I decided to change the title on my post because I would also like some ladies opinions on this as well.<p>My H had a revenge A on me and I am just not the jealous competitive type(although there was nothing to be jealous of)I guess it might have been different if she was more successful than me or a size 2. Then maybe I would feel the way he does, I don't know. What do you think ladies?

definitely unsure,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He feels like he won't be able to provide for me as well as OM could. It has never been a money issue for me at all. Do all men feel threatned by situations like this even after they know they have all of their wife's love and OM is
no longer a real threat? <hr></blockquote><p> Yes. It is as simple as that. I haven't read what other guys have told you. But the only real answer is YES. I will take it a step further and ask how you know he knows he has ALL your love. <p> Even further than that. I imagine OM will ALWAYS be percieved as some sort of threat by your H. Of course I do not know your situation so I may be off the mark on your H. But deep down I doubt it very much.<p> The OMs in my wifes affairs had a couple of different things going for them that I do/did not. For the most part I have let them go, meaning I do not dwell on those qualities like I used to. But when these things pop up(in my head mainly)they take me to the cellar. I get depressed, I ask myself how I can get those qualities, and pretty much I close up internally. I may get a bit short with W and even others I am around.<p> There is nothing anyone can do or say to make it all better. The only 'out' would have been for the As to have never happened. Well, the only 'out' within my marriage. I have found an 'out', but that is another story altogether.<p> The best advice I can give you is to be patient with H. Understand what he is dealing with. Be supportive of his actions. And show him he is very much appreciated for his efforts. Lastly do not let his compitition damage your recovery. <p> With time and love and patience, I am sure H will feel worthy enough to stop the compitition. <p> jd

Hi again DU,<p>Well, I have never been the jealous type. I was married to a professional musician and couldn't afford to be, altho, it's just not in my nature.<p>Some folks just aren't jealous I guess.<p>Now competitive, well, that's a different story. But only professionally and in sports. I love to compete with myself for betterment as well as my colleagues or peers. <p>I think I get it from my dad, he encouraged it when we were kids. <p>Jo

DU---<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>IMHO, I think the more the WS initiates, on their own steam, actions such as counseling appointments, ENQ exchange, marriage workshops/seminars, MB Reading ... etc. the more the BS sees they are sincere in their efforts to recover. <p>I believe that, in of itself, is a Love Bank deposit. At least it would be for me. <p>Jo</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
IMHO--Jo gets it!<p>To me as a BS, what Jo describes would be very valuable in recovery. The WS took the initiative in having an A...it would be extremely helpful in recovery for them to take the initiative to repair the marriage...<p>E

I am jeleous, and I do not think that this is bad but it is natural.<p>As I understand it, there are three dictionary definitions of jelous, and I am quoting from Webster:
1. Demanding complete devotion.
2. Suspicious of a rival or one to be believed to enjoy an advantage.
3. Vigilant<p>Why is it that we think that jeleousy is so bad? Can anyone here on this site read these definitions and say that they are not at least one of them.<p>1. I have demanded complete devotion from my wife. Is that a bad thing. This is a boundary in marriages and the spouse expects complete devotion and should not be embarassed if he feels this and occassional says it. I tell my wife I will not take a third person in our marriage. This is jelousy.
2. He** yes!!! I am suspicious of my WW, and I should be. She is still talking and seeing OM, and he has a complete advantage over me because he has my wifes heart in his hands. I have no power over this. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this feeling, and is completly natural even during recovery and long after. Remember all you WS's out there that this is a trust issue. It will take a long time to rebuild trust, probably as long as the A went on. If you lied for him for years, do you expect it to take a few months to get over it. It may take years of demonstration of complete honesty to reverse the distrust. Is this wrong or bad? No. It is completly natural and you should not make your S feel bad for being jeleous. He has earned the right to because of the A for as long as it takes. The vow has been broken, and he is now protecting himself from additional pain.
3. Vigilant is to be "alertly watchful especially to avoid danger." I am like this now and probably will be forever. I was naive and maybe will never be again. I do not think that this is bad either. I think that this will keep me on my toes and be proactive in our relationship.<p>So how is everyone defining jeolosy here, and why is any of this wrong? Why is it that we like to put such a negative meaning to this word?

I'm late to this thread. DU - there are some really good responses here and I wish you luck in your recovery. Does your H visit this forum?<p>I'll add my personal perspective to your original question just for completeness to this thread.<p>OM in my situation was a very close personal friend, as you can gather from my sig line. This means I may have had more knowledge of the OP than the average BS. In the very emotional stage just after discovery, yes, I felt threatened and felt a need to compete. But this didn't last long. As soon as I calmed down I was able to think rationally and because of my prior relationship with OM and his family, I was able to better assess the threat OM represented to me personally. <p>Simply put, HE was NO threat because he's such a shallow idiot. (And I'm not saying that just to be nice. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) Seriously, he and I are opposites. My XW and I used to privately comment about his immaturity and arrogance. I honestly believe he had an inferiority complex and was constantly trying to over compensate. His VCR flashes 12:00. What this meant to me early in the affair was that I KNEW his qualities, or lack thereof, were irrelevant. Because of this, I KNEW she wasn't running TO him, but was running FROM me and her pain. He was simply "any port in a storm." Bottom line, she could do a hell of a lot better. So, in a way, I had the benefit of knowing upfront that I wasn't really competing against him, I was competing against her decisions.<p>What I'm trying to say is that for me, my knowledge of OP gave me a leg up on understanding the pathology of affairs - that the OP rarely represents an "improvement." Yep, we're divorced and their relationship is still going strong two years later, so I could be completely wrong about my assessment. But I don't think so. I expect time will confirm my conclusions.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

The things my wife says to me makes me feel like I have to compete with the OM. She has told me in the past and recently some things that she dislikes about me. She then later explains that the OM does these things right. To me that sets up competition in me. I now feel I have to improve on these areas to win her over. I know that I am a better man than the OM in many ways and she even says that, but I do have weeknesses and I feel that these are under attack. The biggest competition to me is the sex part, even though this is all partially in my mind.<p>Well I hope that my situation help you understand the guy ego.

Let me give you my take on this.
The husband and the OM are definitely in competition from the moment the husband discovers the affair. It don't believe money has anything to do with this as far as the husband is concerned. It is part of the culture of manliness ,whatever that might be, that when someone does you down you HAVE to defend yourself.
Onwardandup, J.R., and Redhat (amongst others here) have done this and I believe are much better able to handle their situations as a result. Those husbands who haven't I believe are in serious trouble.
Let me turn the question round. Would you have still have had the affair if you knew that
when your husband found out he would confront OM
and might even have modified his good looks?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Resilient:
IMHO, I think the more the WS initiates, on their own steam, actions such as counseling appointments, ENQ exchange, marriage workshops/seminars, MB Reading ... etc. the more the BS sees they are sincere in their efforts to recover.
I believe that, in of itself, is a Love Bank deposit. At least it would be for me. <p>Jo<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I am back on this forum after 18 months away, because I am feeling so much hurt right now. We have been married 19 yrs and she had the affair 13 yrs ago and I found out about it 3 yrs ago this weekend coming up.<p>I have been reading a lot of other posts in the past few days and all I can say is that for some husbands, this pain and hurt your husband is feeling may never go away. I know nothing about the OM, not even his name, all I know is that my wife had an affair for a month with him to get even with me for not meeting her ENs (her words).<p>So, what his social status or monetary worth is is irrevilent to how I feel about the affair. What makes me feel better is when I see my wife working at our relationship (thus the quote above). When she stops making the effort, as is happening again now, the pain and hurt come back to me just as strong as in the beginning.<p>From what I have been reading, you may have to be always out front in the relationship, supporting him, working on the relationship with him, showing him how important your relationship really is.

Dreamland,<p>I think you do have a intersting point. I don't feel like jealousy is a bad trait, in some cases it is actually flattering. But my point is where do you draw the line(and I think there should be one drawn). Is it ok to be jealous of every other aspect of your spouses life besides yourself, IMHO no. In my situation my A only lasted six weeks, when my H had his revenge A it lasted 4 months. Not to mention he moved out of our house and in with OW, bringing our children to her home on the weekends he had them. Our kids never met the OM. When I first became involved with OM I told him I was seperated from my H almost divorced(so untrue), so he expected some turmoil plus I have 2 kids so that kind of explained not being able to see him alot plus he lives over 100 miles away. So in essence the OM did not knowingly get involved with a married woman, and knowing his personality I don't think he would have. The OW on the other hand lives 10 miles away, and knew that my H was married but didn't care. Since the "No Contact" letter(I told him the truth in the letter) was sent to OM he has respected our wishes and made no attempts to contact me. Versus OW who we have had to get a restraining order to keep her away from us.(that whole story is on my thread "Revenge?") My point here is I think my H has no grounds to be jealous anymore. I think the real reason he may be upset is that maybe the OM is a better person in my H eyes because I was the one who decieved him, OM really did nothing wrong. Maybe it really has nothing to do with money or material things. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I won't respect his healing time and still try to console him, I just think that it's been six months of recovery(of which the OW has been harrassing us for most of) can't we be done with the jealousy of the OM by now. Do you mean to tell me that if a BS is still jealous of OP 5 years later or as long as it takes into recovery and there has been no contact that their jealousy would still be justified? And in my case which spouse really has the right to feel more hurt or jealous?(I don't think either, I don't think it should be measured but my H does)I am just saying I don't think it is really a good thing to harbor these jealous feelings forever. I was very wrong, he was wrong, we have both been hurt we both know we are different people now and we both know we love each other more than ever so lets move forward. <p>DU

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by definitely unsure:
<strong>OM really did nothing wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>DU - maybe I missed something. Did OM know you were married?<p>If he did, he did PLENTY wrong.<p>I recommend in your discussions with your H that you clearly acknowledge that what took place was wrong on both sides. To do less than this says that you condone adultery. If I were your H, that would bother me A LOT.

Hi,
I am on the receiving end. For me it is a question of trust. The H has been hurt. You must expect the defences to go up. In this instance the defence is "fate" - OM is richer than me "Nothing I can do" - It becomes less personal.

worthatry,<p>please re-read my original post that you quoted from, what I said was this:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> When I first became involved with OM I told him I was seperated from my H almost divorced(so untrue), so he expected some turmoil plus I have 2 kids so that kind of explained not being able to see him alot plus he lives over 100 miles away. So in essence the OM did not knowingly get involved with a married woman, and knowing his personality I don't think he would have.
<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe you were missing some of this info when you posted.<p>I do not now nor have I ever condoned adultery, my H and I have both discussed this and have agreed we were both wrong. It has never been an issue for us who was wrong, we both know we were both wrong.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: definitely unsure ]</p>

I think the way we are defining jelousy around here is limited to the second definition I gave for jelousy which typically is how the word jelousy is used. I can feel your pain in your post, I by know means was weighing in personally on your situation, and was not implying that your H has the right to be jeleous here. I was trying to provoke thought. All too often people just post without really thinking what the dynamics of things are.<p>IMHO: Jelousy is a natural human reaction to a threat on an individual. It is caused by a persons's low self esteem about the particular area being threatened. Jelousy can be healthy because it makes the individual realize by the power of the emotion that there are problem areas in their self esteem which needs to be addressed. Jelousy becomes unhealthy to others when it becomes obsesive or reoccuring. It is a sign that the person has not dealt with the self esteem issue and is not comfortable with himself.<p>I am very honest about myself on this website. I know that I have self esteem issues now regarding sex and that is what makes me jelous. I am currently dealing with my self esteem issue, and I am nearly at a total recovery here with my self esteem. My self worth is being tested and I am being strengthened.<p>As children we are typically sheltered from harmful events until which time a thoughtfull parent will allow their embrace to slowly slippen to allow the child to experiment and learn from life. Part of this learning is the threats the child has on his worth. When the child experiences others being elevated above him by teachers, friends, family, and in relationships, his self esteem is being tested. If the child becomes jeleous he becomes aware of the fact that he feels jeleous of the elevated individual, and is forced to deal with this because of the level of discomfort the jelousy brings to him.<p>IMHO: In your circumstance, however, it appears that the jelousy your H is showing has become obsessive. He is not dealing with his self esteem issues. He is continually feeling threatened by the OM (and maybe anyone else that comes near you) regardless of whether or not the OM is still there. I can tell by your posts that you on the other hand, are a very confident person. My previous post touched a nerve in you and you confronted me with very good points. That is very admirrable, and proves to me that you are very comfortable with your self esteem. (by the way: My apologies for not being more sensitive about your situation. I feel terrible about that. I reacted to the posts because I have been jelous. I should find out more about people's story before responding. Unfortunately, I would not be able to post very much if I did. I am going to have to be more sensitive about this in the future.)<p>All I can say here to help you is try (without saying it) to work on his self esteem. This is hard to do externally because it is an internal decision. Good luck.

Dreamland,<p>No need for apologies, you have your own opinion and I respect that [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I just wanted to shed a little light on my situation and why I feel the way I do. <p>I think your idea about working on his self-esteem is a good one. But you are right it will be hard I will have to give it a try. Thanks for your imput.<p>DU

DU - my apologies. I overlooked that information in your post.<p>Will your H visit this board, or did I miss that, too? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck to you both.<p>WAT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by definitely unsure:
<strong> <p>I do not now nor have I ever condoned adultery, my H and I have both discussed this and have agreed we were both wrong. It has never been an issue for us who was wrong, we both know we were both wrong.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: definitely unsure ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
DU,
I am always intrigued with the WW perspectives and I thank you for having the courage to share your feelings, cause you know us wounded BS types have a perspective on things that are heavily weighted on our experience. So we (I!) sometimes don't give the crdit due to the other side of the story - the WW -- I know you are not a bad person!!
I should add that in my case, which I have found is common with all BS (whether guy or gal), the pain is somehat hard to describe, but be sure it is very painful, to think of the betrayal & dis-trust & dis-respect -- & the part about the ego may be more a guy's thing -- to think that we were somehow or in someway --"inadequat"<p>Now I hope I am not being too harsh, but I am confussed why you say you did not believe in Adultry when you deliberately mislead this guy to make it seem you were more available or less entangled than you really were -- It seems that you are somehow defending this other guys honar or make him seem so good that he would not consider such an act -- I don't know if it matters, but of course being seperated & "almost" divorced still means that are married. I have heard this line from pleanty of guys in a bar looking for pick ups. You realise of course that this other guy understood your the meaning or message, that regardless of your marital status, you were interested.
Like I said, the technicalities may not matter, but from a BS, this would weight on my mind as to what were your motives & what is different today -- again, trust issues that you & your H may have already worked through.
Did you see this month's newsletter from MB? It has something about a developing a plan as to how to prevent an A. I cannot share this with my S, as it causes too much drama, like I am controlling, but I know it would give me a lot more confidence knowing that we can recognise this happened and why & what specific things are being done & considered & thought out in advance from having such a thing happen again. Not just continuing on as if nothing happened & assuming it won't happen again - there were reasons & from a BS point of view, for us to have confidence it won't happen again, we first must understand the causes. Can't very well fix what was broken w/o knowing this - maybe you have worked through that as well.
In my case my DW wants me to believe that this was totally spontaneous & she had absolutely nothing to do with it - I have a sense that she felt certain things happening between them, liked the attention & even may have done certain things to promote the flirtatious things and given certain signs that she was open to more -- I of course cannot be certain about this! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Having an agreed upon game plan for different senerios and discussing how you will stop any possible miscommunication, flirtatious actions with another guy would be very helpful, to ease my mind at least, that these supposed serendipty kind of encounters, temptations can be handle the next time. IMHO -- maybe just my take, from my experience - for example, she presented this to me the first time in a way that there was this terrific, strong, direct suggestion from the guy & that the compliments felt so good, she just could not resist, she fell to temptation! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, it would give me great piece of mind to see from her something in writing that she recognises these signs, perhaps even very subtle at first & specifically how she plans on dealing with it the next time, so that she is not in such tempatatious position again.
You see I can see that with the way she dresses & acts on certain occassions that she is very much into a "boy meets girl kind of mode" - she like to get the attention from the guys - she has said as much, maybe natural, but I am not sure she is in a position to deal with strong come-on from - as she described her A's started.

For example, have you ruled out any kind of flirting -- is this a boundary of sorts for you & he? <p>Hope I have not caused undo stress & hopefully some insights from a wounded BS.
Peace,
HH<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

WAT,<p>Thats ok the post I mentioned it in was kind of longwinded. And no I never mentioned about my H coming to this board. To answer your question, No he really has no time to be on the computer to begin with. Secondly I would prefer it that way. I am very honest on these boards and I mention a lot of things about both his A and my A in TOO much detail. I think if he were to visit these boards it might bring back a lot of the pain and hurt that we have already gotten past. These boards have helped me tremendously in the past months, in turn have allowed me to help my H.<p>DU

Jo has hit on a very important part of this...<p>When my WW was deep in the A and fogged up completely she told me "He makes me feel good about myself." <p>Stay away from trying to compete with a fantasy.<p>When the wayward spouse says, "They made me feel good about myself" it is often an indication that your spouse was busy sucking the life out of them as well. It takes a dysfunctional emotional state to seek out and continue an affair -- there is a reason it is called an addiction.<p>When they are letting someone else make them feel good, you run the risk of trying to compete with an unrealistic, foggy addiction. Run away. My wife wanted me to do the same at first as well. She wanted me to do for her all the things the OM was doing to help her feel good.<p>The missing part to all of that was she was doing nothing to make HERSELF feel good. We should not depend on others to make us happy. We should enjoy our time with them but if we cannot be happy without them doing specific things for us, then we are likely dysfunctional. <p>There is no way I could have ever competed with the memory/fantasy of the OM. It took my wife a while to realize that (and thankfully now does so) and to no longer desire that I "make her feel good about herself." My wife had/has significant issues with her self esteem where she would latch onto others that made her feel good. One of her famous lines was, "I love people that love me." That is not the way it works. It does not matter how much another person tries to love me, my love is only for those I chose to give it to. My feelings and emotions do not control me, I (at least try to) control them. As long as my wife operates (and I honestly don't know if she still does) under the idea that she will love a person simply because they act lovingly to her, she will run the risk of another A.<p>We, and our wayward spouses, need to make ourselves feel good first (typically with a successful plan a) so that we can bring a loveable person to the relationship instead of one that would cannibalize the emotions and esteem of the other person.<p>In regard to competing, it is absolutely an issue with men. My wife has made comments that are burned into my memory that to her, meant little, but to me, illustrate how I will simply never be able to measure up to some of the things of the OM. It is EXTREMELY painful to think that you will never be able to satisfy your wife in some ways that she found more attractive in the OM. You not only lose your sense of self, you no longer even feel human, much less a man because of the comparison. For lack of a better term, it really sucks.<p>My wife once mentioned that he was a better kisser. That ate me up so much that I thought that perhaps I should look into getting lip injections. She mentioned that she liked that he was taller (nothing I can to about that but feel miserable in my inadequacy). She mentioned that it was less painful to make love to him and that it felt more natural. Nothing is more damaging to the typical man's ego to say the OM is a better lover.<p>It took me a long time to resolve myself to the idea that I will never be able to live up to some of that the other stuff was due to the fantasy. Of course sex was better with him, it was new, wrong (which means that it was illicite and exciting), and wrapped up in romantic notions. My wife will never be able to compete with some of my memories either. It is best to simply not compare such.<p>Wayward wives, the best possible thing you can do a sopuse that struggles with this is to consistently provide them affirmation and admiration. You need to realize that you have severly damaged their ego -- probably like never before and while they are responsible for rebuilding their own ego (remember they need to redevelop their own self esteem), you can assit in that process by providing positive or at least assertive feedback.<p>For example, if you H is too quick in bed (and the OM was a marathon man), it is in your best interest to provide him feedback that builds him up while at the same time giving him positive ways to improve. My counselor once made mention of "exagerated rejection." It basically goes like this:<p>Instead of, "Honey, would you like to make love?"
-->"No thank you" "Or I am not interested."
Say, "Wow dear, thank you for the wonderful offer! There is nothing more that I would like to do than to make love to you at this moment. I am sure it would be wonderful but unfortunately, I am so <insert reason for rejection, like tired> right now that I am afraid that I would not be able to make it very enjoyable for you. I know that you enjoy much more when I can get into it as well and I just don't think I can do so tonight. Do you mind if we set aside time tomorrow as soon as we get home to make it enjoyable for both of us?"<p>You reaffirm, you offer admiration, you provide the rejection, and you offer an alternative. For me, I would love it if my wife were to do this.<p>Another example:
After a less than enjoyable love session instead of saying, *sigh* or *sob* "It just isn't the same any more" or "we need to work on helping you to last longer."
Say, *smile* Did you enjoy it? *smile* I am very glad I could please you. It makes me happy when I can bring a smile to your face. "What? Did I enjoy it? Absolutely, it was not quite as good as it could have been but I know that the more we work on it *wink*, the better it will get. Do you mind if I offer some suggestions on ways to make it better for me? I know that you really feed off the idea of my enjoyment so I hope that by discussing this, we can find ways to provide each of us greater pleasure. I am glad you are willing to discuss this."<p>Again, it is a demonstration of respect and care for your H that he will unlikely be used to that will communicate (if done honestly) a strong desire and willingness on your part to make your H happy (while at the same time, you are tyring to get your needs met).<p>If it is something that your H simply can never measure up to (for example, the OM was taller or younger), you have your work cut out for you but the same principle applies. Offer much admiration and affirmation of what they are. Let your H know, often, that you are very happy with his height (for example) and all the reasons why you like him at that height. Many of us are simply looking for honest emotions from you that communicate that you really are chosing us and that you really do like us. As much as we want your committment, we want you to desire us (and to communicate such) all that much more.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Bunky ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by definitely unsure:
<strong>I am very honest on these boards and I mention a lot of things about both his A and my A in TOO much detail. I think if he were to visit these boards it might bring back a lot of the pain and hurt that we have already gotten past.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>(disclaimer: I never entered recovery with my XW, so I may have my head up my a$$.)<p>I understand what you're trying to protect, but I believe that to fully recover, you two will have to process all the information and adopt radical honesty. This may be a gradual process and perhaps neither of you is ready for it. But, in the end, the truth will set you free.<p>WAT