When two people get married, BOTH vow to love, cherish, honor, foresaking all others....for better or worse. TWO people vow this. When one breaks the vow "foresaking all others" and along with that goes "cherish and honor". Does that automatically give the other party a "get out of jail free card" and the automatic right to pull the plug on the marriage at any time?<p>I'm not looking to find out who's "at fault" with the marriages end...just curious about others opinions on this.

I have thought about this quite a bit myself. I even gone as far at one time to say that I am no longer married. I used to say that I can not see how I can be a husband when she is not a wife.<p>My opinion has changed a bit now that I believe in unconditional love. I now view that part of my vow is to love and to hold regardless of what the other spouse does. I think she is sick now and I will stay by her side until she "feels" better (the OM is gone).<p>Of course, this has a limit. I feel that I should not have to be tourmented forever, and I should be allowed to take back my vow when all that I have tried has been exhausted. Even then, I will still love my wife, and if we ever get divorced, a part of me will be lost.

My view is the vows are exchanged. But each person's vow remains their vow. The breaking of one person's vow doesn't break the other person's.<p>But, that is looking at it more in a spiritual light than, like, a legal contract.

I agree dreamland. We've seen too many cases that support the idea that a marriage CAN move on from infidelity, and that wayward spouses can in fact "get it".<p>It just seems to me that when you find out your spouse is an alcoholic, people tell you to get them into treatment or go to alanon and try to support them in doing the right thing. But when you find out your spouse is unfaithful it's ok to dump and run. Just like there are no guarantees that your spouse will get treatment and quit drinking, there are no guarantees they will ever "get it" and become faithful either...so no, I don't think anyone needs to endure anothers self-destruction or the personal consequences of that indefinatly...but I guess that I feel that REAL love, REAL marriage, REAL committment to your vows....mean that you atleast TRY to make things better first.<p>Another interesting double standard is that when an alcoholic DOES reform and quits drinking, they are admired for that. When a WS reforms and learns the value of comittment...they are still doubted and catagorized. Their opinion is no longer as valued because it is undoubtly tainted. I think that's because alcoholism is more widely understood than is infidelity.

Lor, I agree with you as well. I see a marital contract as a spiritual one, one far more binding and important than just a "legal" or business contract.

You asked for opinions. Here is mine: <p>I don't think there is an automatic "get out of jail free card". I think each unique situation is different and there are no black and white issues. What is right for one person is not necessarily right for another. PLUS I think that you should never divorce UNTIL you have forgiveness in your heart and you are doing it as an act of love not punishment/revenge so there has to be major healing that takes place BEFORE the divorce is considered rather than thinking divorce is going to heal you. There has to also be a lot of time and grace and mercy extended before the final death of the marriage to be certain you've tried everything. So when you say "at any time" I do think that if someone was unfaithful numerous times but the last time was 10 years ago but NOTHING has changed Except that they have been faithful for 10 years...me personally... I would think it is ok to back out at any time.

I don't think that there is a single, universal answer to that question. It's like religion, some people are going to choose to be Christians, others Jewish, others Muslims, Pagans, Atheist, etc.<p>I think it has to do with how a person looks at the marriage. If the marriage is looked strictly as a legal contract between two people where if one breaches the contract, then the marriage contract becomes null and void. People with that view will say that their marriage would be over. On the other hand, there are people who view marriage as a pact with God, where if one breaks his/her vows the other will beleive that it's her/his sacred duty to wait, no matter how long, for the WS to return to the marriage.<p>What is really interesting is how there is a difference between what people say they would do if they found out their spouse committed infidelity and what they actually do once that is the case. There are some that will say that their spouses would be kicked out so fast that the door wouldn't have a chance to hit them in the a** on their way out, and yet they do no such thing when it becomes reality. And likewise there is a group that says that they would find it in their hearts to forgive and wait for their spouses to return to them and work on the marriage, and yet they end up kicking them out , quickly filing for divorce, and never again speaking to them for the rest of their lives.<p>Joe

Too true...every case is really individual. There are a lot of things one has to consider.<p>TooMuch...you're right...people often do react much differently than they would imagine. I think, again, because one can't really imagine the true feelings of a situation until you're actually in it. Years ago both my H and I would have said it would have been over immediatly had one of us cheated...but then at the time we never believed anything remotely like that would ever happen. I think our marriage, and our ideas of marriage have now matured enough to realize how naive we were to everything when we first got married. However...if it happened now or in the future...I think it would be hands down all over in a flash. Because now we DO understand and everything would be with full knowledge of it's consequences and the "right" way to deal with those inappropriate feelings.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Lor, I agree with you as well. I see a marital contract as a spiritual one, one far more binding and important than just a "legal" or business contract.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I beleive that the true test of that beleif will be when a person goes thru the ordeal of infidelity. At that point his/her actions will speak louder than words.<p>Joe

I think that if the betrayed spouse decides to end the marriage because of infidelity ... that the "get out of jail *free* card" ... is mis-named! More like "Get out of jail crawling through flames and over broken glass on bloodied hands and knees card" ....<p>There is nothing "free" about being betrayed by adultery. It is very costly to a person's well-being.. .. both partners well-being actually.<p>Of course leaving the M after a betrayal is a legitimate choice the BS may choose... but, not a choice taken with great joy and happiness ... not "free" at all.... but heavy with guilt, sorrow, pain, anguish, and utter dispair.<p>But, I would NEVER fault anyone who makes the choice to leave after being betrayed. NEVER. Perhaps leaving after an affair was a promise made to himself by the betrayed ... a vow never to compromise the fidelity part of their marriage or to accept that compromise from their spouse.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Does that automatically give the other party a "get out of jail free card" and the automatic right to pull the plug on the marriage at any time?[/QB]<hr></blockquote><p>I was raised in a very religious family. We were taught that the only grounds for divorce were in the event of infidelity. It would be up to the betrayed partner to decide whether or not the marriage is over. This did not give the betrayed a blanket opportunity to hold divorce over the offending partner’s head for the rest of their lives. Once he/she said they forgave the person and were willing to work on the marriage the grounds for divorce are no longer available to them. So the betrayed person had to really search his/her heart to make they could live with the fact that their spouse cheated on them. No matter what God hates divorcing in any situation so if at all possible its best that the marriage be restored.

Good points Pepper.<p>I tend to forget the depth of all of the pain because we're no longer in it and because it's becoming "numbed" in reading over and over and over how common it is. But it IS a big deal, whether or not it's common or not.

I don't think that two wrongs make a right and when one partner commits adultery it does not mean the other can rightfully do the same. Adultery is adultery, regardless of the cause or the motivation. One spouse's adulterous relationship often leads to a secondary affair on the part of the BS, but they are BOTH in the wrong. The initial affair does not absolve the affair of the second spouse. <p>That being said, from a religious standpoint, God hates divorce. But adultery is SO very damaging that it is the only permissable reason that He gives for divorce. Most marriages do not survive adultery, but many survive alcoholism. And yes, alcoholism is hard, but it does not have the same damaging effect that such a betrayal has on one's psyche and marriage. Strangely, often when alcoholics QUIT drinking, thier spouses leave them then because they miss being the only adult in charge! Weird.......

Hi H4F,<p>I'm the BS in our M. As a Christian, Christ does give me the option of divorce... but I don't feel that this is a "get out of jail free" card for the rest of the marriage.<p>I chose to keep our marriage together and to work to make it better. In my mind, once that choice was made, I gave up my right to divorce for the reason of infidelity (unless it happened again, then I would have to make another decision.) <p>In other words, I don't feel that I have a "get out of jail free" card to use over my wife if for example, we weren't happy and I felt like divorcing her just because she was unfaithfull in the past. <p>Take care...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hope4<p>My H is also a "recovering" alcoholic. Please note, he never says "recovered". His adultery was the most destructive thing I have ever experienced from any other human being. His drinking was also destructive, but not even in the same ballpark as far as being hurtful to me as a person.<p>"Recovering" alcoholics never consider themselves "cured" enough to call themselves "recovered"----> He always considers himself to be at risk for slipping back into alcoholic thinking. So, he goes to meetings, to keep himself honest. He also considers himself at risk of being attracted to other women, and he takes extra precautions not to be in a position of temptation. <p>Should former adulterers consider themsrelves "cured" to the standard of being "recovered" vs "recovering" .... ? Any thoughts?<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Good question...because really we are all "at risk" for having feelings outside our marriage when things get dull or difficult within the marriage. <p>I guess I look at that as the growth I think I've achieved. The fact that I now know the red flags to avoid. My father was an alcoholic so I've always been aware that I might be more suseptable to alcoholism. If I started drinking just to drink I would see the red flag. When I was in pain in my M I did NOT see the red flag when I turned and vented my hurt to a family friend. The "love affair" that ensued just seemed right in line with what I'd learned in the movies. MAJOR misconception on my part.<p>I guess alcoholism is probably more devistating to the person afflicted with it, than is adultrey. But both have a terribly adverse affect on children and on a marriage.<p>So am I recovered or recovering? I would say I am RECOVERED because the pain that both H and I endured from the A was more than anything I've ever experienced in my life. I would NOT go looking for that pain again...I KNOW this. I LEARNED. But my growth is not finished...I also know this. I still have MUCH to learn...so in that sense I don't think any of us will ever be done.

Thanks for your thoughts Hope4 ... I have a reason I asked you this question ... I will have time to post it here on this thread later this weekend ... I would very much value your opinion about something.<p>Later... work is getting ugly today. Gotta go.<p>P

I think that one thing to look at in this discussion is how is it looked at in religions and by the law. Originally, marital law came from the church. Over time it moved to civil law. Every religion that based on The Book, Jewish, Christian and Islam allows for divorce and/or annulment due to infidelity. <p>One exception is in the Muslim faith in that a woman has no right to divorce. A husband has the right to divorce his wife if she is unfaithful. That is of course if she is not stoned to death. Even though the woman does not have the right to divorce for any reason, Islam still looks down on infidelity by the man.<p>Our courts have always allowed for divorce on the grounds of infidelity. Yes, many states have moved to no fault divorce laws. IMHO that’s because marriage doesn’t really mean anything to much of our society. <p>My point is that a BS has the legal and/or religious right to end a marriage based on their spouse’s infidelity.<p>RE: On the other hand, there are people who view marriage as a pact with God, where if one breaks his/her vows the other will believe that it's her/his sacred duty to wait, no matter how long, for the WS to return to the marriage. <p>I do not believe that you can find anything that tells a person that they are duty bound by religion to stay in a marriage regardless of what their spouse does.<p>Having that right and how one exercises it are two different things. I do believe in the vows.. ‘in sickness and in health, for better, for worse’. That is why I stayed in my previous marriage for so long and why and I am still in this one. Each situation is different. Each person is different. Each of us has to decide for him/her self what they can live with and what their limits are. A person is not more saintly/better if they stay is a marriage where they are being abused (I see infidelity as a form of emotional abuse.). A person is not less saintly/worse if they choose to not recover their marriage after infidelity. In the final analysis, this is between the couple and their God.

Hope4,

In my view, although both the man and the woman take the vows at the same time and place, each person takes their vows independently. Quite simply, the vow says "I will do this". Not "I will do this if she does that and as long as she doesn't do the-other-thing.".

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

H4F ...<p>In recent weeks, I've been completely **gaga** for Mr. Pepper .... and very demonstrative of these affectionate feelings ... to the point where our teens are nauseous [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] and find our behavior "ickky" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ! Mr. Pepper eats up this lovin' with a spoon! (It is sooo much fun to gross out our kids by hugging and kissing in the kitchen ... they get all squirmy, but, I think they actually accept this as how wife and hubby should behave)<p>Well, last weekend, H and I went to a school event. Parents only, luau dinner and dance. It was an appreciation dinner for all the parents who donated a certain number of hours to fundraising, etc.<p>During the party, I notice H is floating away from me emotionally as if on an iceburg. It's quite subtle, actually, but I've become a better observer of his subtleness during the recovery years. We sit down and eat, and the iceburg is getting further and further away. I joke around in an effort to bring him back into the room. Doesn't work. Finally I ask:<p>"What's wrong? You are somewhere else and not *in the moment*?"<p>He says:<p>"I am feeling melancholy because being here reminds me of events like this I went to with my parents." .... <<Dad is dead, Mom is ill>><p>I try to engage him a little bit by flirting ... and get iced. Further emotional distance. H then accidently spills coffee over both of us. I tell him it's time to go, because neither of us is having an enjoyable time anymore. We leave. I am miffed. This is a once-a-year event, now ruined.<p>Late at night, I awaken wirh an "Aah-Hah!" intuition. I realized H's "melancholy about parents' memories" explaination was a red-herring! When H wakes up, I ask him, "How strong is your attraction to <N>?" (<N> is a married friend and neighbor who was also at the luau) H is chagrined by the accuracy of my intuition. He tells me that the attraction is "Very strong". I ask him if the attraction seems mutual to him, he says he thinks it is. Then we proceed to have one of those "emotionally naked" heart-to-heart discussions for the next two hours while drinking coffee in bed.<p>One of the things we discussed was what "need" he thought she could meet that I could not. She is a former broadway actress now screen-writter who is really knowledgable about theater and film .... something I will never be able to match. She is a fellow AA 12-step recovery person, also something I will never be able to match. They can spend hours together discussing plays or twelve step principles ... a common history of interests they share, and I do not.<p>Well, of course, I was very put out and had hurt feelings. I mean, crippes Hope! .... I'd been gaga-lovin' this man up one side and down the other for quite awhile lately ... and he still finds this other woman very, very attractive. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We talked and talked. We discussed my need to feel protected ... and to BE protected from another affair. There is not an affair here, but a strong attraction. One of the better things that resulted from this conversation, was that we found ourselves able to discuss this emotional dilemma lovingly and honestly with each other. We did not fight. We did not bring up old hurts except in reference to using lessons learned so as not to repeat past mistakes.<p>I find myself attracted to other men less and less as our marriage and our love deepens and develops. Evidently H has a different threshold for feeling attracted ... or, he is not so gaga over me as I thought????<p>But, good news is, I did not fall apart. I held onto myself, and made it safe for H to discuss this with me.<p>What do you make of this? I am standing too close to the trees to get the big picture of the forest. I'd like your perspective. Thanks.<p>Pepper [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</p>