OM. I can think of NO logical reason to withdraw.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"What about before they even know they have to withdraw? Suggestions?"<p>Yeah. Suggestions???<p>Actually, my W seems to "know" she has to withdraw. I've offered to help by being there for her. She just keeps coming back to rationalizing into not having to withdraw by not having to stop contact...<p>I'm thinking of miming my way around the elephant when I walk in and out of our bedroom... See if she notices.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm glad we can still somehow generate some humor from these situations, I guess it shows the resilience of the human spirit...<p>But I'm serious; I mean my WW says the A is over (when it's not), contact doesn't exist (when it does), so how in the world do you even begin to talk of withdrwal and helping her through it? I mean, following her reasoning would be something like "what withdrawl? Withdrawl already happened, let's get on with it!" or somehting like that.<p>Not to mention that since "it's over", there's just no need to talk about it at all...why would this affect us?" ... just no clue how to begin to break that one down!

SC:<p>"JL, this sounds like a very, very sound plan. If you get a chance, maybe you'd jump over to my thread and give it a look-see? (Link below)"<p>Bad idea!!! JL won't take so long as others to realize we're one and the same person!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>IMHO (for whatever its worth)<p>What does she have to gain by withdrawing from OM?<p>Right now she has a loving supportive H and a loving supportive OM. I can think of NO logical reason to withdraw.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm afraid you're right. It is only respect for her H and his feelings that would even begin to be a reason, and she's obviously not there yet.<p>Or maybe that it might be affecting the M? But how to get there?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"JL, this sounds like a very, very sound plan. If you get a chance, maybe you'd jump over to my thread and give it a look-see? (Link below)"<p>Bad idea!!! JL won't take so long as others to realize we're one and the same person!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>JL, 2Long just wants all your gems to himself! ;-)