Don't you just love that fog-talk, WH is really helping us BS's prove that fog-ese really does exist and has a common thread amongst all WS's. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> His response, which I guess is no, is when am I going to find a f/t job (big issue) and treat him with dignity/respect? and WH said as of right now, he is not dating her to prove to me that the failure of
our relationship has nothing to do with her. <hr></blockquote><p>Those are good ones! Need to add them to the list. OK, do you see the pattern here, there is a cycle that seems to be repeating itself over and over. You Plan A, you do really good for a while, then something happens and the 2 of you fight. When you get angry, you make demands (LB), in this case, telling him to stop seeing OW for a while and work on the M. WH gets angry and says its over, that he cant go back to the M ever, because "its all your fault". If I'm not mistaken, that is the exact same pattern that happened when you argued in the parking lot a few weeks ago. WH knows this pattern and is expecting you to act the way you did, that's why he was ready with the return salvo, using the eye for an eye defense. Next time you get into this situation, have a response that he isn't expecting, something to knock the wind out of his sails. Remember when your kids were about 2 and you tried to argue with them about something, it was a futile effort, wasnt it, well, no difference between a 2 year old and WH.<p>Now, listen to what Mr. Bunky says and apply it here. Michelle Davis talks about cheeseless tunnels and that is the exact same thing that Dr. Phil is talking about. I think that one of the problems you are facing is that you separated right before DDay which makes it real difficult for the WS to notice your Plan A efforts. It also keeps him from seeing the pain, turmoil and suffering you are going through since he bailed out prior to you finding out.<p>So, it aint workin' for ya'. Now what are you going to do about it, whats your plan? What are your boundaries, what are you willing to accept from WH and from yourself, in the current situation? Maybe give us some ideas on what you are going to do and we can help you formulate a new direction for you to take. No one expects you to be superhuman, and given the circumstances, I think you are doing great, be proud of that.

Hi. We do have a destructive pattern going. I don't know whether to back-away (like tough love) or do modified Plan A as suggested. I really don't know what to do? Still schedule counseling? He'll go.
I'm going to think about it for awhile.
-cs

Hi. No phone calls today for either of us. He didn't even call to see how daughter was doing after dental surgery. In a strict Plan A, would you have not asked if OW was at his house last night? He is probably with her tonight too. No, I am not going to ask. I think for the rest of the week I will exchange kids through my mom when I can.
Nothing is going for me here: time, his roommate, my actions, Ow's interest in him. I don't stand a chance at putting this back together. He absolutely refuses to budge an inch or give me any indication of anything. It's like hitting my head against a brick wall. All day I've been trying to figure out a workable course of action. I don't have one. So, if talking to him doesn't work, Plan A doesn't work, what I am really left with is no contact.
LRS-I know you don't think it's time for Plan B but today, with the absolute commitment in my mind that I was not going to call him-no matter what-I didn't. I think maybe it's best I let this go.
-CS

The roller coaster ride is the worst you can be on. After he left the first time, his B-day was a couple of weeks later, he stopped by for cake and ice cream, then left. The next day, all his friends and OW were partying it up at the bar. A couple of months later, he moved in with OW. Now he and I are married. I wish I would have found MB sooner, and maybe he would not have another OW, (maybe her again). I know it hurts to be left out, and you want to scream "WHY???", come hear and vent.

Cant sleep I feel your pain. I am so sorry. Don't you hate it when you think you're doing well and feel like you blew it. Listen, you're only human. You aren't perfest. You are dealing with an extremely messed up situation the best you can. Do the counseling. If for any other reason for yourself. He is the one that is losing out. You are a strong capable woman. Do you have any close friends to lean on during this time? Have you let yourself have a good cry lately? I start feeling hopeless then I call my best friend or my Mom and have a little tear jerker pity party for myself for a few hours then I actually feel better. I worry that you are holding too much in. Let it out. Pound a pillow. Watch a sad movie. Watch a happy movie. Blow off steam. It helps clear the head so to speak. I just usually do it with someone else around. The H is being a jerk. Those fog induced stupidity fits are something aren't they? He is only looking out for himself right now and I know you've heard this a thousand times but look out for number one. You.
Be safe and be strong. Draw strength from here and please stop berating yourself. We all think you are wonderful. I think it is time you saw that too. Don't give up and keep us posted.
Hugs to you!!!!!!
Layli

I'm gonna get tough with you here... I hope that you understand. An old-timer did this for me and I will be forever grateful.<p>YOU HAVE NOT DONE A PLAN A... yet anyway... enough to know if it will be effective...<p>Have you read "LoveBusters?" Do you, or can you determine what YOUR lovebusters are? Have you ELIMINATED THEM?<p>Are you FOCUSING ON YOU? Have you determined what things you desire in your life? How you may have contributed to the environment of your marriage? WHAT YOU DESIRE TO CHANGE ABOUT YOU.<p>YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET HIM TO COME BACK TO YOU.<p>Not.<p>You have to SHOW him that it is SAFE and that you understand YOUR part in all this and YOU ARE SERIOUS about change. NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS. NO DISCUSSING OW.<p>YOU.<p>What he does IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
What YOU do CANNOT BE ABOUT HIM.<p>You can be right. You can be married. You can't always be both. You are right... but in being right... that is ALL YOU GET... being right. And being right doesn't get you held in the middle of the night.<p>Get out those books. Write your heart out. Are you seeing an individual counselor? GET TO WORK ON YOU. <p>Really big hugs... please know this comes from someone who cares.<p>Cali<p>*addition* I took this off a post in the P & C board... it was written by K a valued old-timer:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Plan A is most conveniently described in Harley's book "Surviving an Affair". It is a first step in behavioral plan for the betrayed spouse to attempt to save their marriage, normally applied during an active (ongoing) affair. <p>
am i reading right that we are suppose to feel partly responsible for the H having the affair...b/c we didnt fullfill some need?
<p>What you're reading is one interpretation. Let me address it from another POV. Your husband had an affair. What was the state of the marriage up to that point of the affair? Most times---affairs happen in troubled marriage. That's not an excuse to have an affair, but it's a fact---one of the ways to affair-proof a marriage is to have a happy marriage with romantic love between husband and wife, in which the general rules of Care (meeting needs), Protection (avoiding lovebusting), Honesty (complete honesty) and Time (lots of time together doing the above with your spouse) are followed. <p>So, as a betrayed spouse---what are your options? (Steve Harley used to always ask me this when I was counseling with him). You can blame your spouse for the affair and the bad decisions and divorce them. In most cases, that doesn't lead to future success for the betrayed spouse. You can blame and punish the wayward spouse for the affair and stay with them---but that's not going to be a terrific way to rebuild love in the marriage. Or you can attempt to take an objective look at the marriage and any shortcomings you brought to it---and address those shortcomings. Usually focusing on eliminating lovebusters as the first phase, and then working on meeting those emotional needs that your wayward spouse will meet.<p>You do this for a few reasons:<p>1. It's an unexpected response. Most (not all) people who are having an affair will not end it upon discovery (hooray for the ones that do). They're expecting a negative, punishing reaction, and many hope for this as a way to justify themselves. Don't give it to them. You don't approve of the affair (in fact, you should strongly disapprove). But you don't use lovebusters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements). You can't threaten someone out of an affair.<p>2. You attempt to end the affair through negotiation, using the Policy of Joint Agreement and the rules for safe negotiation. Sometimes this works to end the affair. Most times it doesn't---but you're exhibiting new, thoughtful, responsible behavior (all part of setting up Plan B).<p>3. You benefit from learning new marital skills regardless of what happens to the marriage. Most affairs are over within 2 years of discovery. If you can get through this period with some love intact for your spouse, you may be able to rebuild. If you do so in a thoughtful way that doesn't alienate your spouse---there's a better chance for success. You're simply using Plan A to learn and practice good marital behavior (under very difficult circumstances), and you will benefit should you go to Plan B. Or if you end up divorced.<p>In essence, Plan A (and the following Plan B---a no-contact separation that lasts 6-18 months) is a plan for you to learn and heal from this hurt. It gives you the opportunity to learn good marital skills (if you're truly the perfect spouse already, then you probably don't need much time in Plan A). Plan B gives you time to heal from the hurt, and to slowly prepare yourself for divorce. And the two of them together, done under the guidance of a good counselor (like Steve Harley), also give your marriage the best chance for survival and recovery.<p>Isnt the fact that i didnt kick him out the door something h should be grateful for and going out of his way to make me happy?
<p>If your husband is still in the affair (or it's recently over), he's going to still need to go through the withdrawal phase of the affair. That takes some time. And he's only going to be "grateful" to you if you're providing him a safe, loving environment. If you're punishing him---it's not going to work, even if you have "the right". This isn't about being right; it's about rebuilding love, trust, and learning to work together and having both spouse's take responsibility for the marriage, in all aspects.<p>I'd suggest that you call either Steve or Jenn for an appointment (888-639-1639) if you need help with this. An affair is tremendously difficult to get through; it's even tougher when a pregnancy is involved. The two of you can do this---but it's going to take time and patience, and a very good plan.<p><hr></blockquote><p>[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Cali ]</p>

Thank you for your comments. I asked for them and I appreciate your candor. I am still thinking about what I need to do. WH and I have a counseling appt. for am tomorrow. I hope it goes better than the first one-6 weeks ago. I, however, am finally willing to accept Wh's purpose for going- to work on our communication skills and anger with no commitment to the future.
As for my plan, I'll post after more thinking.
Thanks again for your ideas and thoughts.
I need them.
-CS

....bump....<p>hoping you are okay... I have been praying for you...<p>Hugs,
Cali

Hi. We had counseling appt. this am. I'm indifferent to how it went. Counselor did all the talking-If I go back to MC, probably not with him.
I'm having another low day. All counseling did was give me more infor. about OW. I underestimated the relationship and she's smart. Her response to WH's telling her yesterday that he couldn't see her, etc. was "If that's what you need to do to get this through this, OK, I understand."
My thoughts are to that response is WH indicated it was temporary or he was doing it to pacify me. Otherwise, why would it be "to get through this?" He told me yesterday that the only reason that he is not seeing her now is to prove to me that our relationship failed because of us and not her.
Not a very good reason.
I think that I screwed up the last three months by not being able to focus on myself and LB's all the time. I believe that WH is doing this counseling bit to appear to be the good guy for "trying". I have lost my window of opporunity for WH to be interested in again. Watch the actions, right?
Not once has he asked me to do something alone, he spent Mother's Day and part of his birthday with her, etc.
My family/friends, like MB'ers, keep urging me to focus on myself and I haven't been able to. It's not that I don't want to. I haven't been able to.
I think my last really sad days are because reality is hitting. Despite OW's words that he could give up OW easily, I don't believe it. OW is truly better at PLAN A then I am and continues to do well personally and with my husband. I bet she doesn't call him again until he does.
I am going to try so very hard to let go of him. I don't think I'll go to the next counseling session or try to find dfferent counseling. WH's intent on going isn't for healthy reasons and it's holding me "open" for hope.
MB's is indeed the right approach to these situations but my WH's relationship has only increased the past three months as I've been acting desperate.
He knows he has somewhere to go at the end of day. He is risking nothing. She'll be waiting with a smile.
WH actually said he thinks kids are doing better since he left. Can you believe it?
I'm giving up hope today with many tears. Somewhere I have got to dig up some strength and get on with my life. I'm trying.-CS

can't sleep...<p>Yeah... and? Everything you have posted, I thought and posted last year THIS TIME... my H moved out in July... I WAS THE QUEEN OF LBs. I was whiny... dependent... scared... weepy... mad... frustrated... <p>My counselor actually pushed him to make a decision and he chose to move out! And, they (he and PrincessOW) too made a 'pact' not to see each other... so he could prove that it was marriage and NOT her... yeah, right.<p>He also said kids WOULD BE BETTER... he would be a better father... any problems that did occur w/ kids WAS MY FAULT...<p>You have to believe and you have to understand that it is all a part of the script.... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON BETWEEN THEM... he isn't going to tell you if she LBs... my H defended Princess to the hilt... They cannot keep their perfect face on forever... <p>You can't know what no contact w/ her and limited contact w/ you will mean. You can't know where his head is and where it will go. That is why YOU work on YOU and let HIM work on HIM... Don't push the rope.<p>Today is a new beginning. Today you focus on you. Today is a new day. Leave the LBs of the past behind you and start fresh. <p>When I read your posts, it all comes rushing back...all the fear I had... all the despair... don't lose faith... and place all your hopes in God... look for His Will... When you give it all up to Him, you will find peace... <p>Hugs and MORE prayer...
Cali

Thanks for all your support. I am calmer tonight-don't know why-maybe exhausted or that I am starting to really let go. I didn't call WH once today..really good considering how down I am about the MC.
Cali-thanks for your posts. I need them.
I am planning a two week trip with the kids starting next week. I decided that I needed some distance so I could some perspective (sound familar LHS?)-today is a new day and I want to start over fresh. I haven't been able to detach yet and I think it'll help to break some old habits. I'm looking for a f/t job so as soon as that starts I won't have the flexability or time with kids..so I think I might go for it. Alittle scary to drive 24 hrs with kids but I can do it.
Taking the kids to the beach this weekend by myself.
Even my mom (who thinks I'm nuts for acting like I do) thinks I'm crazy to not try to do counseling with WH. It just doesn't feel right -even seeking a new counselor. WH's whole attitude seems so false. Thoughts?
This afternoon I thought I was headed for something-my mom offerred to take the kids for a week-but I feel better. I still don't have a plan but I need some time and distance between WH and me before I can think again.
Thanks all-
-CS

My thoughts are that you give it to God.<p>You ask Him to place people before your WH who will SPEAK to him in honesty and truth. You ask that God give your H ears to hear and eyes to see. You ask God to convict his heart.<p>You praise God for giving you strength and heart and desire to remain married IF it is His Will. You ask him to place people before you who will speak to you in honesty and truth.<p>Before each session you ask God to help you say what needs to be said and that you say it in Love and not in anger or fear.<p>You ENJOY your trip and your CHILDREN!!! <p>Hugs,
Cali

Thank you. I do pray. Making plans to move out of my house when we return from next week's trip. Not telling WH yet. I can't live here with the memories and I think it'll really help me focus on myself. I haven't called WH today! (He hasn't either).
-CS

CS-<p>Life is like the coldest winter
People freeze the tears I cry
Words of hail their minds are into
I've got to crack this ice and fly <p>Gonna hitch a ride
Head for the other side
Leave it all behind
Never change my mind
Gonna sail away
Sun lights another day
Freedom on my mind
Carry me away for the last time<p>For some reason, this verse has always given me some guidance during my whole A mess, it reminds me to let it go and look for the brighter days that are coming. Maybe its time you 'leave it all behind'. Not WH or your M, but this whole A mess and the person your WH is right now. I know once your let it go and let God take care of it, like Cali says, it will get a lot easier.<p>Enjoy your vacation, its just you and your kids, no one else. Use it as a time to be yourself and have no worries, just enjoy who you are. I think you are right that it will give you some new perspectives. Sometimes we get into a rut and need to do something big to get out of it.<p>As far as the MC, if you don't feel comfortable with this person, then by all means find someone else. Not sure what to make of the comment they made, but if the MC is not going to focus on rebuilding the M, then they are not a real MC. The Harleys and Michelle Davis have some excellent guidelines on what to look for in a good MC. If WH wants to join you that's great, but if he doesn't, you keep on going and working on yourself.<p>Remember to expect nothing and you wont be disappointed! WH probably behaved like he should be expected during the MC session. No admissions of guilt, no remorse, no commitment, use the "it isn't about OW, its about our crappy M" line again. Its almost like he had the "Affairs for Dummies" book in front of him and opened to the "Fog talk for the WS" chapter so that he could use it for reference. WH is not the same man you knew and he wont act like it either, that's why you cant expect him to be who you remember him as.<p>What is the status on the separation papers? You need to get those done so that WH can be responsible for his part and you can be legally protected from any unforeseen circumstances. Is it wise to move while the separation is still going? Just be careful, don't move too fast or make any big decisions based solely on emotions. I'm curious as to what he does with the kids when he has visitation? Does he take them to his place, to OW's, his parents, where? No, kids will never be 'ok' with separated or divorced parents, it will affect them for the rest of their lives. WH is just saying these things to try and justify his actions, to make it seem like it isn't a big deal, but you already knew that, didn't you.<p>Give yourself some time and space so that you can do a good Plan A and avoid those nasty LB's. Be strong and stand your ground, you can do this and come out a far better person because of it.

LHS-
I just reread my post. It wasn't clear. The OW told my WH that "She understood he couldn't see her,etc..to get through this..? It doesn't sound like a permanent departure, does it?
I liked the words you wrote.
I am not going to go on vacation next week until all my info for money stuff is at the atty's office so she can proof my work and make recommendations. Then, when I get back, it'll be ready to sign. No, I can't move out until everything's signed.
My WH takes the kids to his house for visitation. Our custody agreement, which is signed and completed, does not allow any other nonrelative, opposite sex person to attend anything with WH or be present with the kids for one year from separation and no overnights with nonrelative, opposite sex guest for one year from date of divorce. So, OW is SOL for two years as far as having visitation with my children.
Hope I'm not sorry that I signed it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Thanks for everything.
-cs

I think the vacation will do you a world of good. He is having such a fog induced stupidity fit right now and you are being hurt. Since my husband is in the fog right now I can't offer too much advice but Knewjie posted on my original thread some old postd from her H. They halped me understand where his mind set might be. Maybe they can help you also. It is on My husbands internet affair. I hope it helps.
You are in my prayers.
Layli

Hi. On my way to the beach. I told WH this morning that I was working on our paperwork, leaving for two weeks next week, and letting go of him. I said when I came back that I wanted a fresh start and I couldn't wait anymore.
My plan is this: I'm letting go of my husband. Completely. I am going to focus on my future, kids and me. As someone originally suggested, approach this as a single mom. I am a single mom and I need to think like one and I'm not going to think about the What if's anymore. It's not happening.
My updates will be about me and the things I'm doing for me.
Thanks all!
-CS

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> She understood he couldn't see her, etc..to get through this.<hr></blockquote><p>To coin a phrase from my all-time favorite movie "Like that's ever going to happen. What a load of (sound of toilet flushing)" See how far in the fog (or somewhere else where its not too sunny) WH's head is? Seems like OW is telling him this stuff and he is eating it up. No, it doesnt sound like a permanent departure, but it sure does sound ridiculous, that's for sure. How long do you think she is willing to wait for him, I mean here is a single woman with money, probably has other guys looking her way, why would she wait for WH to 'get through this'? Eventually she will lose interest in him and find someone else. This relationship has all the makings of a dismal failure, count on it.<p>What I like about your last post is that it has a specific set of goals and a plan on how you are going to achieve them. That is the key to getting through this ordeal and will keep your mind focused on the important things in your life. Take that vacation and enjoy it! Do not let WH ruin it in any way, put some distance between you and him and let him wonder exactly what it is your doing. Don't return calls right away, heck, don't even take any calls unless it involves the kids. When you do talk to WH, be upbeat, be nice and no talk about the A or your M, let him see that you are having a great time without his current state of affairs (pun intended) because you will be! Let him see that you are doing fine without his mess and give him reason to wonder.<p>And might I add, as far as that non-relative part of the custody agreement, YIKES! Talk about putting the screws to someone! Do you honestly think OW is going to stick around and wait for that to go away? How many arguments have WH and OW had on that one!<p>Get that plan into place and stick to it. I noticed that when you make a decision to do something for yourself (limit contact with WH, no talk about the A, don't worry about what WH is doing) you have a very positive attitude and outlook. Get your plan in place and stick to it, hard as it may be. Your doing great CS, look forward to hearing about how great a time you and your kids had on the vacation.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi. I just got home from the beach-had a great weekend (a few sad moments but overall I felt good). Talked to WH once over the weekend-civil call. He just came over to get the kids for Father's Day dinner. He was pleasant-so was I. I think he is suprised that I am doing this trip next week. Good. I am staying with his parents for two days. Ha.
I think the old me is slowly coming back. I used to be take charge and confident...
The only potentially stupid thing I did was this morning and although, it may not be recommended...it has put me in a better spot emotionally. WH wasn't at home this morning when the kids called so I called him at OW's. She answered-Said he wasn't there. Could she take a message for him? I said, No thanks and Hung-up. I called WH on cell phone and asked where he was..at store. I think he was and not with her. I told him that I called her and that I had decided that I was going to be pleasant to him no matter what and in return all I asked for was honesty. Hiding the A just didn't matter anymore.Hmnn.
I said, if you are going to be at OW's, tell me, so the kid's know where to call you. He said OK. Neither one of us were angry. He said he isn't seeing her anymore. Who cares. I'm really not worrying about it anymore.
What the phone call did for me was make her a real person-make me realize she is a game player-(taking a message for him?)-and if that's the type of woman WH wants-he needs to go for it. I have never been a game player and won't start now. For some reason, that phone call was a significant release to me. I wasn't nervous or angry when I asked for him.
I love my husband but I am really going to move on with my future. Tonight I am going to a meeting for Single Parents of NC.
Happy Father's Day!
-CS

Hi. OK, there wasn't anyone at the Single Parents meeting. Is that an omen? Kidding.
WH sent me an e-mail today (new mode of communication for us) and goofed it up-he said it was long-and I got one sentence. I am so curious was it said. Darn it.
He called today twice-house question and kid checkin -except he didn't ask to talk to them. I don't think he is interested in me again but I think he may be wondering what the heck I am up to.
I still feel good today. Can you believe it? I think Letting GO, and Letting God is working.
Night-
-CS