I like your posts Mortarman - they come straight from the heart & as I seem to be in the same situation, I really can empathise with you.<p>My situation is similar in that my WW outwardly makes all the right noises (most of the time) but continues contact. As an intelligence officer (you seem to be a military man too...) I know how to intercept messages, ha ha. No really, it would be funny wouldnt it all be just so sad. <p>Anyhow, as time goes by I get myself more and more into plan B mood...letting my WW know at the same time that it's EITHER OR, that I slowly run out of fuel.<p>Best,
Nick

Hey Mortarman,<p>Just wanted to let you know that I'll be praying for you!<p>I'm in the Army Reserves and just got back from a 7 month deployment to Kosovo... so I know how hard it is for you. All of my wife's A's happend when I was on active duty at our first duty station overseas....<p>Sounds like you've got some good battle drills lined up.... just realize that you're going to get a ton of FRAGOS during this mission... hang tough and know that there are others that have negotiated the minefield that you're in right now.<p>Take care,
RIF90

Just a brief note to add - I got called up for a month 4 weeks after the birth of our daughter, not ideal, for sure. But what you want to do? It's not a club where one can come and go as it pleases you.
During my absence her sister was staying with us, but nevertheless, in every argument we have she brings up THAT point. How much more can I say 'sorry', 'I cant change the past', 'I understand, it was bad'?

Thanks guys.

Nick, I know what you mean about not being able to change the past. WW wants to talk only about the past. Want to get it through her thick skull that things have changed. She has even said she sees it, on occasion. but most of the time, it is the same old played out tune about the past and I did this or didnt do that. okay, okay already. I admit my faults. now what? I am just hoping that at some point, she will get off of that and face the future so we can see what it holds.

about the FRAGOS and the minefields, I think my problem has been that I havent been getting any FRAGOS until I have already blown off a piece of myself in the minefield. Seems like I go along and then really step in deep do-do on occasion. of course, that ratchets her into "Nothing has changed." Hasn't happened much lately, but last night was one.

I came home pretty upbeat and my WW brought home from nursing school some chart that shows the characteristics of an abusive spouse. It had BS in there like "If he denies being abusive, he probably is;" and "making her feel guilty." of course, I was quite upset. She says that she wasnt saying that I was abusive, just that 80% of the things on there I have done sometime in the marriage. I'm saying to her "If I did 80% of these things, then I MUST be an abuser and you should call a shelter a go there." She backed down after a huge fight and said she doesnt really believe this, but when she looked at it, she saw me. Of course, this is the fog and all she sees is any negative. I'm telling you if I took this checklist and walked down the street and asked 100 wives what their husbands had done, I guarantee all of them would have done 70-80% of the things on this list. It is incredibly stupid. But it was enough to set me off.

But the argument raged and she managed to bring everything up again, to say that she cannot see us back together and that IF it is even possible, I must sign these separation papers that divide everything evenly and let her off the hook for what she has done. Says that 8 years of loving and faithful marriage and she cant believe that I would take everything from her. that all of her efforts woul be wasted and she would have wasted 9 years of her life. of course, this is fog again. Yeah, Virginia law is pretty strict on adulterers (adultresses). but, she is dealing with me. I do love her. She is the mother of my children. She has helped build our family, stayed home and raised the kids and at a personal sacrifice to her career aspirations. Okay, the first 8 years she was great. the last, she gets into this affair. Her point is that because she screws up now, she has to forfeit everything she helped build? This is where her focus is, her anger.

So, she leaves during our argument to go to a meeting with her nursing study partners. On the way there, she calls me back to say thanks for dinner (I had made dinner) and that she would be home soon. She was calmed down and seemed somewhat apologetic. She came home later and I half expected to have to continue the argument. but she seemed in a better mood, and even said there was a restaraunt that she wanted to take me to this weekend. She is so all over the place. We went to bed with her saying I just dont understand her, and if I did, I would sign the paperwork, although not really separating, so her fears can be allayed.

What a rollercoaster. But I still cant sign these papers, mostly because it has phrases like "irreconscilible differences" and "separation leading to divorce." I cant sign that. I dont believe any of that, so why would I sign it. So, she has now said she is not doing any more work with Steve or anything else until she gets the guarantees that I will not hammer her.

Now I am stuck. It's going to be tough to negotiate this minefield!

Hi MM,

Yes.. it does sound like your W is in the fog... Stick to your guns and don't sign anything.

I would recommend that you really try to listen to what your W is trying to tell you... You're going to hear a bunch of fog talk, but if you listen closely, you might just pick up on some of the real reasons that she felt the need to stray from your M....

It's so hard to realize this after you've just found out... and it's even harder when our WW are acting so irrational.

Hang in there... the ups and downs are all 'normal' and part of the process... Let me know if theres anyting that I can do...BTW, I was a combat engineer so I know all about minefields...

Take care,
RIF90

Mortarman - Dont sign, no way!
I think in this kind of situations it's the BS responsibility to keep a clear head an be steadfast - for the marriage but especially for the children's sake! no rushed decisions at all. give her time. if you cant do that anymore (which would be pretty understandable.... am in a similar rollercoaster), then do a physical separation, but without necessarily signing anything. you still can live apart, care for her (financially), yet avoid contact & signing away your future. signing & divorcing you still can lateron, if you/she wishes to do so.

RIF90,

Thanks for the support. as my name here says, I am infantry amd just spent 7 months in Bosnia (right next door to you). that's when the A happened.

I already know what happened and why she felt the need to leave. Due to my inattention because of my depression, when i left, she decided that she could not be happy with me and the marriage was over. So she pursued this guy at the gym. of course, she didnt tell anyone the marriage was over, excpet him. I certainly didnt know. While I was in Bosnia, I began to see the funk I had gotten into the last couple of years and started working on myself so that i could come home and be a better husband, the one I used to be. if you go to the top of this post, you will see a link to the whole explanation on what happened.

Anyway, through looking at her top needs, (1. financial Support 2. affection 3. Sexual Fulfillment), I had realized that due to a severe financial problem we got into because of our new house flooding, as well as the death of my father, I was put into a very depressed state and was no longer meeting either her financial needs nor affection right before I left. It was a slow grind downward and if she had asked for a divorce right before i left, i probably would have given it to her because I could not find my way out of my depression and could not find a way to meet her needs again. A counselor we saw a year before that had been absolutely no help (I wish I had known about the harleys).

But Bosnia was good for me in that I regained myself there, my confidence, as well as direction on career, finances, etc. Since january, we have been back in the black and our house is up for sale, in which we stand to make a $50,000 profit of it in just 4 years, and can pay off all the debt. more on that in a minute. Then, while I was over there, I learned of the A. I never let on that I knew, but tried my damndest through letters, email and phonecalls to show my wife that things had changed. read the post at the top and you will see how that turned out. Suffice it to say that if it was not for my efforts over there (kind of a long distance Plan A), we would not be in the smae house right now.

So, I know what caused it...not meeting her financial support needs and her affection needs. Now, this guy (OM) makes less than I do but I guess he impressed her that he manages his money well. Also, he provided that shoulder to cry on and affection that I had pulled back the last two years. My point is this. I just got a call from my agent and said we now have an offer on the house as of this morning (more in a second). So, with the sale, we will finally be out from under the financial seige that we have been under the last 4 years (this should bode well for me on her number one need). The affection need is harder because she still doesnt want me to really touch her, although I give her almost nightly massages. I try to be there to listen, and give hugs, and all of that, but I feel that I may not be doing enough. but, at least while the OM is somewhat in the picture, then I really dont have much room here.

On the OM...they seem to really be having problems now. I think that is why she has come back to me last night after the argument and been so conciliatory. And even wanting to take me to a new restaurant this weekend. Added to this, while I was talking to her just now about the offer on the house, she talked about a house she saw over by her bestfriend's house that is for rent (we are going to rent for a year to clean up credit). Said she is going by there this morning to get more info. Now this is good because she is thinking WE all are moving together. just three weeks ago, in the separation agreement she still wwants me to sign, she was moving into an apartment as we worked on each other.

So, I am tentatively upbeat. the sale of the house (plus an impending job change that she doesnt know about yet that will increase my pay by 30%) should put some HUGE deposits in the old love bank in her number one category. I'm hoping that may trigger her allowing me a little closer. i hope it will also trigger her final weaning of the OM. They really arent talking, as much as I can tell, but he is still hanging out there and until there is an official ending, I am considering it still in full bloom.

Seems like the mission is still moving on as planned and with the OM being a d*** (her words) to her and the sale of the house, I think I MIGHT be making a big step forward. Standing by for the next FRAGO, so I can take advantage of this!

Hi Mortarman,

Sounds like things may be turning around for you a bit! That's so good to hear.

Hope the new job and the house sale go through without any problems.... I would caution you to not try to "expect" anyting from your WW based on these two actions.... You should most definitely enjoy the success of the new job and of getting out of debt... but try not to tie any actions by your WW to these. For example: I tell W that I just got a 30% raise and we made $50k on the house.... now I expect wife to dump OM and come running back to me saying how sorry she was...

I do hope that this is eventually what happens..... that your WW will realize just how much she's hurt you and will come back and work on your M with you.

Hope this isn't taken as raining on your parade, but I've been there done that and got lots of t-shirts... It hurts even more when we do X, then expect our WW to respond in a way that WE want them to... that's all I'm trying to caution you about.

Again, congratulations on the sale of your house and the new job situation... Financial security is a biggy for my wife as well.

Take care,
RIF90

Thanks RIF90. Cautionary optimism is the word for the day.

I am not expecting anything at this point because so much of this is foriegn to me, especially her A. this is definitely not the woman I married, or left last fall. She has even admitted that she cant believe she has turned into this.

My only optimism really right now is the fact that she is looking for our new home today. Got to be a hard deal for her because she still has pull of OM and still hasnt broken it off officially, even as recently as last Saturday saying she still loves him and still sees a future with him. but then today, she is going to look for our new home.

Could be something else going on though. Since we are renting for a year, and not buying, she may feel more comfortable with the current situation, knowing she is graduating from nursing school next spring and then can do her own thing, if she wants to. So, MAYBE it could be her just saying that she'll stay, not change anything, keep stringing both of us along, and then do her deal next spring and ride off in the sunset. i dont think this is the case. but then again, I never thought she would ever have an affair or want a divorce. I do know that neither me nor the OM would put up with that over the next 12 months. Plan B will come WELL before that!

but, again, thanks for the warning.

Okay, things are going downhill again. if you read above, last night we had a blow-up, basically because she wants me to sign these separation papers that outline that we split everything and joint custody. in Virginia, there are steep penalties for people who commit adultery. So, I think she feels she is in a bad spot and is trying to make sure that 8 years of effort and committment (you cant count the last one because she abandoned the family and started the affair) will all be lost because of the affair. Well, that's what the law says.

I have told her differently, but she says she doesnt trust me. She keeps saying she should have never married me, never have stayed home with the kids, that she has lived a worthless life for 9 years and has nothing to show for it. but, this had been our plan. Until the youngest was in school, she would stay home and raise them, with my help. then, once they were all in school, she would pursue her career. Well, she is finishing nursing school next summer, and that following fall, our youngest starts kindegarten. Everything is as planned. Except for the fact that she abandoned me and the family last September for the OM and the affair. Oh, she was with the kids for part of the time (READ my link to my original post if you want to know how that went down) but she was fully gone as being my wife and was fully committed to starting a relationship with the OM.

Well, today we finally get an offer on the house (see posts above). She just comes home from the gym, calls me and says that I can do whatever I want, that I will anyway, that it has always been my way...that she has nowhere to go so she guesses she is stuck with me...that she has nothing to show for 8 years of marriage (remember, the last year, she really wasnt married, at least not by her actions). She said again that she regreted marrying me and wish she had done everything different.

Now, the question. How the hell do i respond to this? Nowhere does that represent what has happened. If she is talking aboutthe kids and marital assets, then maybe she is talking about the fact that she is in a very bad way legally. but, first of all, if we are working on this, than there is no problem. Second of all, if she goes, I have told her that I am a christian man, that I love her, that she is the mother of my children, that she helped build everything over the last 8 years and was a great wife and mother. So even though she screwed up and the law says she might not deserve anything because she has pissed it away, I have told her that I would never do that to her. But she wants it in writing. And the only way she knows how to do is in a separation agreement, but she says we wont "actually" be separated.

So, her revisionist history crap continues. we have to move in the next month. She continues contact with OM and hasnt ended at least the EA, although she says PA has ended since March. She, in her angry moments says she loves him and sees it working out if I would just be man enough to let her go (of course that really means if I will sign the agreement so she can have half our stuff and kids). I dont mind the fact that she gets her half, even though the law says she isnt entitled to it, but I do not want to sign separation papers.

What am I going to do? When she takes our past and says the good times, our children, everything we both slaved to build wasnt worth it and she wasted a third of her life, I just cant believe it. And it hurts. this is not what this woman told me over the last 8 years. Just over the last one.

So, anyone out there want to tell me how to handle this? I obviously cant re-educate her into the truth of what was, what we agreed to and the fact that she has turned everything upsidedown in her mind. but, I have to plan for major things here, like moving. I am fully in Plan A, but if I wasnt, this would be a perfect moment to go to Plan B.

Help!! just when things seem to be moving along, she goes off the deep end again.

Hi Mortarman,

Sorry that things have changed... that's about the only thing thats constant in all of this rebuilding process.... things change continuously!!

It sounds like your WW is still deep in the fog and is trying to have ice cream with her cake (you signing the separation agreement). Don't sign a thing!!!

I know that this is hard, but if you are committed to restoring your marriage, you need to realize that the things that your WW is telling you right now are all "fog talk". You need to focus on what she DOES... not on what she SAYS. Don't take her words at face value. Just acknowledge what she says and then wait to see if her ACTIONS back up her words.

I think she knows that she's over a barrel if you choose to divorce and she's just trying to keep all of her options open. I expect that she wants to come home, but is having a hard time understanding how you could still love her and accept her after what shes done. I know that my wife is still amazed that I chose to stay with her after all the stuff she put me through...

Keep loving her and try to find out how you can help her learn to trust YOU again... I know that this sounds wrong, but it's so true. You and your wife are going to have to learn completely new ways to live together. Her actions sound like shes worried that you are going to throw her out into the street and then she won't have you or the OM... a pretty sad place to be right now, even if it was due to her own choices...

Stay strong and keep working on meeting her EN w/o LBing.... most affairs end and if you've been doing a good plan-A, then I expect that you'll see some changes for the better in your wife.

Take care,
RIF90

Hi Mortarman,
Don't sign, don't sign, don't sign. Stay strong in that area. Some will not agree with my next statement as harsh as it may be. She should have thougth of what she could lose before she started the A. My H was way for 9 months working in Detroit. I did not stray during tha time frame. Okay, I did visit him once, and he came home about once per month, so we had contact during those 9 months. I believe you when you say that you will be fair if it does not work out. But let the issue show at that time. She made her bed, now she can lie in it.

If M fails, does VA allow any recourse against OM? Just a question. If so, I think it would be a major LB to mention to WW. She may see it as a threat. I think it is. Isn't VA the state where some woman sued the OW and got a Million dollar judgement in her favor? (Lifetime movie, claimed as a true movie)

On a positive note, keep doing a good Plan A as others have advised. OM will not hang around for another year. From my experience with men, they don't like anything interfering in them being number one. Back in my early college days I was dating a guy who worked 2nd shift. He ended it with me because I was in school. He didn't like it that homework took priority over him. (what a baby). My H, before we were M, didn't like it when my hours changed and I was working 11am - 7 pm, so he had to take care of the kids and pick them up. His family at that time was interfering in his social life.

Even though it appears that she is kissing butt to OM, she will get tired of his crap. It cannot be putting Love units into the bank when he treats her badly. Withdrawals in this situation are good, very good.

Right now you are providing financial support, she knows that she needs you. In one way she feels trapped, but that trapped feeling is of her own making. You are concerned that once she finishes school that then she will leave because she no longer needs you. Could be, but then again, you will have a year of Plan A behind you.

Maybe what I'm about to say will make sense. I intend to Plan A until I'm done with school. If things have not changed, I will probably skip plan B, and tell him its over. I'm one of those people who will give it all I have and when there is nothing left, well, goodbye, you had your chance. By the time she is done with school, and if for some reason OM is still around, (I don't believe he will be, he will have found someone who will be there for him). You will know at that time, maybe sooner, if you should proceed to Plan B or maybe Divorce. (I hope for you it does not get to this point.)

It sounds like Plan A is having some positive affects. As to her comments regarding about why dont' you let her go, I think I would just ignore it,(I don't know if this would be a LB) or you can tell her, that you love her, and the kids too much. Tell her that you feel you owe the kids a family with both parents in it and you have ot try to make it work.

Good luck to you

Thanks for the posts RIF90 & Sue....

The issue with my WW is that right after I left for overseas, she decided that the marriage was over. She didnt tell anyone, except this guy she pursued. She told me this past weekend again that this wasnt just some fling, but that she had decided things were over with. And she thought I would go along with it. but I didnt and you will have to go back to the first page of this thread and go to my original post to see what happened.

The weekend went real well until sunday after church. We were getting closer (she sort of admits that now). She said she had thought recently about me and SF needs (more later on that). She kept making references to our future, since we just signed to sell our house (finally got the offer), and all sorts of other things thta made me think that we were moving along nicely.

We went to church Sunday and she was in a funk after that. Really it started late Saturday night, when she said she was thinking about OM. I would say it was withdrawal, but she is still consistently talking to him and even said last night that she has yet to tell me that she is going to break things off completely, or even at all.

Yesterdaqy, before we all went to the pool to go swimming, she pretty much reveresed all of the things she said and showed me on saturday. On the SF needs, she said that it had been three months, that yes she was feeling the need and yes she had thought about me. But there was no way she could do that. She still has feelings for him and she said she would feel like a fraud. Also, she says she doesnt trust me and that she still doesnt know what she wants. Said that those SF feelings about me were akin to seeing someone walk down the street that gives you a little "stir." She said it was nothing more than that.

I am trying to do a good Plan A, but part of the problem is her needs. these are hers in order (top 3): 1. Financial Support 2. Affection 3. Sexual Fulfillment. Now, I am taking care of financial support okay right now and with new job coming up and the sale of the house, this is improving rapidly. But she said last night that she is going to fulfill that for herself, that with her nursing degree, she is never going to depend on anyone again to fulfill that, and wants something to show for her efforts.

Affection and SF: no way I can fulfill any of this. When I do get close, she gets scared and pushes me away. So, I end up fulfilling needs down on the scale and I am not making much headway. like I said before, just when I see positive growth, she pulls back and turns around everything she said and did. She says last night that she knows I am hurting, and I have the option to leave. She said the separation papers are no longer the issue (a lie) because she said that I can just wait until she gets to a position that she decides she is going, and then I will be served with them. She says signing them is a trust factor because I said I would do it, as well as her wanting to know that her first 8 years of our marriage werent wasted. I understand that legally she pissed that away, but she says the major stumbling block to ANYTHING happening is her not feeling trapped (says she isnt going to even talk to Steve anymore until I do what I said).

She did say that she sees the deal with OM ending soon. She said that he has issues and that she is starting to see that it might not work out. She says she is worried about him though and what will happen to him. She also adds that even if it ends with him, it changes nothing between her and me because before she started in with him, she had decided that this was over.

All of this is very strange because 5 minutes later, she is talking about that I screwed up when I cam back, that she wanted to try to find out and work on this (she never told me that...actually, she threw up a bunch of walls and gave me a hard time). But because of some of my LBs (threats to take kids away, her on the street, etc), she has put up even more walls and cannot see how she can ever love me again.

guys amd gals...I do not know what to do. She isnt going to talk to Steve again unless I sign those papers. no matter what happens, I will still do what is outlined in them so that isnt even the issue. With our house going to closing on July 22nd, I just dont know what to do now. part of me says give them to her, give her the last argument she is using to beat me over the head with (she even said that last night...that she wouldnt know what to do if she had nothing to hold over my head), and then see what she does.

All of her actions, except continuing to talk to him, shows that she is staying, at least for awhile. She helped me this weekend start looking for a new house. But later, she caught herself and made statements like "well, if we dont work out, it still will be a great location for you and the kids."

The rollercoaster continues. I know what I felt on Friday and Saturday. She tries to change it all Sunday, but then later Sunday night, told me she wanted me to sit with her while she studied. What is the deal here? She says she doesnt really know if I love her, that I am probably just trying to get what I want. She says the issue though is that she doesnt love me and cant see ever gettinbg that back. of course, here is where Steve comes in, but she wont call until I show her I will do what I said, and to take away her feelings of being trapped.

Any help in this would be appreciated. I seem to be making a great doormat. So I guess I am doing Plan A right. but where to next?

Mortarman,

Is it possible for you to make your own set of separation papers that set out terms that you want. Or you could just file for the divorce. She is not trapped by you, she is trapped by what she has done.

Jack

Thanks CJ.

The issue here is not whether I want to separate or not. I dont. She had these drawn up because of the LBs I did after coming home (threatened her losing kids, money, jouse, etc) and not being able to finish school. She stayed home over our marriage and supported me through school (Masters degree) plus raising the kids. She feels now that she has nothing to show for her efforts (the fog, probably). And even though she is finishing school this next year and starting her career right on time, just as we planned, she feels that she has wasted 8 years now.

So, the issue of the separation papers, she says, is to take away the threat of me hammering her with taking everything away. She says until that threat goes away, she feels trapped, like she HAS TO stay, that she "hates" me because she could lose everything and have nothing to show for her 8 years of sacrifice. So, if she is going to move forward, she said the threat has to go away. If I hadnt of threatened her when I got home, she said that we would probably be moving forward because she had every intention on doing that when I got home. Of course, she had a huge wall up and never told me, thus I blew up at times at her inability to end EA with OM, and with openly recommiting to me. It is only lately (last two weeks) that I have fully implemented a true Plan A and it seems to be working. but she still maintains the damage is done and she is afraid of what I will do, especially if she decides to divorce.

I know in reality that she sacrificed these things when she committed the affair, but right now I am trying to save my marriage. And the fog does not let her see things rationally. So, telling her she would deserve what she gets aint gonna help things. And if i dont remove the threat, then I have to take her at her word that we are going nowhere.

Hi Motarman

The threats may have been an LB, but the legality is and she knew it, was that she took the risk and brought it on herself by getting involved with the A. I'm not very sympathetic on this issue. I would not sign anything. You could draw up your own separation agreement as CJ suggested putting in it your terms. I personally would not give too much away, she made her decision to lose it all when she had the A. (told you I'm not very sympathetic.) Whether she considered the M over is irrelevant, she is still legally M. I understand that she knew VA law to know the risk she was taking. One more thing, do not sign anything that you are not comfortable with. Even if it is to make her feel secure. You need to be 100% satisfied with it, especially if you don't have an attorney help draw it up.

Now the softer side of me-
She sounds confused, she is talking like there is a future, she is scared that there isn't. She may be scared that there is and it won't be fulfilling. She has acknowledged that she will lose the kids and you will have them.

As far as OM goes, sounds like it might be the beginning of the end. Once he is out of the picture, hopefully you will start to see some changes with her and your M.

Hang in there

Mortaman,

I am sorry you are in such position, and I send you e-hugs.

I agree with some of the things that have already been said in this thread.
One of them is that your WW is buying herself some time to finish her nursing degree and then be off.
The other is that she got caught and will deffend herself like a cat on its back even when you are only trying to pick her up.

She wants you to sign so she can get off as scot free as possible, she knows the legal bindings of her trespass, and she is hoping you will break down and do it. I know this might not be it, but the "Oh this is the last thing I got over your head", is exactly the point. That is the only thing left for her to hang around and not parade her affair.

She is being like a little brat that doesn't quite finish to get what she wants.

Do NOT sign those papers, if she wants separantion papers she will have to draft them with you, in front of a lawyer and with all of your senses. You don't want to separate, then don't let her have it her way, if she wants to she will have to do it the right way.

Mortarman,

Don't sign the separation agreement. This is just blackmail on her part and frankly she isn't in the mindset to even do a good job of it. Frankly, the real question is how she will earn your trust. ABout what you ask? Well how about being a good mother. How about if you sign she will simply leave right now. Where are her guarentees to you?? Perhaps if she could make some to you, then you just might be willing to consider it. But, she cannot and that is the rub isn't it.

But, more importantly don't sign the separation agreement especially with the affair with OM dying out and your Plan A working. You have told her you will treat her with more respect that she has shown you, but the reality is she is also projecting on to you how she has treated you in your absence. SHe has made you a monster to justify her affair and she will fight to keep that image or she will have to recognize that she jeapordized not only her "8 years" but her children and her right to be their mother.

So this will be a long hard fight on your part to keep Plan A'ing, let the affair die out, and still not sign the separation papers.

Now you could make her a counter offer. Say 1/4 of the assets, and seeing the children one day a week, and everyother weekend. Sort of what most men get when they get tossed by their W. I don't think she would like it.

I am sure she is buying time, but that is really a good thing. It is clear she has feelings for you,but she is fighting them, because if she gives in to them, she will have to face what she has done. Eventually, if you keep plan A'ing her, she may well be able to face what she has done, and face the fact that you are not the BAD GUY here.

There are no guarentees but it seems that she is conflicted and confused that is a really good thing at this point. So, do your best to hang tough, it will take all you have emotionally and mentally, but I think you are up to the task.

Oh one last thing, be as good a father to your children as you can possibly be. They need you more than you realize, and it will affect your W's view of you.

Hang in their soldier you can do this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: You posted
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, today we finally get an offer on the house (see posts above). She just comes home from the gym, calls me and says that I can do whatever I want, that I will anyway, that it has always been my way...that she has nowhere to go so she guesses she is stuck with me...that she has nothing to show for 8 years of marriage (remember, the last year, she really wasnt married, at least not by her actions). She said again that she regreted marrying me and wish she had done everything different.

Now, the question. How the hell do i respond to this? Nowhere does that represent what has happened. If she is talking about the kids and marital assets, then maybe she is talking about the fact that she is in a very bad way legally. but, first of all, if we are working on this, than there is no problem. Second of all, if she goes, I have told her that I am a christian man, that I love her, that she is the mother of my children, that she helped build everything over the last 8 years and was a great wife and mother. So even though she screwed up and the law says she might not deserve anything because she has pissed it away, I have told her that I would never do that to her. But she wants it in writing. And the only way she knows how to do is in a separation agreement, but she says we wont "actually" be separated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I posted this because I answered some of it in my main body, but as for her telling of history, just ignor it. First, one of the things that came out of the 8 years is:

your children. THe next is her education. and Finally, although she doesn't appreciate it she is married to a man that loves her enough to work through her lying and affair.

She said that the only way she knows how to do this is a separation agreement, but she say we won't "actually" be separated. Well ask her how she can guarentee this in such a way that you can trust her? Ask her to sit down and do a POJA with you on this topic, so that both of you feel this all is in good faith. It sounds as if you don't have a lot of spare money and what you do have is coming out of the equity of the house. Perhaps, you could offer to give her 1/4 of the money as a token of your sincerity. Sort of an amount of money that is hers. She can use it to the help the family if she feels inclined when/if you buy a new house, or it is hers when she leaves, (the rest is deteremined during divorce hearings).

It seems to me you cannot guarentee the children 1/2 time because you don't know the situation that will prevail if divorce were to occur.

She does still expect you to pay for her education, food, and housing while she is in school doesn't she? IN short she has failed you in the worst way but she expects you to keep your word, although she broke her marriage vows big time.

I realize that you cannot educate her, but have her come up with a solution that YOU would like. It should be interesting.

Again, hang in there.

Thanks all. I will try to answer each one of you. I can see everyone says dont sign, so let me answer each one of you and let you know what I am thinking.

Sue: Yes she knew. Because I really had been emotionally absent over a good part of the last year before I left for overseas (due to a depression that even she didnt know about), she had started to decide that she couldnt stay in the marriage. She kept trying to work with me, to get me to come to her and work on it, but I was in full depression and no good to anyone. it took Bosnia and 8 months away from my family, and even unfortunately the A to wake me up. So, when I left, and 9/11 hit about the same time, she decided that I was never going to be the husband she married and decided that this marriage was over. But she did not want to send a "Dear Jane" letter to me overseas. She thought she was protecting me because of the mission I was doing and I needed to concentrate on what I was doing. So, I will give her that. But, you are right...legally and morally, she was and still is my wife. Added to that, i have always believed that you never give up on someone you love, give up on family. I think I am showing that because I am still here through her betrayal, as are most of you with your spouses. I would love to get angry about all of this, but with her anger towards me (and I suspect, more toward herself now because she does see that I did come around and that she blew it), I can not afford that. I am trying to save my marriage and my family, so my needs and wants will have to take a back seat for awhile. Doormat-itis is definitely taking effect. So, I will answer you and all considering the separation agreement at the end of this post. On the softer side that you wrote, I hope what you say is true. the problem is that for my own emotional protection, I try to stay with the negative stuff she says and dont put too much into the positive because if she takes off, I will crash again. I cannot afford that for me nor my kids again. But, I hope you are correct and I do see many signs. I just hope they are tru ones and not me reading into things or wishful thinking.

Alostwife: I am trying to stay closer to your view right now because it is safer. I have enough evidence that she might be coming around, but when she backs off and says the "I can never love you again" and "I dont see how this can ever work out" it causes me to crash again. So I am trying to stay somewhat on the negative side until there are tangible changes that she cannot back pedal on again.

JL: Again, you are right on the money. And i like some of the ideas that you laid out here. This is exactly what I am TRYING to do and I appreciate everyone's support.

Now, about the separation papers. I know everyone says dont do it, but let me explain a few more things and see if you still hold this to be true. I talked to Steve last night after I frantically left a message asking him what I should do because she wont go back and talk to him or do any work until she stops feeling trapped. For most of the conversation, Steve agreed with everyone here. But as I explained her intranscience as well as the fact that she is the type to stick her head in the sand and do very destructive things even though she knows they are wrong or might hurt her (Hello??? the affair??). anyway, steve asked if what is in the separation agreement (SA) is what I would draw up if we were going to divorce. I said yes. Also, in Virginia, if I have intercourse with a WW then I have "forgiven" her and the adultery is forgiven. To her credit, she has said there is no way she could have sex with me until she knew we were right again, although she said this past weekend that she has thought about it (SF is her #3 need!). Anyway, Steve asked me that if she wanted to, would I have sex with her. I said yes. Thus, I would give up all rights I have now because of the A. And any divorce would just be a straight divorce. Knowing that I would give up my rights that way in order to further our marriage, he said that as long as I didnt have a problem with the terms of the SA, that I could sign it, if that will get her moving again.

Now, the danger right now is this. Do nothing, and she will continue to berate me that I have broken another promise, that she is going to get through school and take care of herself, even if we stay married, because she cant trust me to do what I say (this goes back over several years of my not getting things done...during my depression) and she will just do her thing and we will see. at the same time, she says she refuses to talk to Steve, refuses to do anything more to move forward until she does not feel threatened by me or my family (go back to first page and original link at the top to see why she feels this way...suffice it to say, their A was never in private, even in the bedroom! While I was gone, there was a lot of "intelligence work" going on and she believes still going on). So, she wants to know that no matter what is going on out there with these peole, that she hasnt wasted 8 years of her life supporting me only to lose everything. Now, I agree with everyone that she did it to herself. But she is in the fog and this logic falls on deaf ears and only makes her angrier.

The second danger is that if I sign this, then she walks. Well, I know my wife. And when she made up her mind to walk last October, she meant it. It was only due to my diligence and hard work (again, read the original post) that I was able to pull her back and make her doubt that this was over. So, if she is going to go and I am just being blackmailed, there is no way I will know until it is too late. And there is nothing I can do about it anyway. but, if my marriage can be saved and I cannot get her to a point where she feels safe (the first rule of a good marriage---protection), then I will lose. And my kids will lose.

So, there it is. Damned if I do, damned if I dont. I dont agree with the SA, but the terms in it are fine I guess (pretty much equitable split, with joint custody). Yeah, my anger says she doesnt deserve any of this and that she forfeited it all. And she stopped being a good mother when she did this to their father. But, I can be right all day and give her what she deserves. And my family will break up.

So, how do I continue to Plan A, which seems to be having pretty good results, and at the same timebe true to myself? When does being a doormat go too far? How much am I willing to risk to save my wife from the destructive behavior she has done over the last 9 months? How much am I willing to risk of my own in order to try to save my kids' family?

not easy questions. If I had a crystal ball, I'd know what to do. For you military-types out there, you will understand this. There comes a time in the fog of battle where you have to make a decision, and no good decisions remain. So, you go with your gut and hope for the best. My gut still says my wife is somewhere inside that alien. How do I rescue her? How do I negotiate with this alien to let my wife go?

This is harder than I ever thought, and harder than any military operation I have ever gone through.

Mortarman,

Definetly this is a terrible situation. My own rollercoaster doesn't measure up to the worse things I have been through, and those were pretty bad.

Bottom line is, you have to protect yourself. WS's in fog do awful things to BS's, they will go through whatever is set in their minds because they are so blind they cannot even begin to see the damage they are causing, because if they did and still went through it they couldn't be able to live with themselves.

If you are set and you really really think that signing the separation will give your M a chance, then go on ahead, but read the agreement carefully.

I'd advise for you to tell your WW that, if she really wants to separate legally (because that agreement is legal the moment you sign it), then she will have to do it all the way through the legal system. She will have to get a lawyer, get the separation drawn, ready and you two will have to agree on it all.

Tell her that, if she is so scared of you, if she doesn't trust you that much, then this is the way to show her that, the moment you sign the separation you are being for real, but at the same time, you don't want to separate.

I don't know if you see what I mean, if you go now sign those papers, then she may turn it around on her fogged head and then tell you you wanted to separate too because you signed the papers! If you point blank don't want to separate, let her know by making her do all the work for it and by making her do it right.

As I said she is blackmailing you, plain and simple, she is telling you her way or the hallway, and that is pure WS fog.

I am just saying, if she wanted to work on the M for real she wouldn't even use separation as ammo. I mean, if you don't want to go fishing you don't get a fishing rod, do you? And even if she is just being scared, then, making it go through lawyers should make her feel more secure, since it will be official, not a homemade pact.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Alostwife ]</small>