Readytogo,<p>Your story really interests me because I see alot of your wife in my WW. My WW came from a broken family and her mother does not know how to love and show affection. I am not sure if this has anything to do with it. After you first posted, I started paying attention to my WW actions and started remembering about what she is like when it comes to affection. You see affection is my top EN. <p>I initiate almost all affection. I have to go to hug her or kiss her or even to just cuddle. She rarely intitiates anything. She tries to sit far away from me at all times. When we sit down for dinner with family and friends she finds a spot way off. <p>I hope this changes when she begins to love me again. This just hurts real bad so I know how you feel. This was going on way before the affair and I think she may have been always like this. It just is so hard to tell now. I hope you find what you are looking for. Good luck.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: dreamland ]</p>

Wounded2673,<p>It sounds like you still have lots of anger for what your H did. I think your misunderstanding my point about all the things my W does. She has no problem applying herself to other things. Why can she not spend some time with me? I admit if I were to make the first move then she would respond. Why do I always have to be the one to make the first move. It does get very tiring. Especially when you reach out to someone and all you get is rejection. I know you may be thinking that she does everything and I have never done anything. I have been noticing for the last several weeks that she never makes her bed. Neither does my daughter. I do every morn. I used to make "our" bed when I slept in it. <p>But then with your attitude you will probably just think its because she is too busy.<p>I am not the one that said I spoiled her....even though I tried. She is the one that told others that I did. She never has told me that, most of the time she never even said thank you. The last time I bought her a gift for no reason at all she just said that it wasnt the type she normally used. This last Christmas she didnt get me anything at all. Yesterday she went shopping while I worked in the yard, and went to visit my nephew while she was gone. When I got home she was back....she NEVER said a word to me.....went to her room and closed the door.<p>What am I to do. If I force her to spend time with me then I feel like she is doing it because I demand it, and it isnt genuine. If I wait for her to make the first move...then nothing happens. <p>Also she has not been back to MB and has only read HNHN that one night when we looked at it together.<p>WHAT DO I DO?

WHAT DO I DO?<p>We gave you our advice. You don't appear to want to take it. What would you have US do? Tell you something else? Tell you what you want to hear?<p>*shrug* I will make it easy on you then. You stated that you would be with the OW right now if she was willing to be with you -- that you would be long gone. Fine then. Leave you wife now, quit waiting around. Prove your love to the OW by picking her. Perhaps she is waiting for you to do the same. If you really love the OW, show her by giving up entirely on the marriage.<p>All this "fence-sitting" is juvenile. **** or get off the pot. Either take our advice on how to recover your marriage and stop whinning about what your wife is doing, or go be with the OW. You really have little else to chose from. I can PROMISE you nothing you can do, short of telling the truth about who and what you are (and getting both of you into counseling) is going to change your wife and marriage. You can either continue to live this way - sitting on the fence and complain about all the faults of your wife or you can be a man and do the right thing (either leave your M or start being honest).

Yeah, pretty much what he ^ said. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In a nutshell?
1. Plan A your a$$ off.
2. Write a no contact letter to the OW.
3. Read everything on the MB web-site, including the books recommended by the forum members (Dobson, Schnarch, etc.)
4. Pray.
5. See a counselor (preferably Steve or Jennifer Harley).

If you want to stay married, and want to have a FULFILLING marriage, these steps are NOT a guarantee, but your best chance to get there. Anything else will leave you in limbo-land, and will continue hurting yourself and all the people around you.<p>'sup to you.<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Your W's behavior as you describe it sounds completely typical of a BS who suspects their WS is in love with someone else. I acted the same way, and I'm sure many others did as well until they decided to focus on themselves and follow a different plan. It is very normal self-protective behavior.<p>If YOU want to feel loved and wanted, how on earth do you think your W feels? She has been rejected beyond anything you've ever experienced. She was replaced by another person, and by your own admission, you still want that other person. Would YOU spontaneously pursue a woman who wanted another man?<p>It is only fair to look at the situation AS IT IS instead of how you think you have deceived her. Is it really rational to have the sense of entitlement you have? Why are you entitled to your W's affection when you are committed to another woman? It is not really fair to set her up to fail and then to condemn her for failing. You have a full deck; she does not. How can she possibly have a fair chance?<p>You're expecting her to deal with a situation you are refusing to acknowledge to her. How can she possibly do that?<p>[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>

I only started my A after years of feeling rejection from my W. <p>Thanks everyone for the advice.<p>I am moving out Thursday.

Moving out but not ending the marriage?<p>Are you still fence-sitting?<p>If you are ending the marriage, at least give your wife the respect of the truth. At least let her know that there are other circumstances that lead to the breakup of the relationship and that she is not totally to blame. If you live in a no fault state, you have nothing to lose by telling her to truth if you do decide on divorce.<p>If all you are doing is moving out, you are just moving to a different spot on the fence. My guess is you are unwilling to end it with your wife because you fear to be alone and you still care deeply for your wife (dispite your recent actions). Perhaps it is good for you to be alone, out of your house for a while. Perhaps it will help you to come to term with your behavior and to take ownership for it. You still blame your wife for the A, "only had the A after being rejected." Come on, that is nonsense. You chose to have an A when you could have chosen to get divorced, to enter counseling, etc. You made the wrong choice, plain and simple. No amount of rejection from your wife will ever justify it or make it ok.<p>Tell me if a judge would buy this statement, "I did not murder anyone until after many years of being rejected." Stop the blame game, take ownership for what you did - your wife is not to blame for your actions and choices. She is to blame for her part in poisoning the relationship to the point were you became vulnerable to such but you own your own behavior, not her.

I ... started my A...<p>Yes, that is correct. Nothing else is relevant. It does not matter if you started after September 11, if you started after Christmas, if you started it after a mid life crisis, or if you started after the death of a child. The fact is that YOU started it. No one made you do it.

ReadytoGo:<p>PLEASE give your wife this website address before you leave. She's going to need alot of support, understanding and help...if she can't get it from her husband, at least she can get it from us. <p>PLEASE...come out of your fog long enough to at least do that one thing for her.<p>at peace

My wife has this address....has visited it 1 time after me pleading with her to do so...has not been back to it in 10 days.<p>I have decided that I cannot make her do somethig she doesnt want or need to do.<p>I know you think I am being selfish and maybe I am, but how can I believe she has feelings for me if she cannot show me. <p>I dont think some of you understand that this has been going on for years. It finally got to the point that I gave in to the A. I know I should not have done that....but I did. She should not have rejected me....but she did. The only way I will be convinced that she cares is if she approaches me. I know it will take time. I believe moving out will get her attention. Yes I do care for my W very much. I do not love her as I once did, but do think it would be possible to get that back. I know I am not doing things the way everyone suggests....I also know plan A didnt work either...that is what I was doing before I even knew it had a name to it.<p>I will keep everyone posted. May be a few days before I reply back.<p>Thanks.

Ready:<p>I really do wish the best for you and your wife in this situation. Believe it or not, everyone has been trying to help you avoid even more pain and devastation. I guess you've decided to take another road, but I still hope it leads to recovery for your marriage. <p>Please keep us posted...we care.<p>at peace

I know you think I am being selfish and maybe I am, but how can I believe she has feelings for me if she cannot show me. <p>Maybe she DOESN'T have feelings for you right now. When my wife was having an A, she withdrew from me. I began to fall out of love with her. Again, you seem determined to be more concerned with what your wife does or does not do instead of your own growth.<p>Nothing wrong at all with wanting to be loved (emotionally and physially). I want the same from my wife but there is NOTHING either of us can do besides be good husbands that will help them change. They must change on their own. No amount of begging, pleading, demanding, or lack of understanding on our part will change it. Additionally, it does not MATTER if we understand. It is our lot in life to ACCEPT and to be PATIENT with their growth. The second you start being more concerned with your own behavior and stop whinning about hers will the be second you start to experience growth and maturity.<p>I don't see you as selfish. You desperately want to be loved. I see you as perhaps lacking maturity and refusing to take ownership for your own actions.<p>Her is a request for you. Try giving us a reply, a post that has nothing to do with your wife's behavior and has only to do with your's. What did you do wrong? Why did you chose the actions you took (and no, no because you were not loved). Why are you refusing to be honest with your wife?<p>I dont think some of you understand that this has been going on for years. <p>No, I don't think you understand that no amount of justification on your part will make a difference. You have no special circumstance I am sorry to say. There honestly are dozens of people on this site that could tell you stories that would make you heart freeze and shatter at the level of depravity they either went to or their spouse went to -- and many have taken the necessary and extremely difficult steps to recovery. I feel for you, I really do. I cannot comprehend what it must have been like for all those years. You have my simpathy for such. But, you and only you decided on the course of action that resulted in an affair. You did have other options. You have other options now. You can continue to make poor decisions (in my opinion), or you can decided to grow as a man and a human being.<p>Why is it so difficult for you to be honest with your wife?<p>It finally got to the point that I gave in to the A. <p>Nonsense. Are you telling us the OW took your clothes off and forced you and you simply could not resist any longer? Come on! Take responsibility for your actions. How did it happen? Did you seek her out? DId you initiate physical contact? Did she? What is the truth of it?<p>I know I should not have done that....but I did. She should not have rejected me....but she did. <p>So, I guess that makes it OK that you had an affair then. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] This is not about your wife. This is about you. You can keep repeating that mantra, "if only she would have..." but that dog won't hunt. To be honest, I am having a difficult time not getting emotionally involved in this process. You seem so damned determined to blame your wife.<p>The only way I will be convinced that she cares is if she approaches me. <p>Selfish Demands
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3404_selfish.html<p>You have set up a scenario that will get you want you likely want, your wife's failure to meet your demands (demands you likely will not communicate honestly), so that you can then justify you leaving her. I can see it now, "Well, she would not do XYZ so she did not love me so I left her...." My guess is you suffer from Disrepectful Judgements as well. I know I suffered (and still do at times) from both.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html<p>I know it will take time. I believe moving out will get her attention. <p>Oh yes, it will tell a lot. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Just think of what you could accomplish with honest communication instead of these childish temper-tantrums (don't be confused, that is exactly what it is - you are trying to get her to notice you, you are behaving selfishly to get what you want). It takes one to know one. I used to do them too. "I will show her. She won't make love to me then I will just cut off my affection to her. That will show her just how wrong she is/was."<p>Yes I do care for my W very much.<p>You do? Then act like it. You think moving out, and continueing to lie to her is a sign of care?<p>I do not love her as I once did, but do think it would be possible to get that back. <p>
My wife's counselor gave her a pie chart on her to help her recover her love for me. My wife's borken record was, "I just don't feel it." Her counselor told her that she would never feel it until she started to act it. The pie chart was made up of three equal portions: acting, thinking and feeling. If you have agreement in two portions, the third will eventually follow. Feelings are things you cannot control. They are the wild card. So, instead of trying to control your feelings, you instead control your thinking and your acting. Eventually, with consistent behavior, the feeling should start to be there as well. My wife was stuck, at the time, of acting on her feelings instead of acting on her thinking. What resulted was no improvement and my wife telling herself that it was no use (of course it was, she was doing nothing different and expecting something to change).<p>Instead, we now both try to act on thinking and not feeling. There are times when the last thing I was to do is be loving to my wife. That is my feeling. Instead of acting on that, I act on my thinking - the more rational response. I find that when I do so, it quickly quells whatever negative feelings I might have been having and it has dramatically helped me to regain my lost love for my wife. We still have a long way to go but at least we are doing the necessary hard work to get there. I cannot promise we will fully recover but we know that such is possible with hard work.<p>I know I am not doing things the way everyone suggests....I also know plan A didnt work either...that is what I was doing before I even knew it had a name to it.<p>You sure plan A did not work? Please, tell us what was your plan A? Far too many people have a misapplication of plan A. I know I did. I would not be surprised if you did not do it correctly. It is not easy to do, especially when you continue to lie to your wife (being honest would be a necessary part of plan A - that you did not do).<p>I will keep everyone posted. May be a few days before I reply back.<p>Take your time. Perhaps do some serious soul-searching. Please, enter into counseling. Maybe you don't like us "armchair counselors" and our advice. It comes from people that have been there, done that. Perhaps you would be more willing to follow the advice of a professional. I am here to tell you, the two of us seem very much alike in many ways. I cheated on my girl friend, now wife, in a ONS that I was too guilty to even finish. I kept it from her for nearly five years (and it happened years before we were married). So, I know all about the desire not to tell.<p>Eventually I grew up, emotionally and spiritually and I told her. It took her having an A and leaving me before I realized just how important honesty was. In the end, I decided that I cared for her so much that I would rather her know the truth and leave me for good than for me to deny it from her -- to control her and the relationship -- with my lie.<p>We are simply asking you the be emotionally and spiritually strong enough to be honest, to take ownership, and to do what is necessary. You obviously want your marriage but it appears that you are scared (and rightfully so - I know I was) of what will happen once you start being real.<p>Good luck and we will see you in a few days.

Well, if your W's anything like me, and some of what you describe sounds familiar to me, then she may take your moving out the way I took my H's moving out: The End.<p>You are not entitled to anything from your W. YOU put HER away and entered into a R with a third party. There is nothing more rejecting than that--YOU are the ultimate rejector. Nothing short of a secret affair of her own could top your method of rejection. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Do you honestly see yourself as the victim?<p>What you're not understanding or maybe what you're refusing to accept is that BOTH of you got the M to where it was. You are both responsible for the state of the M PRE-A. Once you set the A in motion, however, you are solitarily responsible for the state of the M from that point forward. You cannot hold your W responsible for a choice that you made of which she was not informed or given the chance to consent to. You've had all the pieces to the puzzle for the last year, and she has not. Why are you expecting her to walk when you've cut her legs out from under her?<p>The plain facts are that when infidelity enters the picture, it is like a big pile of sh** on top of all the pre-A problems, and unless and until you shovel that sh** off that YOU dumped there, there will be no resolution to any of the pre-A issues. The A trumps EVERYTHING else and has to be dealt with first to have any chance of addressing any of the other issues adequately.<p>You have confirmed all of her worst fears! You do not love her. All of her fear of rejection has been validated. Why would she go back for more without some measure of safety being offered? Without empathy, your M stands no chance. Very sad. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The only thing more painful than growing is NOT growing. Those of us who have learned that have learned it the hard way; why don't you want to learn from our mistakes? Do you really know better than our collective experience? We don't pull this stuff out of our a$$es. We have lived it, every single agonizing minute of it, and have put our blood, sweat, and tears into it. Our hope in sharing here is to PREVENT unnecessary pain and heartache.<p>Don't be surprised if your W accepts your rejection and moves on with her life. That would be the only rational thing for her to do. I did it, and the only thing that turned me around was my H's self-confrontation and self-disclosure. There was nothing else worth looking back at before that. A cheating husband is not attractive. A strong, honest, repentant, humble, empathic man is.

I tried, and tried. Then I pulled away. I did this because of advice of friends and family that knew the situation first hand. Obviously wasnt very good advice. <p>I met OW...didnt seek her out nor did she seed me out....I admit that I spent more time with her than I should...we have lots in common. I didnt know the right terminology at the time...but I was having needs met.....then EA became PA. <p>No she didnt grab me and remove my clothes and seduce me nor I her. It was a very gradual thing, that happened. As it happened I didnt fight it, I dont think she did either. There are very many needs each of us met for each other. <p>We have not been sexual in over a month. We have been together many times in the last month also. We talk for hours a day. Most of the time we are holding kissing and hugging....very many hugs. Deep compassionate hugs. We compliment each other over and over....express our feelings as best as we can, verbally. We both feel we have a oneness with each other, we never have experienced before.....EVER. <p>There no mention of W, I know I could have chosen not to have an A, but I did. To be honest I am not sure if I had it all to do over if I would do much different. I probably would get divorced first. I know that is rude and crude. Im just being honest. As I have in every post preceeding this one.<p>I know this will really blow some minds. I am a born again christian, been a SS teacher, SS director, Deacon, founding memeber of a new church. With very strong convictions against adultry. I know me better than anyone on earth. I WAS THE LAST PERSON ON EARTH THAT WOULD EVER HAVE AN AFFAIR. Never did I think this would happen....never did I think I would consider divorce. What changed.....?????<p>I think it was a deep desire to have needs met.<p>Maybe I am wrong.<p>Thanks again everyone.....especially Mr Bunky. I know all of you do care. You have given me more time than anyone except for OW lately.<p>Later.

RTG,<p>You know I have been reading this post and I keep thinking. If someone came here and described how your W has acted over the years and behaved to you, the very first thing everyone would suggest is that she is having an affair.<p>I also note that it appears that her rejecting you seemed to coincide with her starting back to work. ( I might be wrong. ) Suggesting again that she now felt independent enough to reject you without fear. Her more recent behaviors suggest to me that <p>1. She feels it is over and is glad YOU are going to make the move.<p>2. She may suspect the affair, but doesn't really care because : she wants to move on anyway or because she had an affair at some point and never recovered from it.<p>All this leads me up to my question. Everyone is focussing on your affair. I think it is irrelevant. The real issue is you have failed to be honest with your W for many many years. You have not told her how deeply you resent her treatment of you. How little you respect her as your W. You have not told her you don't like her essentially castrating you.<p>So the affair is YOUR fault but not for the reason you suspect. IT is your fault because you have been dishonest with your W. There is a post by 2Long about "measured honesty" which is advocated by many counselors apparently. This very strange concept states that a WS should only tell of the affair if caught and even then only as little as one can get away with, because after all this is a painful process and the BS shouldn't be hurt.<p>I will tell you what I sense in your post. You don't have the guts to divorce your W although you have wanted to for years. You have not been willing to tell her how lousy a job she has done at being your W, so you have gotten a comensurate level of affection. Now you will also have to face the fact for the rest of your life that you also broke your vows from your wedding.<p>My suggestion? Get honest, get "radically honest" with your W. Tell her all you hate about her, how she has failed you, and about your affair. Then ask her a very simple question: "Having heard all of this, do you even care that it has happened or this is the way I feel?" If the answer is NO, then file for divorce. If it is yes, then I think both of you need some very very serious counseling.<p>Frankly RTG I came here because my W was behaving a lot like yours. I learned a lot, tried a lot of things and three + years later things are better. It took a lot of attitude changing on my part, but it also took my W's stopping her rejection of me.<p>I know this is marriage builders but IF you cannot talk to your W then divorce her, if she doesn't want to address her role in things divorce her, if she cannot handle the affair, divorce her. There seems to be only a narrow window here and it will only work IF you take on "radical honesty" with your W.<p>IT IS TIME, RTG. It is definitely time for you to talk and be honest with your W. I truely hope you are and that she will decide to work with you on the marriage.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: Please don't say you don't feel your religion accepts divorce. You have already stated that if OW would leave with you, you would file for divorce. So the act of filing for divorce is no longer an issue. You can and you would have filed, so that means you should do it for the RIGHT reason this time. The only issue is whether the RIGHT reason really exists or it is just a figament of the lack of honesty in your marriage.<p>I know this sounds harsh but frankly in my mind your situation seems very straight forward one as these things go. That doesn't mean this is easy to deal with.

Wow..I really don't have too much to add...Everyone has given you great advice..What you do with it will show who you really are..You already know the right thingto do, RTG..NOW DO IT...Want your marriage? FIGHT for it...Don't want your marriage? LEAVE!!!<p>You say you no longer love your Wife,,,and I think you are fooling yourself.You WANT and NEED from her...you allowed the status-quo in your marriage to exist for years of her rejection...You will never convince anyone here that this is a good reason for betrayal...It's like scorekeeping...Well, SHE did this to ME..So I will do THIS to HER!! WHO WINS??? Not you , your W or your OW...<p>Either she knows about what you are doing or she is having an affair of her own... Don't YOU want to know what is true? What if she is betraying you and giving all that affection you want to someone else...It STILL doesn't justify what you are doing..Two wrongs don't make a right..<p>You say you are there for her,always,that she says you spoil her...when are you conducting the affair then..During work hours? The hours of talking and hugging happen when? When your W is doing what?

<p>[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: hanora ]</p>

readytogo,<p>It is amazing how judgemental people can be.<p>Please do not give up. I think I will hang in myself, but I can not help feeling like quitting now. I guess I just need a Plan A break.<p>I think it is a bad mistake to leave. There are turning points in our lifes that we must seek God's wisdom in. If any there is a defining moment in a persons's life, this is it. You know what God would do. You know how God would act, and you know what the right thing to do is.

I know this will really blow some minds. I am a born again christian, been a SS teacher, SS director, Deacon, founding memeber of a new church. With very strong convictions against adultry. I know me better than anyone on earth. I WAS THE LAST PERSON ON EARTH THAT WOULD EVER HAVE AN AFFAIR. Never did I think this would happen....never did I think I would consider divorce. What changed.....?????<p>Nothing changed. You are human just as everyone else is. No amount of bible reading or going to church is going to (specifically) protect your marriage. You and your wife suffer from a huge lack of communication.<p>I bet you don't know yourself as well as you think. You likely thought that your willpower was your protection -- that you were too holy or spiritual to commit adultry. Those of this mindset are at the greatest risk because they fail to see their own frailty. They fail to take the necessary precautions to protect their marriage because they think they would never do such. My counselor has told me that he sees just as many deacons, priests, and pastors for infidelity as he does any other profession. I have read half a dozen different stories on this site of infidelity within the church.<p>Was the OW a parishoner? Is she a member of the church? I would not be surprised if she was. *shrug*<p>I think it was a deep desire to have needs met.<p>Maybe I am wrong.<p>Nope, you are probably very correct. Where you went wrong (and where many of us went wrong) is instead of exhausting all means of getting your needs met in marriage (the more difficult choice to be sure), you turned to an easy out. It is far easier to have an affair and have your needs met by someone with little expectation and commitment than it is to turn to your spouse, whom you share the good and the bad, and attempt to have your needs met within marriage.<p>Thanks again everyone.....especially Mr Bunky. I know all of you do care. You have given me more time than anyone except for OW lately.<p>You are very welcome. I challenge you to turn away from the OW. If you are as spiritual as you profess, I should not have to waste any time "preaching" to you about what the consequences of sin are and how God views adultery.<p>Please, end your relationship with the OW, completely. How your soul must ake at the pain of this secret sin. God loves us while in the midst of our sin but he loves us too much to leave us there.<p>You know this is wrong. Regardless of the outcome of your marriage, regardless if you ever chose to be honest with your wife (you still have not told us why you wont tell her), you know the wrongness of your relationship with the OW. You know it should end. You likely know that it is God's will that it end. If your relationship with the OW is meant to be, it can wait until the two of you can come together in holy matrimony. This is not how God intended you to live.

Judgemental?? EXCUUUUSE ME? Dreamland...dude...this man is no different than the one who SLEPT WITH YOUR WIFE. And you think that those who are pouring out their hearts and souls to him to try to get him to see the light are being JUDGEMENTAL? Did I miss something? I think he's recieved VALID and TRUE advise...and given back excuses and validation for what he's done. His marriage stood a chance once upon a time...but he's sealed its doom by his expectations from his wife. Meanwhile he's sleeping with your wife because she makes him feel all better even though she won't leave you. Oh wait...he isn't the one sleeping with your wife? You think it makes any difference?