Cadet,<p>Word of caution!?!?! Generally men vs women react differently . So for us W BS' the tactic used by us may not always work as well when the BS is the H. <p>Just a thought. Why does the W get sooo stubborn and bent on mentally and emotionally hurting the H? I am not sure but it is in a very different way from the WS H. <p>Men from mars and women from Venus thingy I guess. I must say & I know I have said this at MB before. I am truly ashamed that my gender are sometimes too stubborn for their own good. <p>Yea, women in general can endure much but when it tilts the other way, women can be more cruel than men. <p>Men fight physical battles (even s3x is more physical for men) but with women, it is more an emotional, mental thing. <p>For example, when a woman is caught and convicted of a crime, there tends to be less remorse. More of a worn out look but less remorse. <p>I don't have a good reason why that happens. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Maybe same objective (restore the M) but differnt strategy?<p>L.<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Spacecase & Mark,<p>Guess we are all in a similar situation with WWs continuing secretly the A while staying with us, and whilst us waiting, doing plan A and *knowing* that A continues.<p>Well, what to do? how much more can we take? Spacecase, your on month #10 and going on. Mark, your WW seems to be a 'serial offender' with the latest period being in month #6 or so.... I am in month #5 and pretty clueless what to do next. We have a gorgeous daughter, still do the family things together, being intimate and all.... BUT I know there's another side, I read her emails where she professes her love to him & making plans for the future....<p>Anyhow. Right after D-Day, I couldnt imagine losing it all, being without her, my family. I simply refused to beleive reality and simply couldnt imagine myself being alone.<p>Now, I can - guess that's a sign that I'm at the end of plan A and ready for plan B.<p>Do you guys have similar feelings?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Cadet,<p>Word of caution!?!?! Generally men vs women react differently . So for us W BS' the tactic used by us may not always work as well when the BS is the H. <p>Just a thought. Why does the W get sooo stubborn and bent on mentally and emotionally hurting the H? I am not sure but it is in a very different way from the WS H. <p>Men from mars and women from Venus thingy I guess. I must say & I know I have said this at MB before. I am truly ashamed that my gender are sometimes too stubborn for their own good. <p>Yea, women in general can endure much but when it tilts the other way, women can be more cruel than men. <p>Men fight physical battles (even s3x is more physical for men) but with women, it is more an emotional, mental thing. <p>For example, when a woman is caught and convicted of a crime, there tends to be less remorse. More of a worn out look but less remorse. <p>I don't have a good reason why that happens. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Maybe same objective (restore the M) but differnt strategy?<p>L.<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>O,
are you referring to my questions about the ILuv and Lexxxy comments?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>Spacecase & Mark,<p>Guess we are all in a similar situation with WWs continuing secretly the A while staying with us, and whilst us waiting, doing plan A and *knowing* that A continues.<p>Well, what to do? how much more can we take? Spacecase, your on month #10 and going on. Mark, your WW seems to be a 'serial offender' with the latest period being in month #6 or so.... I am in month #5 and pretty clueless what to do next. We have a gorgeous daughter, still do the family things together, being intimate and all.... BUT I know there's another side, I read her emails where she professes her love to him & making plans for the future....<p>Anyhow. Right after D-Day, I couldnt imagine losing it all, being without her, my family. I simply refused to beleive reality and simply couldnt imagine myself being alone.<p>Now, I can - guess that's a sign that I'm at the end of plan A and ready for plan B.<p>Do you guys have similar feelings?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>VERY similar feelings Nick. I have been ready for Plan B for some time, but have held off on the request of Steve Harley (with whom we've begun counseling), and on the advice of many here on the boards to try to give it a bit more time.<p>Reality is that there HAVE been some minor positive forward movement indicators, so I have "capitalized" on those to renew my strength and continue in Plan A. But I'm not as optimistic as others are, I guess I've just become a very cautious and cynical person. Perhaps a defense mechanism about what has happened. The sense of betrayal and the feeling of her on-going desire and steadfastness in holding onto the A, even in the face of the hurt and the inevitable consequences, make me very very skeptical of any true desire to reform, change, rebuild.<p>It's all coming to a decision soon though.

Space, I haven't posted on your threads, but have been reading them. I think there are still some positive signs for you, but I don't know if you will have to go to Plan B or not. In my case I was kind of forced into Plan B by my WW. From what I can tell it is having the opposite effect that I thought it would. I am enjoying plan B, and my W seems to not be nearly as happy as I am. I don't know what this means, but I originally went into plan B because of her request for no contact, but now I don't want the contact. Go figure.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by StillCan'tBelieveIt:
<strong>Space, I haven't posted on your threads, but have been reading them. I think there are still some positive signs for you, but I don't know if you will have to go to Plan B or not. In my case I was kind of forced into Plan B by my WW. From what I can tell it is having the opposite effect that I thought it would. I am enjoying plan B, and my W seems to not be nearly as happy as I am. I don't know what this means, but I originally went into plan B because of her request for no contact, but now I don't want the contact. Go figure.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's exactly what should be happening. Why do you say Plan B is not working on your W if you also say she's not as happy as you are? I'd say that's a sign that it IS working.<p>Perhaps both of you need to "work it out of the system" a bit longer. I also see you are both quite young, which may play a part in this. Hard to believe that you face life-changing decisions that have to be made.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> So here's the question; do you think this type of "moving on" action/impression can be done while at the same time being at home, with daily interaction, and being very loving and kind in Plan A?
If so, how?
Or are we really only able to do this by going to Plan B?<hr></blockquote>
SC,
I haven't read up on your recent posts but I was just wondering something you said before and ties in with the above quote: spying and snooping and confrontation were unproductive before. I still think this thing will come to a head if you did that. It would be productive this time because 1) you have SH to do the confrontation 2) you have a STRONG Plan A foundation 3) you have been opening your mind to Plan B.<p>Your quote sounds like you may be considering a 180. I think at this point where you are it is either Plan A (like you have been doing) or Plan B. I think she maybe falling in love with you again and to withdraw would just confirm her suspicions which is: loving SC=loniness/withdrawal. I think you should keep doing what your doing UNTIL you have recent facts of continued contact. BUT I STILL think you should do whatever it takes to get those recent facts. Even if it is a LB to take the mouse and maximize a computer window she just closed. Besides, its only a LB IF she is innocent, if she is guilty, it is completely warranted!!!! BUT this is JUST my opinion. YOU know your situation better than I do, trust yourself.

My W only hated my snooping when she was doing something wrong. When she was trying to be honest (which didn't last very long), she didn't mind the snooping so much. But; that is just my situation. Everyone elses is different. If plan A is showing some progress, I would say stick with it until you feel you can't take it any longer.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>
SC,
I haven't read up on your recent posts but I was just wondering something you said before and ties in with the above quote: spying and snooping and confrontation were unproductive before. I still think this thing will come to a head if you did that. It would be productive this time because 1) you have SH to do the confrontation 2) you have a STRONG Plan A foundation 3) you have been opening your mind to Plan B.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are correct, and those 3 elements (SH, Plan A, ready for Plan B) are exactly the reason now is the time for the "final confrontation". This will be, in a sense, the last chance before Plan B. I am working hard to gather irrefutable evidence so we can do this.<p>If upon confrontation she finally accepts this, and shows a sincere willingness to end it, NC, introspection and analysis, humility to accept her issues, and is willing to go along with a strict Harley recovery, great! That's what we all want.<p>If not, if she still believes this can be ignored or overlooked and does not "get it", then it's time for Plan B. Simple as that.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Your quote sounds like you may be considering a 180. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not sure what you mean by this...which quote are you referring to?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...I think at this point where you are it is either Plan A (like you have been doing) or Plan B. I think she maybe falling in love with you again and to withdraw would just confirm her suspicions which is: loving SC=loniness/withdrawal. I think you should keep doing what your doing UNTIL you have recent facts of continued contact. BUT I STILL think you should do whatever it takes to get those recent facts. Even if it is a LB to take the mouse and maximize a computer window she just closed. Besides, its only a LB IF she is innocent, if she is guilty, it is completely warranted!!!! BUT this is JUST my opinion. YOU know your situation better than I do, trust yourself. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is entirely correct. I am not going to change anything at all. Steve and I know we need a confrontation, we're just waiting for the right information to be available for it. In the meantime, nothing changes. It IS keeping her engaged and in MC and some changes/signs have been positive.<p>I was just asking about the apparently conflicting idea of closeness/detachment that was brought up in the other post, and how that might be done while in Plan A and being together. Also, Orchid pointed out that there may be elements of gender differences in that; that men and women may react differently to the same actions.<p>I'm still curious as to how one would do this?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by StillCan'tBelieveIt:
<strong>My W only hated my snooping when she was doing something wrong. When she was trying to be honest (which didn't last very long), she didn't mind the snooping so much. But; that is just my situation. Everyone elses is different. If plan A is showing some progress, I would say stick with it until you feel you can't take it any longer.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are correct SCBI; and that is exactly what we've been doing. The problem is that she is still in contact and at this point my Plan A and not snooping is just enabling the A to continue. Therefore, and to try to reach a true "recovery" stage, we know the A has to end, and for that to have a chance of happening, we're going to have to confront with solid evidence and give her basically an ultimatum.<p>In the past, 5,6,7 times, when confronted by the evidence, all she did was withdraw, evade, and get extremely angry, major LB. So that's why we decided NOT to snoop and confront during several months, even though she knows I still believe the A is ongoing, and now is the time to do it. Why now? because I'm at the end of the rope with Plan A with an ongoing A, even though there HAS been SOME progress.

I think what you are calling "closeness/detachment" I call 180 and it goes like this:<p>I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope
this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.<p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your currently outlined plan is good though, why change it? Interesting point Orchid brought up. I never thought of the dynamics of a male WS and a female WS.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with the concept of "180s"...I came from the Michelle Weiner camp before MB; but thanks; those are very useful.<p>I guess I haven't asked the question correctly.
You guys said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>ILuv: They keep coming back to put their feelers out. In my case my H kept coming back BUT it wasn't until he thought I moved on and no longer wanted him that he came back full force willing to do whatever it takes to have me again.
Just something to think about...<p>Lexxxy: When you interact with him -- its perfect plan A. But when he looks at your actions, he sees "moving on".<hr></blockquote><p>You say "my H kept coming back BUT it wasn't until he thought I moved on and no longer wanted him that he came back full force willing to do whatever it takes to have me again."
how did you do this? Was he out of the house?<p>My question was about that; CAN something like that be done while in Plan A while we're still living together?<p>and what Lexxxy said: "When you interact with him -- its perfect plan A. But when he looks at your actions, he sees "moving on"<p>I don't see how this can be done while living together...can it?

yes, he was out of the house.<p>I don't think it can be done at home or while in Plan A. <p>Lexxy maybe onto something else though.

This was Lexxy's Response:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>T -- (and Space)
Plan A actions: No LB's. No crying. No begging.
Positive happy interactions when he's around. Continue with the positive changes.
Moving On: Planning activities with D and friends that don't include him. Don't question him about his activities -- and don't answer his question about yours. On nights that he's going to have D -- have some plans of your own.
He's starting to crack -- he's made a couple references to "coming back" and the kissing is a very big deal. So now is NOT the time to give-in, now is the time to re-establish some respect and boundries.
I think T's WH has had a lack of respect for her. She needs to regain some control of their relationship.<hr></blockquote>

Space, <p>Time for me to weigh in with my opinion...What I Love posted as the 180; is what I have been practicing since last week; because it's truly how I am now feeling. Plan Aing where I can; yet distancing myself (I called it detaching); focusing on me and my lessons though this process.<p>Didn't know specifically about the 180 and I'm thankful it was posted here because it will help me solidify my behavior more consistently. I like what Lexxy said about the 180 and I am starting to see H noticing.<p>I just hate the feeling that I am "game playing"; except doing the 180 is respectful of how I feel. H has started asking me questions...he's coming to me; after running running running running away from his responsibility of presenting me with his recovery plan.<p>So far so good...I am as unsure now as I have ever been about what it is I am supposed to be doing/learning; but for the time being this feels right. CSue

There's good news, and bad news; I'll start with the bad.

I confirmed today that WW rented a car while on her trip to FL 5/1-5/6, which pretty much confirms my suspicion that she went to see the OM. There was NO reason in the world to rent a car there...we have literally dozens of friends there and we've never had to rent a car...everyone takes us, picks us up, lends us a car, never a need for a rental.
Besides, she rented it 5/1 a 1:30PM and returned it 5/3 at 10:00AM, and drove 603 miles (it's 254 miles each way to the prison, so do the math)
And of course, she did not tell me she rented a car...the red flag would have been up so fast...

Amazingly easy to find out, too. I emailed the rental company, said W and I had rented a car in XXX, FL between 5/1 and 5/6, in her name, would they please fax me a receipt....10 minutes later I got an email with the info, and 30 minutes later the faxed receipt...amazing!

Now for the good news; I did not freak out when I found out (as I've done in the past), and I've been in a pretty decent mood, even with her. So I guess I'm learning to control those emotional impulses which before had led to futile and LBing confrontations. Now I know I just have to add the tid-bit to my arsenal of evidence, and use it when the right time comes, and in the right manner.

Okay, SC.

How do you use it? What's the "right manner?"

What will you DO NOW?

Please read my update on my thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018665
and tell me what you think (OTHER MB'ers TOO, PLEASE!! URGENT)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Okay, SC.

How do you use it? What's the "right manner?"

What will you DO NOW?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I use it together with other evidence, as a complete "package" which will be irrefutable.

The "right manner" is with Steve's guidance and goes something like this:

"Dahlin' I love you, and I'm very happy you have decided to stay with me and work on our M, that we've made progress, and that we're in counseling together. I have faith that we will be able to work all of this out, and be happy together the way we both want.

Now I know that you have continued contact with OM, that you visited him on xx, and that you've spoken with him on a regular basis (probably a detail or two to let her know I have the exact information). I understand it is difficult to break this off, but I believe this hurts our chances as a couple and it hurts me very deeply.
What do you think we need to do about this?"

Then, pretty much no matter WHAT she says, I should not argue or discuss it much, and simply say:

"I think we should discuss this with Steve on our next appointment"

Something like that, non-threatening, non-confrontational as possible, but just to let her know that this is something that needs to be addressed.

What Steve plans to say I'm not sure, but likely it'll be pretty serious. And we'll see how she reacts.

If she sees that this time it's really time to fish or cut bait, and acts accordingly, great; we move forward based on Steve's guidance. If she does not, or tries to waffle, or continues contact, or lies, or whatever, then I guess we'll re-evaluate, but it seems to me that it would be time for Plan B. No real way I can continue Plan A if this goes on, and no real way we can keep making prigress with Steve while this goes on, and no real way to reach some acceptable level of "recovery" without at least NC, and a committment to work on the M based on Steve's guidance.

As to what I'll do now, I'll wait until I have all the evidence, that it's enough to be irrefutable, and proceed with this plan. If I get the info I've been waiting for soon, great. If not, then it's back to recording or spying to get it myself. But the plan is the same regardless of where the info comes from.

Space,

How do you find the strength to continue on. When the A is finally over, then what. I have been fighting so long and it seems like now the A is over. How can I continue with all that has been said and all that has been purposefully done to hurt me? She is off in an apartment now because she can not be with me and the kids now.

When is enough, enough? When should we draw the line in the sand and say to ourselves, "you cross that and it is over." Is love really worth this suffering. I looked around today at all the woman out there while she is off somewhere. How can I ever open my heart again to anyone? I hope we work out, but I am fearful that my W will not want to try, ever. I am so tired of feeling sad. How can you do it? I admire you for your strength.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Space,

How do you find the strength to continue on. When the A is finally over, then what. I have been fighting so long and it seems like now the A is over. How can I continue with all that has been said and all that has been purposefully done to hurt me? She is off in an apartment now because she can not be with me and the kids now.

When is enough, enough? When should we draw the line in the sand and say to ourselves, "you cross that and it is over." Is love really worth this suffering. I looked around today at all the woman out there while she is off somewhere. How can I ever open my heart again to anyone? I hope we work out, but I am fearful that my W will not want to try, ever. I am so tired of feeling sad. How can you do it? I admire you for your strength.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DL;
I cannot tell you, or anyone else, when "enough is enough"...I don't know what awaits me at the next bend in the road either...I only know that the woman I love, the woman I have loved for over 20 years, the mother of my children, is "trapped" in a dream that is partly of my making and partly of hers. And I have faith that with enough time, effort, goodwill, desire, and faith, she will wake up from that dream and allow me another chance to love her the way I should have always loved her, and that she, in turn, will have the same from me.

Perhaps it is only an illusion, perhaps the pain is too much to overcome...but perhaps this will have taught us something we both needed to learn, and we will be able to be the best we can be. Together. Again.

And that, my friend, is what has kept me here for 10 long, painful months, and what will keep me here for a bit longer.