Tempted,

I was asked by another MBer to come here, read and post to you. I have read some of your comments and see that your thoughts from the beginning to the end is basically still the same.

I am the BS and the W, so I will speak to you as such. Peppermint asked you if it was ok for your W to do the same. You answered that she had the opportunity but you didn't say if you would approve or encourage an A.

From my perspective, the OW (yes she is an OW beacuse U have made her so in Your heart), is standing between the relationship between you and your W. Kinda like hugging a 3rd party. It cute and ok if it is our kids we are holding in our arms and doing like a family group hug thing but you have already shown you have crossed the line when you went into her relationship.

No man's arms are large enough to hug more than one woman and truly satisfy everyone forever. Those that think they can end up D (is that dead or divorced??? I keep forgetting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

There is more to a marriage than a kiss or a hug. You have taken what belongs to your W and given it to one who is a stranger to your family.

Any woman who stirs those emotions in you without doing much herself (or appears that way - she could be playing hard to get - I will explain why a bit later - because women can be good at that ), is DANGEROUS!

If she really is not egging you on (as you believe), she will take drastic steps to make to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your advances toward her are NOT appreciated. Understand that this will make you want her more but if you are the friend you claim to be you will respect her wishes.

Women have the tendency to be coy. Sometimes this is a cute thing other times it is down right dirty and dangerous. Alluring is a term generally related to the female gender. Even in the animal world it is generally the female that brings those male running from miles around. So her true intentions? Well time will tell. I don't really see her as moral as you say.

You say your W was able to fend off advances but is this OW? Hm....... if you think so, you really don't know women and you could be used as a toy or pawn. U know how men like to talk about how they score with women? Well women also have their sessions among themselves and some of the stories we hear are well...... would put you boys to shame. It's not the s3x thing, some of these types of women make it their aim to take more than just s3x and leave U smiling like you just donated to a worthy charitable organization. In any other situation it would be called a rip off.

Right now, it looks like subtle signals are being sent off on her side an unless she puts a No Contact notification to you or something stronger (like a restraining order) AND you get MC COUNSELING for U and your W, then you are headed for a diaster.

Who knows if your W already knows and has been hurt? Does your W post here?

This board has discussed these issues with many. Whether you have a MLC or not you definitely have trust issue. You have crossed the border into the A world and according to a very wise book, the OW leads you like a bull going to the slaughter. Yes, many men get these emotional trigger feelings.

Step back and really look at yourself. What emotional needs is the OW fulfilling that you will not let your W fulfill or she needs to improve on?

L.

<small>[ June 29, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

tempted,

You just can't seem to see the forest through the trees. Your W should be the only woman in your life. You may have other "friends" that are females...that's ok...but not a "girlfriend". You should not be sharing intimacies with any one person but your W and only your wife. Holding hands, kissing and other seemingly innocent (to you) affections are to be shared with the "one" you Love and only that person.

Yet you are intent on continueing this R with your so called friend and you want someone here to tell you that it's ok. Well ya know what?! It's not!

But if you are so intent on this matter than just do it! But do your W the courtesy of telling her. Tell her what your intentions are so that she can make her own choices.

She surely deserves a man who Loves her and only her. Go be with your girlfriend...just don't do it behind your wifes back. Surely you wouldn't approve of your W kissing another man and then telling you "He's just a friend."

Nevermind! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> After over 140 posts it's obvious that it's not going to sink in. Maybe the moderator should just put an end to this senseless thread.

Tempted:

Okay, since you were referring to me (among others) in this post, I'll bite in one last attempt to try to talk some sense into you. Then I'm gone. I've got enough troubles dealing with the after efffects of a guy just like you that I dont' think I can offer anything more constructive without getting angry. Sorry, that's just how I feel.

"I realize that some of the people on here are bitter over their circumstances, but why the general mood of anger."

Because you could ruin 2 families just sooooo easily by "not doing anything". We've all seen it happen before, and it will happen again (and in your case, too, if you aren't careful).

"I don't get on the board for a day and I am accused of being someone else, of "disappearing." Or my situation is not real.
It is real."

I was concerned you might be a "hit and run" poster. They're pretty common. One sign is that they "don't get it" when given excellent advice from so many people that have been or are in situations similar to the posters. They say the same things throughout the thread, and stand "firm" that they're doing nothing they sould be ashamed of. I'm glad you're real. I'm sorry your situation is real. But you have the golden opportunity to hang back and let your feelings for this woman subside, which they will if you give it time. Spend that time with your W. Tell her what happened, and if you care, you'll come out of the experience with a much stronger, happier marriage.

"A few of the posts, particularily CrMiranda and Jr have been thought provoking, and I wish there was a way I could talk directly with you."

This forum is the "safest" way to do that. You could post your email address in your sig line and let people come to YOU, if they feel comfortable doing so.

"I'm wondering if I am making too big a deal about this friend of mine. I saw her on Thursday and talked with her for all of two minutes in a parking garage and have not heard from her since. I might not talk with her for another week.
That doesn't seem like an affair does it?"

Again, if any of this is secret from your W, then it's an A.

"Maybe the passion I felt for her came out on the board, but it did not reflect reality in terms of how often we see each other. "

My W often claims that since she sees her OM so seldom, that I shouldn't feel threatened. Well, I DO. I believe it was Steve Harley that said something to the effect that "an affair is what your spouse thinks it is". Ask your W whether she feels threatened by your relationship with this woman... But then I realize you've already been asked this.

In all respect to the MBers who have been following this thread: I feel like I need to say some things to you guys, in case you are feeling frustrated.

I have to agree with Lor that e-mailing between two WS's who are still in a sort of withdrawal state of mind or WS's who do not see the OP as a "threat" to their marriages might not be such a good idea.

In all respect CMiranda, I don't know if you are still in withdrawal but I personally feel you are not only deceiving your H, but you are deceiving all the MBers here by withholding your story so I hope you don't mind if I took the initiative to post the link from Pregnancy/Child for you. I am not trying to use your history against you, only sharing with MBers what you yourself have been willing to post here in the past regarding your own situation. Believe me, I know that your reason for coming here in the first place was to improve your marriage--it's the reason we are all here. It's not the affairs that destroy marriages, it's the deception and lying behind them that destroys marriages.

Someone here has asked for your truths. I know you are fairly new to MB and the concepts and everything, and I'm glad that you identify with tempted's feelings of love for his OP. The point is identifying with his feelings is (IMHO) not helping him face the truth of where his friendship is headed. Telling him the truth will help him. Maybe he isn't ready to accept the truth and maybe he never will until the inevitable happens and he is involved in a full-blown PA. Who knows? But telling someone you know where they are might not be the way to get them to where they need to be. Does that make sense??? Regardless whether or not they are ready to accept it. Still it is truth that frees us.

You are raising a child from your affair that your husband thinks is his for seven years. Of course you are troubled!!! Of course you understand this man's dilemma! Of course you can identify with his emotions. Your affair only ended just 5 months ago but your OM still contacts you--(all this behind your H's back?)! I'm sorry if I have offended and my facts are inaccurate, my intention is not to offend, but looking out for the best interest of MBers.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002678

Sorry if this is intrusive and if I am out of place, I welcome the moderators to obliterate my post altogether, I just feel it helps MBers who are feeling exasperated at this point because the suggestions are constantly met with justifications and reasons why the (obvious) EA is okay or won't progress to a PA.

tempted will likely carry on his friendship, so let him. CMiranda will likely never tell her H about the OC, so oh well... Like they both have agreed on this thread: morality does not override what their hearts are telling them to do is at this stage of their relationships.

*sigh*

Hopefully this link will shed some light on all involved.

WS's build a web of destruction through deceit. It's not good. It's just not good. It's sin. The more we sugarcoat the label, the more harmful the poison in the bottle. We all need to face the truth of our lives and deal with the consequences--myself included.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

BTDT,

This is not my thread and I don't wish to overrun it. However, you and I have exchanged posts before, and I'm sure you don't intend to insult me. I'm not offended at all. You don't agree with my posts to tempted obviously. That is okay and of no offense to me. I'm here to help him as best I can. The other poster who asked for more detail on myself, I posted to her on her thread. Not here.

I identify with where tempted is in the progression of this A. Just as the BS's here can identify with his spouse. It is all about where we've been, what our experiences are. Of course that is true. It is obvious that the bs posts are fueled by their experience as mine is to tempted. What exactly is your point on this? I am not condoning or encouraging his EA,how many times do I need to say that? It is clear in my responses to him that is absolutely not what I am doing. I believe that if I could go back and do it all again, I certainly would change many of my actions and reactions to the state of my M. I can not change my choices of yesterday. I am working toward a better life and a better marriage. It does not happen overnight, not for the ws nor the bs. You know that already. I ask that you do not imply that I should take actions to accomodate the memeber on this site. Very few bs throw my history at me, but you are among those that do, and I'm not offended by it. It will not defocus me from my progress nor will it change my advice and empathy for tempted's situation. I am working toward self improvement and a ultimately a better marriage, and I've said before, that will roll out on my timeline. I'm not trying to be defensive, but i"ve said this all before. I know that you are aware of this position of mine so please lets not use tempted's thread to defocus from where HE is right now. He and I are in much different places. Like you, I've been there and done that. I'm not encouraging him to follow, I'm appealing to the his mindset now, because I've been there and I know that all the pleading in the world to someone who feels as he does right now, for moral high ground or his wife and her rights and feelings, they will not get through. I know this and I believe tempted has made that clear to us all. It may not be what you want to hear but it is the simple truth.

I don't think that this is a waste of a thread as someone had suggested. Tempted and any ws is just as deserving of support as anyone else here. He is seeking help and I for one won't just dismiss him because I don't understand him or his thinking right now. Does he seem thick headed?? Of course he does. That goes along with the progression of this addiction. I do understand alot of it and that makes me more compelled to try and help him out of it. Maybe he can't be fixed overnight. This aint a pill that he takes and he is all better. It can take months, some of this stuff may not sink in today, but I believe it will eventually will make it into his logical, thinking mind. It is for me. I'm not posting on this thread because I want to talk about my own progress. I actually have good days and bad days. I made that pretty clear in my post. However, I'm making my way and if it were so easy to do and if life after the A was so happy and wonderful, I wouldn't be here trying to show tempted that he should focus on himself and what he is missing in life, what it is that he needs in his relationship with wife that is missing. I'd tell him go for the quick fix, life gets so much better after you break someones heart that you love and after you shatter your own dreams and life. Come one now!
You are right, we do all have to face the reality of our choices. I never disputed that. That is actually why I came here to begin with. WS did create a life that was not real. I see that.
I do not believe that you have any idea what is in my heart, so please do not presume that you do. I know what my heart is telling me to do and I certainly know where I've been and where I plan to end up. You may not understand my posts to tempted, and that is okay. I am trying to reach him and help him to see what all of the 100 + posts from BS have not been able to do. You can harp at him and you can lecture him,and although a good amount of it needed to be said and heard, it will bounce off of a heart that is already stolen. Sad, yes, but true.
Someone else already pointed out that I should not exchange email with him because of our roles as ws and we have not.

Tempted has a powerful internal struggle going on right now. I will be here for him to try and help him see that this relationship of his is not the anwser to what is ailing him.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

CMiranda,
I owe you an apology. I did not read all the posts and jumped to a wrong conclusion. Maybe you can help tempted. I just wanted him OR ANY OP to know that there IS a safe place for them to go and be encouraged. I actually like to get the progression on and let the fullblown A to go through so the BS can find out the truth and get to the bottom of it. I get sick and tired of the WS and their bleeding heart. Its a cakewalk no matter how you look at it - the WS wants both, the OP AND the BS. They are too selfish to let the BS go OR let them in on the truth (to give them the choice to leave), that is the bottom line. IF the BS knows the truth and chooses to stay and work on the marriage that is one thing. I just hated that my choices were taken away through the lies OR deception (concealing/hiding the truth).

Me and my H are in fullblown recovery - it amazes me sometimes that it STILL hurts SO deeply. Read my signature line - The last three times were JUST contact, JUST emails about how are you with some endearing words AND they were 6 months to a year apart (in tempted's term - "NO HARM THERE") . So for TEMPTED to "think" or try and rationalize that what he is doing is NOT THAT bad - it just literally sickens me. I'm amazed at how deep this wound is and how much this STILL effects me. Radical Honesty - no marriage is worth it without it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I had an interesting weekend in that there was no contact with my female friend. I saw her in peson on Thursday, but no messges or anything over the weekend.
I missed that, and found that my heart ached, a sign of being addicted. So no on Monday, where do I go? Do I contact her and leave a message? Do I create a reason to go see her?
That is the struggle I am now facing -- trying to do what is right, and what feels right. CrMiranda, if you are reading this, you know the battle. It is hard and I am trying to do the right thing. I went on a date with my wife on Sat., something I set up, and it was fun, but there were moments when I wondered if I would get a message from my friend. That is not healthy and I am trying, trying to do the right thing

TEMPTED: did you not read my post?

TELL your wife how you feel about this OW. Tell her what you just posted. I GUARANTEE your feelings will change for this OW when you see the pain in your wife's eyes.

Tempted,
You have 1 honorable choice--no further contact with this woman, other than a MB no contact letter.

You also have the slightly less honorable, but honest choice of telling your wife of your words & actions with this woman, asking for a divorce and having all the contact you want with the OW.

Anything other than those 2 choices are dishonest, and compromise your integrity.

If I found my H doing what you have done, or he found me doing so, our recovery would be over and our marriage ending.

I don't want a divorce, and neither does my friend, so that would be out of the question. Besides, I don't want to marry this woman at all.
I see my choice as one of having no contact. But it seems so damn painful, things not resolved. What could have been. My heart will ache, and I will be letting something special go. It seems painful to do that

Yes, if you go to no contact your heart will ache but you can at least feel proud of yourself for doing the right thing.

I think you realize that if you do tell your wife, whether or not you divorce is no longer in your control. Your wife may choose to divorce you for the actions you have already committed--kissing, fondling, loving this woman.

If as you say, you don't want a divorce, then you have to stop seeing this woman.

Choices have to be made, your choices are between an affair (yes it is) or telling your wife. Both are painful.

Your decisions and behavior have led you to a place where you no longer HAVE an easy way out.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My heart will ache, and I will be letting something special go. It seems painful to do that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe we haven't shared with you the pain involved in a full-blown affair. Oops... yes we have.

Are you forgetting the pain your wife is feeling? The pain she will feel if your affair continues? The pain of your children watching all this happen? The pain of the OW's husband and kids?

Do you think you are being selfish, tempted? You only speak of YOUR happiness, the way YOU feel with this woman, and YOUR pain. Please think of all the people involved.

Please end all contact and face the pain of withdrawal.

ILuv,

I appreciate your apology, thank you for that.

This may come as a real surprise, but as a ws, there were times when I didn't think my H cared that much anymore. When you and others say how deep the wound is and how hurt you are, I honestly believe that some of us ws didn't contemplate how hurtful our actions are. I know that is not true for all of us, at least in my case, until I came here, I had no real idea of the other side.
I used to think that people who fell in love with someone else would and should just divorce and those who didn't, got caught and the bs divorced them. I hadn't any idea of the reality until I lived my experience. I hope I can help Tempted see his way through this and I know that you and others do to but you get angry because you've been so hurt by your WS.
Maybe our hurt is not in vain and we can help someone else even if that person doesn't understand yet. I am still learning and I don't want anyone to give up on me either.

Tempted,
I hope you and others do not grow tired of me saying, I've been EXACTLY where you were this weekend. I remember what it's like.
See, the thing about it Tempted is that as it stands right now, there is no where for you to go where it will be easy and pain free. If you seek her out today and find a reason to see her, which I know is very tempting right now, you will feel a sense of relief and happiness. But it is temporary. It is like a fix that a drug addict gets. Short term you feel better, long term you will definetely not if for nothing else, because this relationship can't be sustained, it can't work. You are already in withdrawl because you are missing her so much. Maybe us WS stay in the relatinship because withdrawl is too hard? We get through the first day or week or month even, then we break down because we are weak. I'm glad that you see this for the addiction that it is. Its about feeling good without having to work for it. It is too easy Tempted. In the long run, as addiction progresses, the withdrawl becomes much more difficult. That is why I said in my first post to you, save yourself now.
What you describe about your weekend and how your thinking during your date reminds me of something.
This is where the double life begins to take form. You have a date with your wife and you have fun. You miss your ow girlfriend. You want both, so you begin to try and make wife happy and be a seeminly good husband on the outside, all the while your mind is elsewhere. Your heart is spliting, 1/2 for wife, 1/2 for girlfriend. Next, your mind will easily seperate your lives. You'll justify it and begin to live with it. It become the norm, not the crazy exception.

If you seek her out and further nuture this relationship, you will feed the double life and it's uncanny progression.

Can you tell me, why do you want to stay married to your wife? I'm not looking for the fluff answers, but really and truly, why?

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Cmiranda, you should be a counselor. You are not judgemental, you offer advice that comes from experience and are guiding me, not telling me what to do.
I swear it is as if you can read my mind. When I hear from my friend, even for just a few minutes during a call, I am sky-high. Seeing her in person is even better. The good feelings last a long time. Then when I don't hear from her, I start to sink lower. That is why when I don't hear from her over the weekend I really miss her, think about her. Then is when I know it is crazy and unrealistc, but it is like a drug. so I think of a reason to call or have her call me. There are days when I fell as if someone has put a spell on me, or a curse.
Part of me wishes she was out of my life and heart. Part of me wishes I could talk with her everyday.
Why not divorce wife? I love her. I know people are laughing, getting ready to flame, but it is the truth.

Tempted,
In your earlier post today, you asked people what you should do, you posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see my choice as one of having no contact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why complain when posters TELL you that's what you should do?

I'm not laughing, not flaming, just thinking you are using this place to further your romantic feelings about the OW, telling a bunch of WS, BS & OP how wonderful she makes you feel. I have no doubt she is enticing, alluring, (but of course, not in a sexual way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) to you.

But MB is not a place that encourages extramarital affairs of the heart, soul or body.

Tell us how wonderful your wife is....

oh there I go, telling you what to do again....

My wife is wonderful, and a special woman. I am not looking for approval here, just a guide out of the mess I am in. It seems Cmiranda can help becaues she has been there and knows what I am thinking and feeling, and can help.
That's all. I think a person can have feelings of love, too, without it being sexual

I'm 2+ years into recovery after 2+ bad years, being both BS & WS...you think I don't know what it is like? I do, and I know it from my own experience of spending too much time with the OM before the divorce...but I've worked ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT, I'm in love with my husband, he with me, we are partners, lovers, a team.

I didn't get here, nor did my H by continuing to focus on what the OP did for us.

If you don't want to be divorced, you need to focus on your wife, not doing anything to hurt her--whether she knows about it or not, you don't do hurtful things if you do not want a divorce.

I really don't want to sound as if I am negative about CMiranda, I hope she does what is necessary to make her marriage work. But I see the two of you as continuing to outline how wonderful the OP are/were to you. It's like blowing gently on a fire, it doesn't make it go out, it makes it flare up.

Lori, that is a great analogy about blowing on the fire. I can relate to that. At times it is me blowing on the embers as if I dont want them to go out.
I wasn't looking to start the fire, but now that it is going I dont want to put it out. I know that is crazy.
I think the only thing that has prevented me from losing complete control is that my friend has maintained the boundaries and is in charge of her emotions. If she was like me, I think it would have progressed into somethihg, but not sexual.
Maybe her holding back is a sign for me that it is up to me to get out before it got too dangerous. I am trying to, but it seems to emotionally hard to go cold turkey

Tempted,
I don't know her, only through your posts, but I think depending on someone else to keep the boundaries is inadvisable. I posted before, it's like saying "yes".

It is hard to go cold turkey, but it is even more difficult to drag it out with a contact here, a phone call, email there.

There are times I have wished the FOM & I had not crossed the boundaries so he could have remained my friend. But, in choosing to try again with my marriage, I also had to choose to end that relationship. The times I have seen him since then by his design "I wondered how you are doing?" or happenstance, I have to be sure to remember my first priority is my marriage and not let any breeze into those "ashes".

Life is choices, choosing one path--the right path--means you don't go down the other.

One thing I have always know about myself is that I am stubborn...I use that strong-will to keep my feet on the path and out of the fire. Use your will to throw your attention on your wife, not the OW.

You really did come to MB at a good time for you, at a point where you realize something might not be right with your relationship with the OW, but before you've really ruined lives.

It's all your choice to live your life with integrity, honesty, honor... or not.