hcii:<p>"Was told after my meeting that one of her closest co-workers has told her that she thinks that she is going too fast with DV. Told her that with all that has happened, and it just being 6 or 7 weeks since, that her opinion was that emotions were too hot and high to be making life-altering decisions. WW did not respond, and I take that as hope."<p>Her coworker is right on the mark, here!<p>" WW normally would have said that her mind was made up. But...she didn't."<p>Right, because her mind is MESSED UP, not made up. Well, maybe it WAS made up from scratch by the aliens!

Well...here is the latest on my situation. Here is a quote from my thread that preceded this one.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To start with, even though my WW says the A is over, Jennifer says she is quite sure that there is still some form of contact between them. Certain Q&A's told her that. Especially the "rapidness" to DV. She thinks that the WW would not be in a rush, if not. She has just changed the method and frequency, etc.<hr></blockquote><p>I have just received concrete evidence that my WW is at least "initiating" contact. If there is indeed still contact between them, I cannot be sure. But I do know that my WW is still trying to have contact. JHC knows her stuff, undoubtedly.<p>This has caused me to take a turn for the worst. Not in that I am less emotionally stable, but I am 99% sure that my LB$ is in the negative. This I know because.........<p>After 2 months of seperation, my WW not showing any signs of wanting to repair the M, taking me to court over frivolous things, and the simple fact that I now KNOW she still WANTS to have contact with OM, I have conceded that my M is irreparable. I truly think that the OM is avoiding her, and if so, it is having an effect of a "Plan B" from him, and getting her attention from that R instead of ours.<p>I have never seen that aspect posted or referred to her, but think about it.....His going into the "no contact" state would tend to have the same effect. Due to the nature of the A ending on my discovering it, I think the WW does not sense it as a LB'er from him, but rather as a result of me. Therefore, her LB$ did not reduce on his end, but it probably did on mine.<p>I have now started concentrating on getting on with my life without her. Anger, to some degree, has set in, and I am in self-preservation mode full force, and will not concede any thing that I have worked for in the past 14 years.<p>If I have learned anything over the past couple of months, I have learned this: Even though an individual can work harder than ever to salvage a broken M, it is a useless cause when you cannot salvage the WS's sense of dignity and morality. I think sometimes that we get so caught up in the "saving" of the M institution itself, that we fail to understand and see the reality that it is impossible to do so, because we cannot control the WS and their actions. Until the WS comes out of the fog, all bets are off.<p>I found myself sinking into that way of thinking. I was going to save my marriage "come hell or high water". Doesn't work that way. I think that sometimes, some of us forget that a marriage is made up of TWO people, and unless BOTH are willing, the cause is lost. Not meaning to rain on anyone's parade here, but we all need to stop and think and ask ourselves if the M is worth it, when we know in our hearts the WS isn't. That may sound harsh, but in my case is what I feel. My WW is not the person I married, and is NOT a person that I wish to be married to.<p>So...until she is to be someone again that I could fall in love with, spending energy and time to hold my marriage together is a waste of time.<p>I have come to accept the fact that at this moment in time, my M is not to be. Therefore, I move on. There may come a time, and all experiences and indications say that eventually the WW will fall back into "reality". But I cannot continue on this course, because I know, too, that enduring any more of this emotional turmoil will change ME, and then even if the WW "comes around", then I no longer want it.<p>Now...time to face the facts, and do what I feel is necessary to satisfy myself. The last 2 years has been all about her. Now it is my turn. Revengeful? Maybe. But my "revenge" will come in forms of dignity. She may not like the fights that I fight, or the things that I will try to accomplish, but that was the risk she was willing to take, when she decided to have the A. She better "have her ducks in a row", because you can bet that I will have mine.<p>The support here has been tremendous. Do not take it that I will not be posting anymore, because maybe, just maybe, I will need a little more insight on things, and may be able to offer some other person a small piece of advice along the way.<p>Thanks to all, again. I truly hope that somewhere things will look better and more hopeful for deserving people in situations such as mine.<p>God Bless<p>hcii

Hey there hcii,<p>Yeah, it's tough to know contact continues...<p>One thing I will note, not trying to influence you in any way, just pointing out an observation...<p>Your D-day was only a matter of what, 2 months ago now? That's nothin' in A terms. I know that KY's Dv laws are majorly messed to allow for a Dv so soon... because in most other places, you'd be on a much slower train... it's a train a lot of us have been on a for LONG time.<p>And it really does take a LONG time for the A to die naturally. I know SAA says most end in less than 6... and maybe that's true... maybe here on the site we see the "exceptions" a lot more, because those short lived ones - the people just get on with things.<p>I don't know... I think you COULD possibly have more of a chance to recover than it seems today. Given 5, 10, 12 months - who knows? But that's a problem for me... and sounds like you, too. Because we aren't getting any younger, we're suffering untold pain, and the WS doesn't seem to care. I can't believe I've lasted as long as I have, anyhow. But it's all about what you can live with, what pace of personal recovery you can handle. Sounds like you're going to be just fine.<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> But that's a problem for me... and sounds like you, too. Because we aren't getting any younger, we're suffering untold pain, and the WS doesn't seem to care. I can't believe I've lasted as long as I have, anyhow. But it's all about what you can live with, what pace of personal recovery you can handle. Sounds like you're going to be just fine.
<hr></blockquote><p>J.R.:<p>If I could see just one "inkling" of a chance, I probably would look at things differently. But...there is absolutely NOTHING coming from the WW to tell me otherwise.<p>I have seen in my days a lot of people change. I have been in mid-level management, and have had the opportunity to analyze people and respond to such situations. For some reason, my WW has totally become someone else. She took the drastic change after D-day (not before). She has even gotten worse since she filed.<p>I mean....she is nowhere NEAR the same person she was. Smart-aleck remarks, copping attitudes, and the overall sarcasm she showed me when we were still talking was 180 degrees unlike her.<p>I really think that she is "possessed". I know that is one of the characteristics of a WS in the fog, but it has finally become too much for me to handle. I know that I do not love "her".<p>Maybe she will become the original loving person she was in time. But she has not given any indication that she will. I also think that even if the A is over, it has ended one-sidedly, meaning that the OM has ended it, and she will pursue it for quite some time. She will not take the rejection from him well. She will place the blame of rejection on me, I am sure, and I think she already has.<p>Couple that with the fact that in one of our last lengthy conversations that she reiterated to me that she would always love me and care for me, but that she was in love with OM, and that was the way it was. Told me I needed to give up.<p>One thing that really bothers me, that I have never talked about on the board, is the fact of him being married, also. It bothers me that she does not care to assist in destroying another family with a 4-year old child involved. Maybe it's just me, but that is something that irritates the heck out of me. She has acknowledged the fact that the child will suffer because of this, yet she still carries on with her selfishness. I can forgive her for what she has done to me, but I cannot forgive her for what she did, and is still willing to do to another woman and child.<p>Maybe my way of looking at that is different than most, but that is a standard that was instilled in me by many years of upbringing in a religious and "high morals" home, and is something that I cannot ignore.<p>I can see where I have contributed to the demise of my marriage in ways, but the OMW and OM's D do not deserve that treatment from her.<p>Although we try to excuse our WS's from certain actions because of their "fog", there still are UNEXCUSABLE actions, even though they are in the fog, and that happens to be one of mine.<p>I know, that she knows, that what she is doing is wrong. I understand the concept of an A being an addiction, but even addicts will have boundaries that they will not cross to support their "habit". I sense that my WW has NO limits, and is going to do anything to have her way.<p>Her current actions have brought out more anger in me than she ever has in my life. Hell....her actions have brought out the MOST anger EVER I have had in my life. When all of this came to light, I was so hurt, that I knew what it felt like to be so hurt that it was impossible to be angry. It's not that way, now.<p>I think that by "stepping back", by actually being in a Plan B, has let me see a clearer picture of what is actually going on here. That is the purpose of Plan B, as I interpret it, is to cause the WS to see reality in a clearer light. But...I have discovered in myself, that it has also allowed ME the same benefits.<p>So....in essence, I see things differently. I can still hear her time and time again, repeating to me over the past 2 months that I "really didn't know who she was". Although there could be an argument to that, there is one thing there is no argument to........<p>I may not know "who she has become", but I truly know "what she has become".<p>And therein lies the difference.<p>hcii

hcii and J.R.,<p>Gentlemen, I just wanted to pop in and say that your stories remind me so much of the journey that my son is on. <p>hcii, you are on a fast track. I've got to say that you are handling yourself in a truly admirable way. Your have learned so much so fast. Your last post is a classic example of deep understanding. You can do everything a BS can, but ultimately, the WS controls the outcome. Your WW is a lost soul, and there is nothing you can do to save her, but you are well on the way to saving yourself. <p>J.R., you are doing well. Have courage. My son feels just like you do about not getting any younger. He very much wants more children, and his W is doing everything she can to avoid any real negotiation. He is adamant about not wanting a D, but it's been a year since D-day. He is tired, and the clock is ticking. DIL's LB account is in the red. He can't keep this up indefinitely. His giver has given just about all there is.<p>Anyway guys, my heart is with you men who try so hard with dignity to deal with this most painful ordeal. You have my respect and best wishes.<p>Estes

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>hcii, you are on a fast track. I've got to say that you are handling yourself in a truly admirable way. Your have learned so much so fast. Your last post is a classic example of deep understanding. You can do everything a BS can, but ultimately, the WS controls the outcome. Your WW is a lost soul, and there is nothing you can do to save her, but you are well on the way to saving yourself. <hr></blockquote><p>Estes49,<p>Thank you for your words of sympathy and encouragement.<p>I have always been a fast learner. I began to read at the age of 3, and was doing college algebra while in grade school. Sort of a "Doogie Howser" if you want to call it that.<p>But....this is one learning experience that I truly wished that I had more time to learn. It is an experience that I wish I never had to learn.<p>Although we tend to think that we have "learned" something from all we have been through, do we really? I mean, even after going through all the ups and downs, trying our very best to process them to the best of our ability, and with the help of others, have we actually accomplished anything? There are no guarantees that our next relationship, should there be one, will be better because of what we have experienced. Because, ultimately, the "new" person that may be in our lives can, to a large degree, "dictate" the outcome of it, without us being able to do anything about it.<p>So....in essence, we have no more "control" over our next R than we do the one we are in now, even after all that has happened. Control is merely an illusion; No one can actually predict the actual outcome of something in the future, even though we think we have all the bases covered. Simply because we cannot "control" every single aspect of life that may affect THAT outcome as well.<p>I guess that is why most of us who go through this painful process have already come to the conclusion that what we already have, can be just as good or better than what we may have in the future. Because all we have, and all that we can do, is to contribute OUR part in the process. We cannot, and never will be able, to control the contributions of others.<p>It may have been on MB here, or somewhere else that I saw it, the saying of "Happiness is not getting what you want; Happiness is wanting what you have." How true I have found out that really is.<p>Like you said, Estes49, our fate in our marriages actually lie in the hands of others. We are merely along for the ride. The only thing that we can do is to be smart enough, and have learned enough, to know when the ride gives us more pain than the amount of pleasure that we MIGHT receive from the outcome.<p>All in all, the main thing that I have gained from all of this is to be a better ME. To be a happier me. To rely on someone else to provide that FOR me is asking for trouble. 'Cause then I have let someone else take ahold of my emotions, and sanity, if you will, and use them for their benefit. God did not intend for it to be that way. He gave us free choice to do as we please. When we look to others for that sensation, then, and only then, have we truly failed.<p>I am the one in charge of my destiny. Although, again, I know that I cannot 100% know the eventual outcome of my decisions, I can look back and say that I did everything I could in order to achieve those goals.<p>If I succeed, then good for me. If I don't succeed, then as long as I can truly say within my heart that I gave my all, I still am successful. It is the others that have ignored my sacrifices, and ignored my givings, that have been the ones to truly fail. And that is their choice. The one that God gave to them. And the decision that THEY make, that I will respect as well.<p>I have learned, and know now, that I can be happy with the choices I make. I only hope that others, especially WS's, can be happy with theirs as well.<p>I guess that is why most say that a Plan B is inevitable. Because one way or another, someone is going to see things as they really are. And they will act on it. Like I said earlier.....Plan B has caused ME to face reality. A reality that I must act upon. Because little do we ever think about all of the other people, that are in the "shadows" of our situations, are affected by us, too.<p>Our true friends, and especially family, also feel and experience our pain, although it may not be of the same magnitude. But is pain and suffering upon them, nevertheless.<p>There will come a time when we decide that the suffering must end. Not only for our sake, but for the sake of the "innocent" others as well.<p>I feel that time has come.<p>
hcii

Well hcii,
If I might add, it seems to me that you are better off without toxicity in your life. You sound like a decent person who deserves someone with the same value programming system as yourself, someone on your level, your equal...<p>You sound strong, resolved, and ready to face the future come what may. Good luck! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

hcii,<p>I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said. What you have written is a philosophy of true recovery. I wish you well.<p>Estes

hcii,

Well spoken... if each of us can learn a lesson from all this pain, then at least it served some purpose... I think my lesson is very similar to yours.

Take care,
JG

hcii:

I'm very sorry to hear that your W is still persuing her OM. But I am delighted to hear how well you are doing under the circumstances. You are going to make someone a terrific husband one of these days!