ready to go,<p>I am not sure if you had mentioned whether or not she knows about your affair.<p>You seem to be prety hung up on getting your needs met in the marriage. Maybe she has been so cold to you because you have not been meeting her needs. Remember that us men are not that sensitive. Maybe you are the cause of all your pain. Maybe for years you have been telling her by your actions that you do not love her, and she has just withdrawn from you!<p>It is amazing how you did so much to hurt her by your actions (whether or not she knows about them), but yet you expect her to fullfill your needs. She did not break your marriage vows, you did!! You are the man and are responsible for your actions and what you did to wreck your marriage. You need to get a hold of the reality here before it is too late. Search your life and your feelings, ask your wife (she probably will not tell you now) if there is anything she regrets about you, and then come back here and tell me that I am wrong.

Dreamland,<p>This is copied from the second post I had in this thread....it is immediately after your first reply,<p>"First of all I know I have not been perfect in my relationship with my wife....but she told me in July that there was absolutely NOTHING I could do different to be a better husband. So that is all I have to go on as to wheather I was meeting her needs or not."<p>This has been the biggest problem in my marriage, she will not be open and honest with me. There have been many times that she has not talked to me for days....EVEN NOW I DO NOT KNOW WHY...during those times, I would ask her what was wrong...she would say NOTHING. Within the last year when I ask her about those times in the past she says she was mad at herself...but she took it out on me....by not talking to me. If someone isnt honest with you how can you know what is going on in their head. I have ALWAYS told her when I wasnt happy. Most of the time she knew anyway. She NEVER apologized for any fights we ever had...I always did...until one day I decided I wouldnt.....then I found out that it didnt matter things seemed to get better any way so it got to where neither of us apologized. She never said I love you....unless I said it first...everytime. Finally I quit saying that too. <p>I KNOW I am not meeting any of her ENs now, but I did for 20+ years and she got very complacent, and took so much for granted. <p>I have been told by many friends that I did too much for her and that she EXPECTED everything instead of appreciated it. I was told to stop treating her so good 3 years ago....but didnt, because I thought I was SAPPOSE to treat her that way and she would in turn treat me better. But she just got worse and worse. Then I did stop. But it has been gradually. Maybe I should have just up and moved out at the beginning of last year. Instead I quit persueing her, after 4 months she asked why I had not touched her in the last 2 months. So that just told me that she didnt miss it for 2 months. That is when I told her SHE needed to make moves towards me. She never did until April of this year...when I moved out for a week....then came back home and she hugged me 3 nights before bed each night....she asked if I intended to leave again I said no....she hasnt shown any affection to me since. Before I moved out I had asked her if she could continue living with me sleeping in one bed and her in another....she said she could, I said I could not. <p>All of that to say this.....I do think I have tried very hard over the years. The harder I tried the worse she treated me. There have been times when things seemed to get her attention and she seemed afraid to lose me....but then after a period of time..its like she doesnt care again. <p>I still dont understand IF SHE DOES LOVE ME...then why is it so hard for her to touch me and hold me. I do believe if I made the first move she would respond very favorably now. But it would be me doing it again....I need to know its her doing it because SHE wants to. Not because she HAS to.<p>Now I am where I NEVER thought I would be. Maybe I should just get a divorce and start a new life...I wish I knew what to do.<p>I told yall this would be long.
thanks.

The only thing you need to know is that you cannot change her. She is reading that book. See that as positive growth. It may not be what YOU want but it is growth none the less.<p>This has nothing to do with any comparison with any other marriage your friends have or have observed.<p>You cannot make your wife be honest with her feelings. She has to want to do so. No amount of pressure from you will achieve such.<p>You REALLY want to get her to go to counseling? Tell her the truth.<p>One other idea, if you are not ready to tell her the truth, is to start going yourself. Be CONCERNED WITH YOUR OWN GROWTH AND CHANGE. Perhaps once she sees how committed you are to counseling, she will want to join you. As added incentive, I would not tell her the details of why you are going until you are either ready to tell her the truth (all of it) or she agrees to go with you. You do have a right to privacy in counseling.

It is a strange thing about EN's. We may be spending an enormous amount of time trying to fill an EN that is not important to our wife's in which case this effort is wasted. If your effort is not appreciated, it is probably because she could care less about you doing this to meet her emotional need. Spend time on her most important EN's. You should be able to experiment with this to find out what will give you the most positive response. COMMUNICATION IS CRITICAL.<p>She is not going to open up to you about anything until she feels safe with you. You have to work it. Typically, a woman will play games with this. The game for her is to make sure she is getting 100% attention and she is feeling needed before she will open up. Most men get the first no and say, "she must not want to talk about it." This is absolutely not true. Do not give up trying to find out until she just is begining to get mad at you.<p>It seems that you are very unhappy and mad about all of this now. It is very difficult to find out anything when you are feeling this way because it shows in your manerisms and your true feelings will eventually show. You need to begin to work on yourself here. Learn to forgive her for the past. All women are capable of loving, there is nothing wrong with your wife. Think back long ago, you married this women for a reason. She did not change, your relationship changed. Think about why you want to make things work. Do you love her? Do you love her unconditionally? <p>Part of a relationship is filling each other's needs. You have been very descriptive in what your needs are to her. She may try to meet these needs, but she is trying for the wrong reasons. She is not doing this out of love, but out of a desire to keep you, that is probably why it seems fake. Do not expect a 100% immediate turn around in your relationship just because you discovered a book which explains things to you. This could take months or years to fix especially if you continue to hold back your feelings and your second secret life from her. You may think that you are a good husband to her, but the reality is that you are cheating her. Long after the A is over, you will still be cheating her because you have not opened yourself up to her and shared with her who you really are. How can your relationship ever get better if you never open up to her.<p>It is very important that you continue to read and work on yourself. I would recommend that you seek independent counseling to get a fresh perspective. Learn about true unconditional love and forgive her for the past. Eventually, she will have to forgive you for your past. We are charged by God to love our wifes as God loves the church, find out what that means and do it. It will make all the difference in your relationship.<p>Based upon what you have been telling me, is it possible she does know about the affair? Women have a sixth sense about this. Maybe this is why she is cold to you.

She works 40 hrs a week. She carries a 4.0 in her Masters program. She plans all the vacation deatils. She keeps a clean house. There are also children??<p>You treat her like a queen...I would have said the same thing about my H..before he met the OW.HE wound up having the affair. The reality that has been discovered thru 21 months of counseling..HE was traeted like a King..I was ignored.
I was NOT treated like a queen... I was NOT having my needs met.Yet I was faithful..and caring and affectionate and understanding. HE WAS having his needs met...And he was unfaithful.
21 months ago, he sounded like YOU!! He was wrong.. I suspect your guys are BOTH living a lie...she is telling herself everything is OK..and it's not.And slowly dying inside..and she doesn't even know it. Jeez, She's freakin' BUSY...
Do YOU help her? MAYbe THAT is what she needs and when THAT falls in to line, YOU will get what you need. MAybe SHE needs to know first,too,that she is not there just for SF.<p>You state you need her to prove to you??? Are ya NUTS?? YOU ARE HAVING AN AFFAIR.., YOU left the marriage...regardless of what She did...You say you don't love her? I suspect THAT is not true either. I think you,buddy, need to go to IC and get really honest with yourself...If you didn't love her, You would be gone!!!

I do doubt that my wife has any idea about my A. Most of the time she is in her own world and really doesnt seem to know if I am around or not.<p>I didnt doubt her loving me until someone replied to me earlier about if she really did love me or was just saying it.<p>Thanks

If you had asked me ,21 months ago, if my H were having an affair, I would have laughed in your face... BUT I DID know something was VERY wrong...She may not think you could do this. I sure didn't think so...but it did happen.EVERYTHING made sense after he confessed...So no she may not know about the affair but she knows you are different.<p>Maybe she thinks you are being a big baby...someone ELSE who wants from her...Sounds like she doesn't have time to worry about this stuff...and you are left with time on your hands.<p>I didn't say she didn't love you( YUP, My H told himself this too, during the 3 week affair). YOU said you didn't love her. You are only staying b/c of your committment...a committment that has already been violated and broken. <p>Tell us why you are REALLY still married... That's a question I'd like every OM to ask himself...My H said he came home for the kids...a JOKE..Our kids are grown..and they love their dad. He came home because he loves ME, plain and simple...and all the lies he told himself fell apart very shortly...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ready to go:
<strong>I do doubt that my wife has any idea about my A. Most of the time she is in her own world and really doesnt seem to know if I am around or not.<p>I didnt doubt her loving me until someone replied to me earlier about if she really did love me or was just saying it.<p>Thanks</strong><hr></blockquote><p>readytogo,<p>There is absolutely no hope of intimacy here as long as this big secret remains between you two. She may have pushed you away all these years, but what you are doing is driving even a bigger wedge. It is driving you further apart. It can't go on this way. It will most certainly end if you continue this way. <p>The only hope you have of any recovery is to tell her the truth. Give her all the facts. Print up this thread and take it to her. She is under the illusion that your committment to her is absolutely unconditional and that she has to do nothing to deserve it. You have led her to believe this over the years. Now is the time to tell her that her actions have killed your love for her and that if she wants the marriage to work, she is going to have to start PARTICPATING in the marriage. At least give her that option. Maybe she won't take it. Maybe she will. At least you will know where you stand.<p>But you two have grown so far apart over the years that thought of having initimate relations with someone with whom she is NOT in the least intimate is abhorrent. It is almost like having sex with a stranger - and that is abhorrent for most women. <p>That is just a start. The next step would be to get into marriage counseling to learn how to be intimate and meet each others needs. <p>Your story has really shaken me up because it is my exH's story. You have described me exactly. I was treated like a princess for 20 years and ignored all of his needs. He just up and left me one day and that was the end of that. [1999] I am glad it happened now because I did not really love him, but I would have appreciated the truth.

I would have to agree with most of the people at this site about you needing to tell your wife about the A. However, I do not agree with the timing. You need to be much stronger than you are now to take what will happen when you tell her. Prepare for the worst case scenario that she will go ballistic when you tell her. Prepare for the fact that she may kick you out, tell all family and all friends, immediately file for divorce, never talk to you again, maybe even become violent with you. If you can handle this worst case scenario in your mind, you will be ready to tell her, and when she does not do all these things, you will feel fortunate.<p>You see, I believe that life is like a speeding bullet. The bullet will retain its general course unless something gets in its way to totally stop the bullet. The bullet may hit a twig and somewhat redirect the bullet, but the bullet is generally heading in the same direction. People generally do not change unless something drastic effects their life. You have had this something drastic to effect your life, and are seeking to better yourself. However, your wife has not, and she will not change. If you do tell her about your A, it will devistate her. She will learn about why your marriage has ended up where it is, and she will stop blaming herself about it (which she probably already is because you are telling her that she is not filling your needs.) At this point in time, she probably feels like you that there is no hope.<p>Additionally, you will never gain intimacy with your wife ever again if you do not tell her. You are just a room mate until you tell her. If she does not know about the A, she will never know who you really are inside. She will never open up because you will not open up. The same thing holds true for friendships, if you do not share who you are (history, work, childhood, etc.) the person can never be anymore than an aquaintence and will never know who you really are.<p>I am assuming that you are a Christian, in which case, what the Bible says about love is extremely important for your marriage. Remember that God demonstrated his love for us through sending his Son to die for us and our sins. Use this to clear your mind of all your selfishness in this period of time. Treat your wife as God treats us. <p>I think you probably should put the His needs Her Needs book down, and get the book "Surviving an Affair." Through stories of some of his previous clients, Dr. Harley describes what is going on in the mind of the wayward spouse (WS) and betrayed spouse (BS). You need to focus your efforts on this now instead of what I previously recommended about Mars and Venus in the Bedroom. I think your problem goes much deeper than what I had originally thought. I am sure others will recommend other books here as well. Read up and strengthen yourself because you must tell your wife in order to save your marriage, but beware that you may loose it in the process.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now I am where I NEVER thought I would be. Maybe I should just get a divorce and start a new life...I wish I knew what to do.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Have you told you W directly that you are unhappy enough with your M that you are considering D and that you really want to avoid D by working with her to save the M? <p>With things this serious you can't beat around the bush. Your M needs critical care right now.<p>I agree with others that your W is probably in withdrawal. Have you read Harley's info on the withdrawal stage of M? It is an emotional self-defense tactic one uses when the pain of an unsatisfactory M becomes intolerable. Your W burying herself in school and work and other things could be a way to protect her emotions by focusing on things that give her a feeling of fulfillment that she is not getting with you.
Women don't withdraw from a good relationship. She is hurting too.<p>Estes<p>P.S. Here is a very good book that helps us understand that different people perceive love in different ways.
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

I'm the one who said I faced my demons, and I'm going to give it to you from both my perspective and my H's (the WS).<p>For more than a year prior to the initiation of his A, he checked out of the M emotionally, just as it sounds like you did ("gave up"). No matter what your W has said, when someone emotionally exits the M, that is communicated very loud and clear in their treatment of the rejected partner. Every time I was around my H, I felt like an unwanted fungus. Naturally, I didn't like feeling like that, so I avoided him like the plague, which of course made him feel even more rejected, so he would treat me with even more contempt and disgust, which would drive me even farther away, and so on, so that the downward spiral was well underway.<p>This is the state of Withdrawal that Dr. Harley describes. It just gets worse until one of the partners draws the other into the state of Conflict. To get from Withdrawal to Intimacy, you HAVE to pass through Conflict; no Conflict, no Intimacy. And learning how to construct a safe environment (NO LBs) in which to negotiate Conflict is essential. You both sound like major conflict avoiders, as are my H and I. So, instead of making the first move and stepping into Conflict, you opted out of the M and went into an A (escaped the heat of the crucible, according to Dr. Schnarch); exactly what my H did.<p>The important thing to understand is that the gridlock you and your W have been experiencing is EXACTLY what M is designed for. It is inevitable. IOW, your M was WORKING--doing the job it is supposed to do. A paradox, but true. M is the cradle of adulthood--its purpose is to grow adults. And this happens when you are brave enough to STAY in the marital crucible, i.e. CONFRONT the gridlock UNTIL it is resolved and you reach a higher level of differentiation (growth).<p>It is so helpful to read Dr. Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) because he explains the process so much better than I can. To quote him: <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The dynamics of marriage itself fuel the crucible. Couples stay together by concurrence, but separation or divorce is a unilateral option; marriage is a nonenforceable commitment. One spouse, however, can always force the other to choose between holding onto the marriage and holding onto his/her integrity. This is an adults-only realization, worlds away from "happily ever after". There is nothing wrong with this common mettle-melting development; it is part of marriage's utility. Marriage (and the marital bed) is the crucible of adult human development.<hr></blockquote><p>You refused to take the heat of the crucible and vented it via an A. By not confronting yourself and disclosing your findings to your W, you helped both of you escape the heat of the crucible and remain at low levels of differentiation.<p>Dr. Schnarch on monogamy:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Monogamy provides the boundaries of the sexual crucible for human development. Like a pressure cooker, it prevents the dissipation of energy and tension necessary to forge two highly differentiated individuals capable of intense intimacy and eroticism.<hr></blockquote><p>Affairs and divorce are ways of venting the crucible to avoid reaching higher levels of differentiation, which is why I said you will never find the intimacy and eroticism you want unless you choose to endure the heat within the crucible. You want to be wanted, but don't want to want. Can't and won't happen. As long as you stay stuck there (and only YOU can unstick yourself), nothing will change, no matter how many partners you try on for size.<p>When my H was withdrawn from me, I would have had sex with a total stranger before I would have had sex with my H. I was so alienated from him that he was the LAST person on earth I wanted to have sex with, but I definitely wanted sex and love and intimacy, so I had the same two-choice dilemma that you and my H had. I chose to remain in the crucible because I knew having an A would be a betrayal of MYSELF. I held onto my integrity regardless of what my H was doing. I worked on developing a stronger sense of self and quit investing in the reflected sense of self my H provided.<p>The stronger I became and the more validation I was able to provide for myself, the less threatening my H was, or more specifically, the less threatening his rejection was. He, of course, noticed this, and it circumvented the incongruous power hierarchy he had constructed with his A. This put him in an interlocking crucible. He no longer had my withdrawal as an excuse for his behavior because I was at ease with myself and not afraid of his rejection anymore. I no longer avoided him. I was determined to enjoy my life no matter how shi**ty he treated me. I was pleasant, friendly, confident. My behavioral choices were drawing him into the state of Conflict.<p>His response was to tell me he was leaving me. Once again, I chose to hold onto myself in the midst of his anxiety and not react to his reactivity. I asked him if he wanted to work on the M or get a divorce and expressed my willingness to do either one. When he refused to answer, I pointed out that it took both of us to bring the M to this point of deterioration, so it was going to take both of us to rebuild it, and since I could not do it by myself, I would assume that his nonanswer was a choice for divorce. While I was on the phone making an appointment with the attorney, he said he wanted to work on the M.<p>The next day, I asked him what he needed from me in order to rebuild the M, and I told him what I needed from him for the same purpose. He refused to disclose his infidelity, but I had already done much soul-searching and self-confrontation, and I disclosed all of my stuff to him (Radical Honesty). I took responsibility for my contributions to the state of the M, and my actions for correcting that had already been consistent for some period of time and were ongoing (Plan A).<p>I followed through on everything he told me that he needed and wasn't getting from me, except for sex because my instincts told me he was having an A. He chose not to meet my needs and continued the A and continued to lie. Two weeks later, he couldn't take the heat again and decided to leave. Once again, I accepted his decision without a fight and reiterated my need for honesty. A few days later I sent him a note once again taking responsibility for my part in the marital demise, expressing my remorse regarding same and said good-bye and enclosed my wedding rings. I moved on with my life.<p>The next day, he disclosed his A and asked to come home, promising to do "anything" to rebuild the M. He came home, but there were more D-days and he kept up his escapist and conflict-avoidance behaviors (deception, withdrawal, punishing me). I had a plan, so I stuck with my plan and avoided reacting to his reactivity. I wanted to have sex, so I had sex. But we had to be tested and treated for the STD he gave me first. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I had already been rejected by him, but I was validating myself, so I decided to have the sex I wanted to have since he was willing. I didn't care what he thought of me. I had no more embarrassment about my body, my noises, my passion, my desires, and I let everything out sexually. This forced him to face my sexuality and its reality, and once again he had to face himself and his choices. Obviously he was married to an extremely sexual woman, and I had been there the whole time he chose to be elsewhere because he didn't want to do the work to lure that part of me out. I remained resolute (with the help of my MB friends [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) in my Plan A.<p>Finally, I had enough of my H's ill treatment and requested that he move out after a 4-month Plan A. He refused. I chose to get a court order to get him out. He then chose to participate in recovery and stop his LBs. We still have a long way to go, but the point is that you have to speak up and be transparent. My H had to face whether he wanted the M or not. Both of us had to reveal our wanting of the other and our wanting to be wanted by the other. Deciding to terminate an ongoing A results in growing to a higher level of differentiation. Then, he decided to disclose the A to me, once again upping his level of differentiation. <p>When he continued contact with the OW and ill treatment of me, I had to step into the crucible again--self-confront, self-disclose, self-soothe--which forced my H into his interlocking crucible, and then he had to self-confront, self-disclose, self-soothe, so now we are in an upward spiral, which has the pain of growth in revealing ourselves and risking rejection, but each time we do, we maintain or intensify our intimacy and eroticism. If you try to avoid the pain of growth, you will remain in the downward spiral, and you will crash.<p>You cannot control your W, but you can influence her and force a two-choice dilemma, but you have to live with her choice, just as she has to live with yours. The most important thing to notice in your situation is that what you have been doing IS NOT WORKING! Sitting there and playing a game of chicken to avoid being the one to make the first move will ALWAYS result in that downward spiral. You have to be proactive to get the spiral going the opposite direction. YOU have to do a 180 if you want HER to do a 180.<p>My H STILL does not spontaneously passionately kiss me the way I want and need to be kissed. I want to be taken into his arms and kissed passionately at least once every single day. Maybe someday he will do that as I would like, and maybe he won't, but what do I have to gain by stubbornly sitting there with my arms folded waiting for him to do it? Absolutely nothing. I can pretty much count on passionate kisses if I kiss him passionately, and I can positively reinforce him every time he DOES kiss me passionately, and I can keep telling him how much I need to be kissed. I can reveal my wanting to be wanted. The only sure thing is if I give up, I will NOT get what I want, but if I keep trying, I may actually get what I want.
If you want to be wanted, you are going to HAVE to reveal your own wanting. It will not happen otherwise. You are going to have to do the hard stuff to get the good stuff. It's really very simple. It may be painful, but like I said, pain is inevitable, but you get to choose which kind, and I submit that the clean pain of self-confrontation and self-disclosure is less painful than the dirty pain and stagnation of continued deception and conflict-avoidance.<p>The first step of the journey is to read SAA and follow the checklist on page 66. Feel the fear and do it anyway. What you have to lose is what you've already lost and/or thrown away. The damage of your A is done, and do not delude yourself that your W has no awareness of it. She may not be able to SEE what the obstacles are that she keeps smacking into and tripping over, but she knows they're there. You would be hard-pressed to find a BS on this forum who didn't first suspect an A before it was confirmed. If you fail to reveal information about the A to your W, you will be deepening and enlarging the wound your W already has.<p>Illusion does not heal broken marriages. If you continue to walk on a fractured leg because you are avoiding the pain by repeatedly injecting Novocain, you will eventually end up with the bones poking through the skin and the resultant severe infection and gangrene. Eventually the whole system will be poisoned and you will die. Marriages wounded by infidelity have to go through the emotional equivalent of surgery in order to heal. The broken bones have to be reduced and fixated and the traumatized and contaminated tissue has to be irrigated and debrided and sutured. Gangrene stinks, and the BS WILL smell it. The sooner you reveal the source of the stink, the sooner treatment can begin and healing can take place.<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

It is so helpful to read Dr. Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) because he explains the process so much better than I can. <p>You convinced me. I ordered it yesterday. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Conqueror,<p>Well said!! If you are not a writer by trade, maybe you should become one. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am going to order "Passionate Marriage" too. I understand the way this stuff works on a gut level, but I have never heard it described so well.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ready to go:
<strong>Dreamland,<p>
I have been told by many friends that I did too much for her and that she EXPECTED everything instead of appreciated it. I was told to stop treating her so good 3 years ago....but didnt, because I thought I was SAPPOSE to treat her that way and she would in turn treat me better. But she just got worse and worse. Then I did stop. But it has been gradually. Maybe I should have just up and moved out at the beginning of last year. Instead I quit persueing her, after 4 months she asked why I had not touched her in the last 2 months. So that just told me that she didnt miss it for 2 months. That is when I told her SHE needed to make moves towards me. She never did until April of this year...when I moved out for a week....then came back home and she hugged me 3 nights before bed each night....she asked if I intended to leave again I said no....she hasnt shown any affection to me since. Before I moved out I had asked her if she could continue living with me sleeping in one bed and her in another....she said she could, I said I could not. <p>All of that to say this.....I do think I have tried very hard over the years. The harder I tried the worse she treated me. There have been times when things seemed to get her attention and she seemed afraid to lose me....but then after a period of time..its like she doesnt care again. <p>I still dont understand IF SHE DOES LOVE ME...then why is it so hard for her to touch me and hold me. I do believe if I made the first move she would respond very favorably now. But it would be me doing it again....I need to know its her doing it because SHE wants to. Not because she HAS to.<p>Now I am where I NEVER thought I would be. Maybe I should just get a divorce and start a new life...I wish I knew what to do.<p>I told yall this would be long.
thanks.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi RTG,<p>I am joining in a bit late but have a few questions. I am the BS whose H is similar in not meeting most of my ENs yet he is the one who had an A. So based on that premise, here are my questions/comments. By the way, he initiates most of the SF but the EN portion of it is still left 'hanging'??? <p>1. What initially attracted both you and your W to each other?<p>2. Have either of you met with Steve or Jennifer or had sessions with a local MC? <p>3. A woman thing is that some of our reactions are based on speaking to our minds. Believe it or not this includes s3x, whereas with men they are stimulated more physically (viewing, touching, etc.). Not all woman but many. <p>4. My H is not very verbal. He does show care by doing things but often I feel like I have to initiate what he does (ask for something to be fixed, moved, done,etc.). When he does do something on his own, he expects me to notice and respond WITHOUT him telling me. After years of this, I have become callous. I usually am a very grateful person but how many times can you say thank-you to a wall!?!?!? LOL! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Man I really thought something was wrong with me. Why? Because out there in the world, H was known as the nicest and gracious guys. My H???? Hm..... even in an e-mail to the OW, I read where he thanked her at least 4 times with lines like 'the gift was sooo thoughtful', you are so kind to think of me, thank you so much for gift, it was a lovely gesture, etc (this is an ad lib from memory). So much so that I had to ask "what did she give you?" Of course I read this way after it happened but it was very evident that he was 'grateful'. Now I expected some lavish gift. You ready for this? It was a can of protein powder! LOL!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . I asked H, are you sure it wasn't something else? I asked this several times over the course of last year. Each time he said no, that was it. I had to laugh sooo hard, I almost fell over. I said wow, you were soooo grateful, I thought maybe it was a rolex or something. Well little did I know that the OW was a cheapskate (made big promises of wealth and money but would even buy him more presents - he would be with her in the store even try on the shirt then she did give it to her H). <p>The point to this story is that my H was able to be grateful, I personally thrive on receiving 'honest' gratetitude and I always would give it to my H and teach our child to do the same with others (H included). So why was it sooo hard for him to do it to me? H did not know. <p>Later he admitted to having a lot of pent up anger with me. Kinda jealous. I will go into that more on the next line. <p>5. Like many, I do a lot for my family. Actually I put many first ahead of myself, including my family. Often my work came ahead of my family (startup company and all) and that in itself took it's toll. <p>But that in itself is not what sent my H to the A. My H was jealous of my accomplishments. I made sure to ask about our incomes. My H is self employed and I actually make more than my H. I never held that over him. I was disappointed that H worked hard but brought in very little. So I would over compensate in other ways. Eventually when he went to the A, I learned that I was the one doing tooo much for him. Oh boy, that piece of knowledge just took tooo long to figure out we were married over 10 years by then. <p>So when H decided to come back to his family, he was able to come back on the grounds (boundaries/family value and requirments) he needed to do more and I needed to do less. The onis was on him to prove his value to us. <p>So far it seems to be working. Giving him more self worth. Helps me too!!!<p>The point to this line is what is your W going to do about meeting your ENs? Have you discussed that with her? Let her know you are now critically ill in this area. U need HER help. <p>It is ok to be vulnerable....somethimes and to the right person. <p>Take Care,

Dreamland,<p>Thanks for the compliment. I love to write and always wanted to be a writer, but I'd probably starve if I had to do it for a living. It seems to take me forever and so many drafts to get it the way I want it! I do have the distinction of every letter to the editor I've ever written being chosen for publication, though. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Mr. Bunky and all,<p>The paradigm shifts Schnarch facilitates are so life-changing. I'm becoming such a fan, and I rank him right up there with Dr. Harley and Dr. Phil. For anyone else interested, I noticed that Amazon is selling both Contructing the Sexual Crucible and Passionate Marriage as a set for around $60. The first is a text for therapists, and I think reading it is the closest thing you can get to therapy with Dr. Schnarch or a therapist trained in his methodology. PM is more anecdotal and aimed more at the general public.<p>In PM, there is a case very much like Ready to Go's minus the A. The W decided she wanted a M without sex, which of course was a problem for the H. It is very interesting to read the narrative of how this was resolved, and it gave me a lot of insight into how and why such a situation develops, so much so that I now tend to suspect the avoider is actually the more highly eroticized partner stuck in an all-or-nothing cycle.<p>I was very much afraid of revealing the scope of my sexuality to my H because I was afraid it would scare him or repel him, not to mention give him power over me. The lower-desire partner ALWAYS controls sex in the M. If I revealed the truth about my sexual appetite and it was greater than his, HE would control sex in the M. The paradox is that you absolutely cannot reach your sexual potential without becoming vulnerable by revealing your true self. So you cut off your nose to spite your face with these types of power struggles.
Bottom line: You will not lure a sexual tigress out of her cave until you reach a higher level of differentiation, i.e. reveal how much you want her and want to be wanted by her. When my H did that by disclosing his A and his desire for me and the M, demonstrating affection in words and actions towards me that I had never seen (the last gasps of what the OW was getting that I never got), it was enough for me to venture out and have an "A" of my own with my H.<p>Unfortunately, he subsequently blew it in many ways, but instead of going back into my shell and avoiding conflict, I stayed transparent and allowed him to see my desire as well as my Love Bank balance in the face of his behavioral choices. When my Love Bank balance got low enough, once again ANY man was more attractive to me than my H, so I told him so. I can only hold my H responsible for choices he makes based upon the information I have given him about myself. If I give him false information or a false impression, then it is my responsibility. And that is all vice versa, of course.
I know what reality is for me, but I can only know his reality if he shares it with me. I can always have intimacy if it is SELF-validated intimacy. Being dependent upon other-validated intimacy is actually a way of avoiding intimacy.

Dont have much time.....been really busy today.<p>Someone asked why I am still married. The only reason is because the OW isnt ready to leave her marriage....if she did I would be gone too. I probably should have gotten a divorce a long time ago.<p>Yes my W does know I am considering divorce...she knows I have been to see my attorney 2 times.<p>gotta go...please keep posting....thanks.

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

ready to go,<p>The question "why am I still married" and more importantly "why did I marry her" are very important questions. Try to put away your hurt to truly answer this question. To do this is kind of like stubbing your toe in the middle of the night and trying to sing a happy song, but give it a try. I know it is possible because I did it. <p>IMHO: You can not move on to making any decisions until you have answered this question. Without the answer you will never be sure whether or not you made the right decision keeping in mind that the only two decisions are "do I stay and make my marriage work", or "do I get a divorce". There is some middle ground here, but it is not healthy either of you. <p>The day after I found out about my WW's affair (d-day), I, (prompted by a friend of mine), asked myself thess very same questions. It was almost impossible to answer until I put all the pain and agony aside. I searched my feelings and went back in time in my mind back to when we were happy, back to our first date, back to why I married my wife. I went through and listed in my mind the reasons. My WW is very attractive, she has a great bubbly personality, she is always fun to be around, .... I kept this list in my mind and realized I could not find another women that would be this for me. I looked around and thought about all the women I have know, and I could not think of an equal. Searching my feelings even more, even though we had been hardly talking for about two years, I still loved my wife. I did not care about whether or not she had an affair or how mean and insensitive she had been to me. I knew who she was and I knew in my heart that I loved her, and began to see in the next few months that I loved her unconditionally. I do not get hung up with how terrible she made me feel and how crappy she is making me feel now, I knew that we had been great in the past and that she did fill all my needs, and that is why I married her. <p>Think back in your life and look around at other women. Find what it was that gave you interest in your wife. She has not changed, your interest and your relationship has. You are strangers to each other, and strangers do not know how to make each other feel better. To top it all off, the strangers are holding back feelings of resentment and anger at each other making it even more difficult for the strangers to know each other again.<p>All the other things we do to make each other feel better in life are just mechanics. It is learning to live together and learning what how to please each other. Since we go through changes in our lifes, this is a continual process. A friend told me that he has seen a seven year pattern in people, and that changes occur roughly every seven years. This means that you must continually learn how to please each other in a relationship. <p>Take some time to yourself and think about these things and post your feelings about this. It is healthy to express things on paper. It clears the mind and helps us to remember and express our feelings.

Honora,<p>I can tell this bothers you a lot. I feel it is very similar to what you experienced with your H. I am offended that you think I am lying. I know I should not have had an A. But I did, cant change that. What I dont understand is that I worked very hard at my marriage for years and years, I was always the first to work on anything in our marriage that was broken. And didnt mind as long as I knew she still cared. Then it got to the point to where I felt she didnt care any more....as that point arrived I worked even harder. She started working outside the home only 5 years ago. Until then she was a stay at home mom. Many times I was home for lunch with her, during the winter it was almost every day. After she started working outside the home I would meet her for lunch....almost every day. I also took over many more of the household responsibilities. All of this was a privilidge to do for her and me. Until I started feeling rejected, completely. She finally got to where she would not even let me hold her hand. Never telling me why. That is when my feelings changed for her. One year ago. Now I must KNOW that she cares for me, and that she wants ME. She has initiated 3 hugs in the last year....with me telling her that is what I NEED....or maybe its just what I want. PLEASE IF THAT IS ASKING TOO MUCH FOR A MARRIED COUPLE TO DO.....TELL ME. I have told her I will need lots of affection before I can be sexual with her again. She asked why I didnt want to be sexual...I said because I was hurt so much. She didnt respond to that, I believe its because she knows how much I have been hurt.<p>Someone asked what attracted my W and I to each other. I would have to say it was her making me feel like a very special person. We started dating after she told a friend she wanted to go out with me, she would call me all the time, sent me cards and letters, bought me special gifts, and always complimented me. Several years ago I asked her what attracted her to me. She said it was that I was entraprineral, and had dreams of having a successful business. During the last year she said that is what she has grown to despise about me. I guess since she doesnt make me feel special any more is why I have lost feelings for her too.<p>Thanks<p>[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: ready to go ]</p>

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>