You are a soldier so you should understand that what she is doing to you right now is nothing more than war on an emotional level. You are not used to this kind of battlefield but it is a battlefield none the less. You are fighting for your M and your family remember that always. Don't let her wear you out to the point of you signing those separation papers. Her telling you that she will only work on the marriage if you sign them, is totally ludicrous because the moment you do sign them, she'll leave with the kids faster than you can blink and say 'sucker'. Like war, this situation is not going to be resolved quickly unless you opt to file for divorce and ask for everything including sole custody with child support.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMNSTANCES SIGN THOSE SEPARATION PAPERS . If you do then not only can she get the kids, child support, but your kids will be living with OM and how would you like that for a cozy scenario? No way man, she has to know that 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

If I understand correctly, she is insintuating that if you sign, she will be feeling less trapped and may want to work on the M. However, you need some assurances also. Personally I stand by the Do not sign anything and I think Toomuchcoffee is on to something, however, see below:

Here is a suggestion, - have an attorney help with SA papers. Divide things up on paper only, so you both are happy (mostly you). She has to have NC with OM or any other man that could be a EA or PA during separation, if she has contact, SA is null and void. Part of SA agreement is she has to have couseling with Steve or other Marriage counselor and try to work on M for a specified period of time. If after said time is up, and she still wants divorce, well, at that point what can you do, you will also have an idea as to where things are headed during this time frame. If you go this route or a similar route stand strong on the issues that are the most important to you. Unless I am mistaken, legally you have the upper hand, she knows it and does not like it. I would retain custody of the kids, do you want someone else raising your children?. They were in the way once before, who's to say it won't happen again?. I get very upset when a women puts a man ahead of the kids. She will say it was school, she could have found a babysitter, or daycare.

One of your concerns is that she will walk as soon as papers are signed and how can you plan A. Well, would she risk losing everything by seeing OM, if you agree to a fair split.

You are worried that once papers are signed she is history. If OM is out of picture for a specified period of time, and things still cannot be worked out, then she knows she will not totally lose, and you will have a fair chance at making M work with OM out of the way.

It's called negotiating the terms of the SA. Currently the SA is what she had drawn up, correct, you should have some input since this does involve your life and the childrens lives.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Sue,

You are right on the money! I actually have an appointment with my attorney tomorrow who is currently reviewing the SA she drew up.

I like your suggestions and will pass them by the attorney. Of course, just like JL and others above stated, this is war and I can see several battles coming up. Probably months of battles. And I am sure that she is not going to like those changes. I can hear it now. "You arent serious. You still try to be controlling and manipulative." Yada, yada, yada. So, should be interested.

Came home tonight and on the way back out to school, gave me a kiss and said she loved me. Plan A "seems" to be having an affect. Or is it just that I am being set-up? With tis alien, I have no idea. My wife never had a dishonest bone in her body. This one lies at the drop of the hat.

Even tonight, she starts a new class...her first night class. Supposed to get out at 10pm. It is 10:20pm and I have been wondering where she is or might go, especially if it lets out early. I could have conducted intel gathering to make sure she wasnt taking a pit stop (his house is between the school and our house), but I am trying to do a FULL Plan A and concentrate on myself. If I did that, then I would unload on her if I found out. She admitted yesterday that she had called him last Thursday for awhile after her school. So, I am stewing in my juices here thinking she might have gotten out early, maybe 9pm, and gone by there. She hasnt had the opportunity to see him (except dropping by his work) in over a month, so these night classes present a great opportunity. I guess this is one reason the Harleys suggest moving away...for the BS's peace of mind, as well as removing temptation. but I have to get her to cut this crap out first.

Anyway, good suggestion Sue. I'll let you all know what the attorney says tomorrow night.

Still fighting the war...not sure if I am winning or losing, but still standing!

In His arms.

I hope it all goes well with the attorney.

You have some valid concerns. I will say very few of my classes ever got out early. Depedning upon the class, class structure. For Art I took Pottery, (yeah I know. I didn't want anything I had to study for). We had lecture time, then lab. Lab had it structured ending time, but you left when you were done. (Unless you were like me who actually liked pottery and stayed, and I am not artistic. My H had a sense of humor over my projects). So, you have to do all you can to not let it bother you. Hopefully this will be one of those classes where the instructor takes it to the end of class time, every time. (That was my chemistry instructor).

As far as the changes if you Attorney can do it, tell her, just as she needs to know that she is not trapped, you need to know that she is not trying to take advantage of the love you have for her and you need some assurances that she will put a real effort into making the M work. What is negotiable for you let her know, so that she does not think that all of your changes are cut in stone. This way, she will see that you are serious about wanting her to be happy in the M, but it cannot be all one sided. You could tell her that you need to protect yourself, and you want to believe that she is sincere in wanting to work on the, and at the same time, you don't want to look the fool.

I hope she was sincere with the kiss and "I love you". I know this is hard to do. Do all you can for a plan a.

On a side note, I have a male friend, who is divored, W was WW, he was BS. He tried for 6 mo. to make M work, she would not give up OM, while they were in MC, so he started divorce proceedings. Yes they are divorced, OM is no longer in the picture, and she has told him she has second thoughts of the divorce. He on the ohter hand was hurt so badly that he will not give her another chance. He won't even date, burned to badly by the situation. I've tried to set him up. Anyway, my point is here, is that there is hope that she will see the light of day. (lets hope for your M and family that it will happen before things reach the point of no return for you as it was for my friend).

Hang in there -

Okay, everyone. Thanks for all of the encouragement. I just got back from my attorney and I'll tell you about it. Suffice it to say, Plan A is about to be severely tested.

First of all, the attorney. He said the document that my wife drew up is legal and is mostly "fair." It pretty much splits everything in half and gives us joint custody of the kids. The part he has a real problem with is that she is asking for $1100 a month to cover rent on an apartment if we split up until she finishes school next June. In Virginia, adultery causes the adultress to lose all access to alimony! My WW is definitely in a bad place. Added to the fact, she had the OM around the kids on a couple of occasions (not sleeping over or anything like that) and the law is pretty specific that I can get sole custody of my kids because of that and the whole affair. So, the WW is DEFINITELY in a bad place!

Now, he asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I WANT to reconcile my marriage. He said "Well, then dont sign anything. If you sign this, your marriage is over and we might as well sign divorce proceedings and get this thing moving." Just like everyone here has been saying! He stated that she is going to have to find a place to not fear me or feal trapped somewhere else because this document is legally binding and I am putting myself in a hell of a predicament by signing it. Like I said before, this is as if I had intercourse with her again, which is grounds for forgiveness in Virginia.

So, as we have all pointed out, I am between a rock and a hard place. No good decisions here. And when I tell my WW for the second time that "I know I said I would sign it, but I have changed my mind," her alien head is going to come clear off her shoulders. I am not sure how to break this to her without her losing her mind.

I talked this afternoon with a close friend of hers that I hadnt talked to since before I left. Her husband knows the OM. All through last fall, this friend kept asking my WW what the hell she was doing. She was acting like a school girl in heat, and bashing me at the same time as being a bad husband for years, that I treated her like s***, and that the OM was this muscle bound hotty from the gym that everyone knew and he treated her great. Her friend, as well as everyone else we know, looked at her with amazement. First of all, that she was even doing this. To everyone around us, we were the last couple anyone would suspect this would happen to. My WW was constantly helping other friends relationships. So, to see her like she was brought a huge shock to everyone back here while I was deployed.

Even today, I found some brochures for hospitals looking for nurses in Florida (where this guy owns his house...he is temporarily working in Virginia for the last year, with one more year left). So, I know somewhere in there, his and her plans to get together and have maybe a marriage was in full bloom.

But, I dont think she took into full account that her kids would not be allowed to leave Virginia, that her adultery would take EVERYTHING away from her. I think she thought she could trust me to be a good guy and just go along with their plans. But, she has realized that I do love her, and like many here, are willing to go through the depths of hell to save our WS. Even her friend said that she knows of no guy that would go to this extent to save their marriage, including her own husband.

Her friend talked about the OM. Said she thought he was an idiot, and didnt see what my WW saw in him. Said that he hates spending money and that he has told her many times that if they are together, he isnt going to support her shopping habits. This is a big LB with her. But I think she thought she could just get her nursing career and take care of herself.

Anyway, wife just got home. More later!!

I'm glad you decided not to sign. She will have to trust that you want to make it work.

Besides, even if you were fair in the distribution of current propery, I would not pay her alimony. Why should you support her to finish school? This is her choice, not yours.

This might be a LB, but you might have to wait on the SF, until you are sure that the M will work. You don't need wipe the slate clean, she finishes school, and take the kids to Florida. I'd hate to see the kids hurt by that. Would she be that deceitful?

Did she come home right after school? or what appeared to be right after school?

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Thanks for the response Sue.

Well, first of all, she did come straight home from school. I may be being a fool, but with her packed schedule with school, and working as a nurse extern, as well as I feel like Plan A is working because she seems to want to be around the house more...but the fool part comes from believing that they are not meeting, that she has just been talking to him. We had a fight Wed night and Thurs morning, and we had planned to go to the pool as a family and then go see firewaorks in DC. But, instead, she took the kids to the pool in the morning. Last night, she admitted that she called the OM on the way to the pool, saying she was just checking on how he was doing.

Plan A "seems" to be working, but part of me thinks that I am just being set-up and no matter if things work out or not with OM, she is just biding her time. The rest of me thinks it sees improvement and that she is just still in the fog and it will take time to work this out. Enough to drive you crazy, huh?

The fight we had was a major LB on my part because she had come to me about something she was going to do with a study partner of hers (she asked her partner to be there for her and take care of her after her breast surgery in August...yes, I'm paying for her bigger breasts!!). Well that hurt me but my WW brings up when I wasnt there for this or that and that she doesnt trust me to be there for her. Anyway, early on in their relationship last fall, the OM had offered to pay for them for her birthday (I am getting angry!!). So, I blurt out that maybe she should have him pay for them instead of me. Well, there was a major LB!! She commenced to tell me that I had better watch my mouth, that my mouth is what keeps me getting in trouble with her and making things digress. So, I screwed up.

The rest of the night and the next day had to do with the fight continuing, with her saying she was just tired of all of this, that she cant afford with school to be going through all of this and dealing with our marriage. I have talked with a few of her girlfriends, and she has left them with the impression that whether the OM is there or not, she is looking to assert herself, to possibly be on her own and "make my own decisions." Of course, when I question her, she backpedals on this. But, it throws me off because we seem to be doing a little better, and then she is telling me that she still has feelings for OM, doesnt love me and cant see how we get it back. That if I dont sign these papers taking the threats away, then she has no reason to work any further on this because she is scared of me. Same old crap, up and down. Forget being a doormat, I am on a damn rollercoaster!

I signed the agreement and showed it to her but am still in position of it (although I think by tomorrow, she will ask for it). Once she knew I signed it (Friday), it seems that she was right about the threats and the pressure because we have gotten along reasonably well this weekend, with her even snuggling up in bed. Yesterday, I made some off hand comment about the OM, and she told me she wishes I wouldnt do that because it makes her think of him and then she starts missing him.

So, I know she is at least still talking to him once or twice a week. But, she wants me to not make her think of him. What gives? Are they on the way out and I am just prolonging it by saying anything or getting in the way? Am I being played by both of them? If not, then even if he goes, there is still this thing out there that she might leave anyway because she is this big independent woman who is going to take care of herself and never trust again anyone to take care of her needs. So, if this is the case, then I wont be fighting the affair anymore, I will just be fighting her new impression on what her world is supposed to be like.

So, thats the update. any comments or questions would be appreciated.

In His arms.

Hi,
I understand where you are coming from. None of us wants to play the part of the fool.

If anyone with far more experience disagrees, please my all means, jump in here. As much as you want to, I would try to refrain from mentioning OM. When she is ready, she will talk about it. (I know, does not make sense, the BS is the injured spouse, and the WS gets treated with kid gloves). One, you don't want to reminde her of him. NC would be better than any contact, but, if they are only talking on the phone, how long will he put up with that. I don't agree with her having phone contact, at least it isn't physical contact. Hopefully, he will get tired of her not having any time for him and he will find someone else and will not be around when she calls.

My personal opinion on boob jobs. (But then again, I'm naturally well endowed, so I don't know what it is like to not have any). Boob jobs should be for reduction. Bigs ones are in the way, and more of a hinderance. Also, all the cute clothes are made for smaller breasted women. Ironically my H and I heard on the radio on our way home from Missouri, the DJ's were asking women to call in if they had a boob job, how did they feel about it, how much did it cost, and who paid. All the women said they felt better about themselves. The D's also said other stuff which I will not go into. Mostly derogarotory stuff.

As far as her wanting her study partner to take care of her, that is probably because she does not want you to see her with incisions on her breasts. She probably would rather that you see them after they are healed. I had a cyst removed from my back and I didn't want my H to see my back until it was healed (I know, dumb, but it was ugly looking and I didn't want him to see it.

I would go back to doing Plan A, try not to mention OM. As much as you want to know where he is in her life, you want your time with her to be about you and her. Not you,her and him

Well, all...a HUGE update from what I just posted. And I am MORE confused than ever!!

after I posted Sunday, my WW was supposed to come home somewhere between 11pm and 1am from her nursing job in the ER at the local hospital (2 miles from our house). Around 10pm, I went online at our house to do a bible study and try to focus on myself for awhile in order to be ready for her to come home. Friday, Saturday and Sunday had been pretty good between us, even after the LB I did on July 4th. So I was looking forward to her coming home.

Anyway, around 11pm, I got this sick feeling that something wasnt right, mostly from a conversation we had the night before when she said she wished I would not bring the OM up, because it made her miss him. So, I'm sitting there, starting to have a major anxiety attack, and I call my brother to ask him to go over and just check to see if her car is still at the hospital. he does, calls me on his cell, and tells me it is still there. I breathed a sigh of relief, when he calls me back a minute later saying he saw my WW walking fast to her car and tore off. 15 minutes later I call my brother and tell him that she still hasnt gotten home, so he heads over to OM's house. he calls me and says she isnt there, but then checks the townhouses around there and finds my WW's car a block down the street in another townhouse community.

Well, I freak out, tell my brother to come get the key and disable her car...let's see what happens!! So, after she has been there about 20 minutes, she comes out, car wont start and calls me, unloading on me on what have I done to her car. She is now walking home at 12:30am (a 7 mile walk). she hangs up on me and shows up 10 minutes later (come to find out, she had called OM and told him what happened and he came and drove her back to our house, but dropped her off down the street because she was afraid of what I would do to him).

Well, suffice it to say, World War III happened!!! Of course, I was completely wrong for having her followed (she is still pissed at my family's involvement in digging up the A while I was gone and this just made her go back into that nothing has changed and that I pick my family over her) and that he is just a friend now (since March) and that she had tried to call me to tell me that she was upset and was going over there, but I was online. So, she did try to call me (but telling me she was going over just to talk for a few minutes is okay??/ someone help me here!!). Anyway, she said she had a patient at the end of her shift that had been abused, that in her nursing classes, someone had given her some chart and said i might be an abuser (which we had figured out wasnt true 3 weeks ago when we discussed it), but this woman brought up her fears, she felt anxious, and thus said she HAD to talk to OM to help calm her down. She said she would have told me (she tried to call me before) that she went over and what they talked about.

Anyway, looks like I helped his love bank a lot there because he listened to her (even though she said he was pissed for waking him up and him having to hear this crap so late), that he was mad at the way I was treating her (by following her and disabling her car...thus he becomes the hero of the night), and he brings her home. Meanwhile, we get into it for two hours and she keeps re-iterating that he is now her friend (obviously, there are still emotional needs she wants met by him...EA, instead of PA).

The next morning, I call into work and we go back at it. But a strange thing happened. During the discussion, I just said it was over (I even left a message for Steve Harley that I was headed to the courthouse) and that maybe we should have one more sexual fling before we destroy this. Well, about an hour later, we are now exhausted from fighting, laying on the bed...and then IT happens!! Twice! It has been 10 months since I had been with my wife, I can tell that she was telling th truth that nothing has happened since March in that area.

Well, she leaves with a girlfriend after that, with the separation papers that I signed, gives them to her girlfriend to store somewhere at another friends house 20 miles away (she never signed them herself) and then went to get her car. After shopping and the gym, she came home that evening and WOW! What a change. she was thanking me for dinner. We got the kids down. She said (and looked really tired), so we were headed to bed, when she says she wants more. Two times more. I am sitting here when this is all going on saying "What the hell is going on???" Anyway, we have been pretty good to each other since the first time yesterday morning. Oh, one note. After the first times Monday morning, I told her that I know she thinks he is a friend, but it is either going to be him or me around and that to keep him as a friend is to lose me forever...all contact. She said she would tell me something last night. Last night, I asked her (right before she asked for more SF needs to be met!) what her decision was...she said she had been too tired to think about it...so I did not press it.

Anyway, today, she calls me from school at a hospital near his work (I was afraid that she would stop by to see him after all of this) saying she was heading straight home to get some coffee, relax, and wait til I got there before she went to her night class. She then said today was a very emotional day. I asked why. She said she would tell me when I get home. Now, is it from what happened yesterday? Or has she talked to him today, told him what happened and he went off? Yesterday, after the first time, she said "Why did we do that? This has confused things now." So, have I broken the ice?

Her top needs are financial support, affection, and sexual fulfillment. I have been unable to fill the #2 and #3 since I got back, although it seems that he has not been able to do #3 since the breakup(???) before I got back. So, I have cleaned up our financial deal since I got home and everything is looking great. i have been meeting all her other needs (family, domestic support while she is in school, conversation, etc). But, after yesterday, i am hopeful that I have broken into those top three and can start making large depostis in her Love Bank and maybe send this thing on!! I also made another appointment with Steve (for both of us together) and hopefully he can dovetail his advice and plan into these changes.

I am in a very dangerous position people. If I get home and she regrets what happens yesterday, then what? if it is problems with OM, then GREAT. If it is that this broke the ice and she can FINALLY start feeling some of that love she says she can never get back, then GREAT> With this out of the way and her having the separation agreement, she has now been forgiven legally for the A. that has been a big problem, as you can read in previous posts. I even feel releaved because I no longer have the ability tpo threaten her (some of my major LBs so far) when she does something or I get angry.

Anyone want to analyze all of this. I'll post later what happens when I get home. Pray for us!!! this may be a difining moment!

In His arms!!

Mortarman:

Geezus! Lots of developments there! I've been away from your thread for a while, but...

...why the heck did you sign that agreement?

Now I'm confused.

Mortarman,

I think you got backed up in a corner, when she made you sign those papers. And sending them off with a friend 20 miles away, THAT is an LB!

I wouldn't read much in the SF, maybe you are breaking the ice, maybe there is just so much she can go without SF of any kind.

She is still in contact with OM, she has the agreement signed, she has got you good, and you have got it real bad.
I'd draft a counter agreement for her and you to sign, involving OM out of the picture. If she is all about security, then tell her she should understand you are so too.

Mortarman, a part of my head tells me she is really playing you. Women use sex as one of their final weapons, they hit you, you sign the paper, the paper goes off the door, then she has to let you down slowly telling you she is "confused". And you are screwed.

It could be the other happy outcome, she has a change of heart.

But if she tells you it is a mistake... RUN not walk to your lawyer, and get prepared, because she has made her move to get you were she wanted, all ready to pay for whatever she may like, and then dispose you.

I hope with all my heart that is not the case, i really do, please be strong. She has all she wanted now.

Now there are no excuses for her to break contact with OM, there are no excuses not to work in M. No matter what she says, if she backs up... she is a user.

Exactly the question I had.

Why did you sign that agreement?

Hi Mortarman,

I hope for you that she does not have regrets.

I had more I was going to say, but at this point, I think I should leave it unsaid. I was going to comment on the abuse issue. What I will say is, that she needs to learn how to deal with it without running to someone else because she is scared. Just because a chart says traits are abusive, does it mean that you are abusive. She didn't think you were abusive until she saw this chart. There is more to defining abuse than a chart. The chart is a guideline, not an the answer.

Technically my H is emotionally abusive, having an A is emotional abuse. Being disrespectful is verbal abuse. Now, I think everyone is guilty of that at some time or another, does that make us abusive.

It reminds me of what makes a person an alcoholic, by the standards of AA, my dad is an alcoholic because during the summer he has about 3 beers every night. It tastes good after a hot day of working. Come winter, he drinks maybe one or two beers a week.

Hi Mortarman,

With regard to SF - my experience is that my WW used/uses it quite effectively as a weapon & for manipulation. When she's cross she would starve me, or only give that much for me not to go completely bonkers. On the other hand, when she wants to "get" me, she does all the right things, at the right frequency (only then to phone/email OM an hour later).

Sad but true - but dont read ANYTHING into SF while A is still going on.

N

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will try to answer everyone's questions, and also update you on what happened last night. it seems everything is VERY fluid right now and I can tell we are close to something happening to finally get things moving one way or another. but more on that later.

First off, most of you posted, asking the question why I gave that paperwork to her. Most of you have read my previous posts on this, and how I have agonized on what to do. There never seemed to be the RIGHT thing to do, that would insure success, one way or the other. It seemed it was damned if I do, damned if I dont. Anyway, after talking to Steve Harley, we agreed that if I had no problem with what was in it, then I could sign it to see if it will get her moving. At the very least, it will get her off the dime and I can find out where her heart and mind truly lie. So, I signed it, showed it to her, but she never took it (this was last Friday). So, I remained in possession of it all weekend. She never even asked for it. And except for that big blow up Sunday night when she went to talk to the OM (read posts above), we have had a great weekend together, and very close since I showed her I signed it. So, maybe she has been telling the truth and that my constant threats to hammer her, take everything and she'll be on the streets was keeping her from doing anything but hating me (more on the hate part later). Or, maybe it is the other way, she got her way and now is free of any shackles to me and can now move on. does anyone really know the answer to that? I dont think so. I know I do not. But I do know the changes in her I saw after that, and like I said, except for her seeing that abused woman in the ER and she freaked out, called him, and went to talk to him for 20 minutes (she even tried to call me and tell me what she was going to do), our relationship "SEEMS" to be a lot better over the last 5 days.

In the agreement, I basically gave up my right to take everything, including sole custody to the kids. My attorney didnt have a problem with any of that, as long as I didnt. What he had a problem with was paying $1100 a month in alimony until June 2003 to help her finish school. Of course, it wouldnt be paid until we actually separated. He thought that I shouldnt pay it. but, I really dont care about that either because even if she left today, that's justabout $12,000 and then I would be through with her. The money is not really the issue with me. If I can take a chance on losing $12,000 and saving my marriage, then I decided it was worth the risk. I can always make more money. In the meantime, if she leaves, she will at least see a guy (Plan A) that had changed, that gave up all his weapons to hammer her, and she even has to recognize the name on the checks that are supporting her until she graduates. So, if she leaves and we go to Plan B, she will be forced to keep recognizing the new, REAL me, and as things deteriorate between her and OM, and as she becomes lonely again, she will have nothing but my honest effort to bring her back to confront her. So, by doing this, I keep Plan A moving, but also make a huge effort toward keeping the pressure on her during Plan B, if it comes to that.

Now, I still hadnt given it to her. it was still in my possession. then the sex thing happened on Monday. According to virginia law, if you have sexual intercourse with your WS, you have forgiven them. It is as if it didnt happen, that the marriage has been restored. So, giving her the SA after that was easy because, in reality, since I had "forgiven" her, then any divorce would probably fall along these lines. now, I may have been a fool to have sex with her Monday, but like I said before, plus what happened last night, I think I have seen the first REAL movement by her in the last two days since this whole thing started last september, and definitely since I came home from Bosnia in April. One of you said that the SF may have just been her going too long without out it, coupled with a desire to now slowly back out of the M, now that she has what she wants. Could be. I dont discount that and considering everything, that is a very big possibility. She might just slowly back out, saying she tried, gave her best effort and it just wont work. But, she is still in my home, in my bed, she is still moving to our new home in two weeks, and she is still talking about us, more than ever. So, maybe we are actually headed in a positive direction.

Last night, as I eluded in my previous post, I came home to her after she called me on the way home saying she had a very emotional day on Tuesday. She wanted me to come home and talk to her. I got home, and she was wiped out, taking a nap. When she woke up, she looked very tired, so I didnt press her. Things got bad right after that because she got some mail with some bad news on her financial aid, so she spent the rest of her time on the phone before going to her night class, talking to the college. Right before she left, she came downstairs, saying that she was comletely stressed out (three tests this week, plus this financial aid thing, plus us) and that she doesnt think it was a good idea for us to have slept together and that now it has confused everything. I wanted to kind of go off on her, but I did what Steve said, just nodded my head and let her vent, saying "I understand" at the appropriate moments.

Anyway, she leaves to go to the gym for an hour, and then on the way to school, she calls me on her cell saying "I just wanted to call you and say I am sorry for going off on you. i just had a rough day at school, plus this financial aid thing. please just know that I am sorry and I'll be home right after class." Wow! that is the first apology, any apology, since the whole thing started last September. I didnt poress for it. As a matter of fact, before she left for the gym, I pretty much said nothing to her rant. On her own, she calls me, basically making sure that I dont get mad or hurt at what she had said. guys and gals...that is a HUGE break through. I'm not saying we are at recovery or anything like that...it is just the first movement on her part, without being prompted or forced. she was actually thinking of me and what she had done, and wanted to apologize. Huge!

anyway, when she got home from school, she seemed a little better, although very tired. I didnt press anything, trying my damndest to Plan A my [censored] off (no LBs!!). While she was telling me about her day and what pissed her off, she then got back to us. During the whole A, and especially since I returned home, she has talked about and shown nothing but her anger for me, for what she says is me not being there for her and setting her up where she was so lonely that she would do something like this (I know...fog talk!). Anyway, she says what I did with the sex thing, as well as giving her the agreement, has confused things now. She says "You dont understand...for me, I had decided last Septemeber that this marriage was over." she then said that as of yesterday, the anger left her. But she said what replaced it was a deep sense of hurt. And she said while she still hasnt reached regret or guilt, the hurt comes from what I did, what she did, and the fact now that I am bringing up feelings, both positive and negative, that she never wanted to feel or deal with again with me. She then said that she feels like she is being manipulated (I think sort of a hit at MB and Steve because she has read everything, knows Plan A and B, and probably thinks that she is being Plan Aed into this against her will (more fog talk and thinking).

Anyway guys, I just sat there, listened, told her that I too was confused but that I was fully committed to making it work. She then asked me if I had, or would, make another appointment for her and us with Steve. Again...WOW! she had been saying for the last two weeks since she talked to Steve the first time, that she wasnt going back until she felt safe again and had her guarantees (SA). Well, she comes to me asking to make sure that I have an appointment set up.

So, there we are. the night ended with us kissing and going to bed and started well today as she left for school. For all of you concerned about the SA, by having intercourse, that is really no longer the issue. Also, I took someone's advice on here and sneaked in an area in it that says during separation, we are to act as if married and have no EAs or PAs. thus, if she decides to separate and go toward divorce, and use this agreement, then she will be forced not to see him or anyone else in a romantic way. I dont think she saw that, it was buried in the fine print. So, at this time, the SA is irrelevent. She didnt even sign it herself, but immediately had a friend store it 20 miles away, I guess in case she decides to use it later and so it cant be wisked away by me in the meantime.

Again, I can see the downfall to all of this and I know that we are in a very dangerous position. but, she showed me over the last two days, for the first time since this all began, that behind her anger, she still has feelings for me. the question now is, will she walk out of the fog now and take the chance? Or, will she get scared, run back in and push me away, effectively sending us into Plan B and toward divorce?

I so much want to "educate" her in the fact that she is so close to us getting things rolling. But I will follow Steve and keep my mouth shut, fulfill her needs (I guess her #3, SF, will be on hold for awhile until she accepts what happened Monday and settles down from it) and keep Plan Aing. At least our thing Monday, plus the SA, has now allowed me to start meeting her #2 (affection) because we have been kissing and holding hands ever since. even last night, she reached over and grabbed my hand as we fell asleep.

So, the optimist in me may be ignoring things here, but I do know two things. Most of these things point toward a positive movement (althoug we will see if it keeps going that way). And second, at least we are now having some movement. Most of my LBs have been my frustration with the lack of movement.

Anyway, thanks for the posts and trying to keep me on the straight and narrow. In military terms, I have now completely committed my forces to this engagement and I am now out in the open. This next battle, I think, will well decide the war. I have no room for mistakes now.

In His arms!

I see potential. I hope it is there. From a woman's prespective, the hand holding is an intimate gesture. I love it when my H puts his arm around me in bed or just touches me when I come to bed.

I hope things continue forward for you. With the full plate that she has, I don't think she would add MC in there if she did not want to make it work.

Keep us posted.

Thanks for the response Sue. Yeah, I thought everything looked good too. but one thing I have learned about the fog is that just when you can see a break in it, the wind changes and it blows the WS right back into denial, anger and rage.

For the last two days, my WW has tried to re-write what happened Monday, just as she has re-written our marital history to show me as a monster. We were sitting on the couch together, watching TV and I was massaging her head on Wednesday, when I said something about Monday and how I felt a lot closer to her. She immediately sat up, turned around and looked at me as if my head had come off. She asked me what in the hell I was talking about. I told her I thought that Monday was a great step and I loved the closeness and getting back just a small part of us. She said that I am so diconnected from her feelings, that the first time Monday was because she thought I was so angry that I was headed to the lawyer and was giving me "one last time." And the second time that night, she said, was her just fulfilling sexual needs, because she hadnt "had any" since the beginning of March, when supposedly their PA ended (EA still continues, sort of).

I confronted her with what she said that day, and on Tuesday. about being confused, wanting to talk to Steve harley, and about noloner being angry, but instead hurt. And about this bringing up feelings, both positive and negative, that she didnt want to deal with. She re-iterated that she had decided last Sept, right before the A started, that our marriage was over. She said I had misconstrued what happened and what was said Sunday and monday. of course, I know what I heard and what I saw. And that isnt even close to what she is saying.

I talked to Steve Harley yesterday, and he again stated the obvious. monday was a good sign, but I need to expect that things will not proceed in an orderly fashion. With every gain, there may also be setbacks. Coming out of the fog is scary for the WS and I have to expect many more setbacks before we are free and clear of this. He said this just goes to show that I am still fully in Plan A, that she hasnt completely broken off the relationship with the OM, and that I need to stay focused on Plan A, because it is working so far.

So, there probably wont be anymore sex for awhile, because she has pulled back into the fog. But the memory of Monday will haunt her, and if I can stay with Plan A, no LBs, then it will force her to peek back out of the fog again (hopefully soon), and make another tentative step out. the last two days I have been hurt, and showed it to her. Steve says I need to be an actor, and act the part as the confident husband, that everything is good and that everything is going to get better. Show a positive, confident man. "Fake it until you make it!" So, my WW came home last night from a study group to find me upbeat, and it really threw her off. but the time we went to bed, the last two days had finally calmed down.

I can see Plan A working every time I try it. it's just hard to do, as everyone here knows, because sometimes you cannot see things moving, or if you do, many times it looks like things are moving backwards. So, I am actually going to write out my Plan A so that when she starts her crap again, I can go and focus on what I am supposed to do, and stay on the Plan. This is no different than a military mission, where you have your orders, and you must not worry about what everyone around you is doing or if they are okay...just concentrate on what you are doing and what you are supposed to be doing...and everything will turn out.

This is the hardest thing I have ever done!

In His arms.

How are things going?

Hey Sue...thanks for asking.

Well, things are still crazy, but so it goes in our world, huh? Trying to Plan A my [censored] off. Pretty successful since last week. WW even commented last night that she noticed i hadn't said anything about the A or OM in the last week and a half. She is suspicious though of some ulterior motive. She did tell me that they have barely talked in the last two weeks, but qualified it by saying that "when would I have time? Look at my work and school schedule." So, she wants me to think they arent really talking, but that the reason is that she just hasnt had time.

She has been spending a lot more time with me when she is home. Since I have stopped the confrontations, she has been less likely to want to be somewhere else (girlfriends house, etc). Even when she has started things, I have refused to go that route and just ended the conversation. Tough, but I think I have a handle on it.

SF needs came up last night. She talked about her need but again raised the issue that she shouldnt have been with me last week. I asked her again "why?" She first said that she has a whole truckload of anger towards me for how I "treated" her the last two years before I left for bosnia last fall. She also said that several of my LBs since I got home have fueled this anger. she then said that because of all this, she doesnt have those kind of feelings for me.

She still shows signs that she doesnt care if I come or go, and then later shows signs that she is beginning to get interested. Most of the time, it is the attitude of "well, you have your choices...so go make them." With us closing on our house next week and moving into a rental, I have been very close to Plan B and kicking her out as I take the kids to the new house. But she turns around, and shows me things that make me think that Plan A is actually working. She talked to a mutual friend of ours the other night (she actually went with me to a party there!) and started asking questions about me. Our friend seems to believe that she is now confused, that OM is pretty much out of the picture (but not completely), and that she just has no idea how she gets over the anger she has. Another is she asked me out tonight to celebrate our closing of the house. She wants us to go to a restaurant/bar that a friend owns. it is also where many of the OM's friends hangout. My WW spent many nights here while I was gone, crying on our friend's shoulder and getting drunk...because of the situation she was in (right in the middle of the A). So, for her to want to go there with me is BIG.

But again, I still have this sick feeling that she isnt going to make it. That all of this is just her staying comfortable as the thing ends with the OM, getting her feet back under her, concentrating on school/work, and then getting around to her love life later, in which I see her finding someone else. This is my recurring nightmare. I think she is possibly sitting in the perfect position for her to be approached by someone new, so she can make that final leap. I think she knows the deal with the OM is over. But she wont fully commit to completely end it. And she wont commit back to me. So, I continue to meet whatever needs I can, she feels comfortable and happy, and nothing moves forward. And I continue to suffer.

We sort of talked about that last night, where she just said she was sorry but she doesnt see how she gets over the anger. We have an appointment with Steve Harley next week, but I see Steve trying to start the plan, and her backing away. I just feel she is so close, and then she turns around and says things that make me think she hasnt moved an inch. She still seems to be the woman who doesnt love me anymore, has all of this anger that she cant get rid of, and cannot see how she can ever love me again or live with me forever. but, then after saying that, she invites me out to celebrate, she is spending most of her off time from work and school with me finally, she calls me from work in the ER just to say goodnight (when she is working the graveyard shift) and is moving with me next week to our new home. She told our mutual friend the other night that I need to understand that she is making all the effort that she can, and that being that she is still there. she told her that she just doesnt have anything else to give right now.

So, positive things laced in there, I guess. but she is the master of turning those around and making them seem like they were no big deal and that she still believes that her and I are over with...that there is no way back. of course, when I have questioned her on that and if she wants a divorce, she says that I know what she told me (which is yes)...but then I question further on why she isnt ready to do it right now, especially since I gave her the separation agreement and let her off the hook, she really has no answers. She just says she is confused and doesnt know. thinks I am brain washing her or something because she had made up her mind this was over before she started the A last fall and now she says she is confused.

Anyway, I hope Steve can make heads or tails of this. I showed a letter put on this bulleting board from a WS to all WS's to my WW last night. She said it was interesting, but that she doesnt believe she is in a fog. That the OM is not the issue anymore and that she just doesnt know if she can overcome the anger. Dunno. Maybe she is different. maybe she is right. maybe the A wasnt really an A (okay..I know it was because we are still married but she maintains that if I hadnt been in Bosnia in a combat zone, she would have separated from me before starting this A). Maybe she was looking for a future without me. But, as I said to her, she had left, went looking for a future somewhere else. And somehow she is still here. What gives? She says it is because she is afraid (afraid of losing everything...although now that she has separation agreement, that isnt an issue...afraid of what I might do to her, the OM, myself if she leaves, etc). it is all fog, I know. But she is convinced. I just hope she become unconvinced. I told her last night that I was becoming tired. She said "with Plan A and B?" (She has read everything from the Harleys). What she meant was if I was tired of Plan A and ready for Plan B. Well, even if I was, I know it wouldnt affect her. She would just roll with it, get her new place, and truck on. So, I continue to sit in my mess and be the doormat, hoping for some breakthrough.

Well, that's the update. Wish I had more info so I had a better grasp on what she is doing. but it may be that she doesnt know what she is doing. And THAT is ver dangerous.

In His arms.