</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I asked him if maybe Plan B was an option to get her to "fish or cut bait"; he said not yet. He still feels she's making progress, and that as we advance it will become impossible for her NOT to reveal the A, and everything else...I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, or if I can wait that long...but I'll try.

He feels she's making slow progress, and that the MB weekend will be great in terms of her "geting it" more, and that she agreed to answer the questions... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You can do this Spacey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear Spacecase,

I have been following your posts for awhile....I think you really are making some positive progress.

The Marriage Builder weekend would be great....at least a wonderful way to talk about how to make your marriage better....

I wish I could have convinced my H to go. You are lucky--at least she is thinking about it. Pat

SC,
From my vantage point, I agree, there seems to be positive signs. I can feel with you that there should be more progress quicker, but perhaps that is not realisitic -
To think that she is receptive to talking to Steve & also the weekend thing -- WOW -- that says a lot!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
This has to be a challenge for Steve & for you -- he has to keep your W's confidence & in that sense I suppose he cannot tell you everything --like I wonder if he asks her point blank about contact & how she reacted specifically -Di she flat out deny any contact ...or respond with a, maybe ...or, I don't want to say? Just curious.
Steve eveidently is saying to back off the prove thing -- I assume that as you work through the reconcilation phase it is obvious she has to come clean about the contact & she will be making a committment to work on marriage & therfore it is apparent about the no contact thing. This is a very interesting process -- Please keep us updated!
At any rate, it sounds like it would be to your benefit to try & hold out & be patient. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Later this week to get your answers is not that far away.
Peace,
HH

I appreciate everyone's support; I really do. I am trying very, very hard to keep my M together, to not hurt my W even if she does leave me, my children, my life.

My W's reality, however, is somewhat different, as you can all see. She continues her A, she blatantly refuses to see anything wrong with what she's doing, and she maintains this "in-your-face" attitude about the A, going to FL again, etc. and it is very hard to keep it together.

I honestly do not know if I really wish to continue down this seemingly endless path...I'm not so sure I want to anymore. I've pretty much lost faith in my W ever being or becoming the person with whom I want to share the rest of my life.

Spacey,
Do you feel like you've truly expressed to Steve how tired you are? How low your love bank is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Spacey,
Do you feel like you've truly expressed to Steve how tired you are? How low your love bank is?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think so....I haven't been desperate or frothing at the mouth or anything....have told him I'll do my best to follow his advice...

maybe he takes that as "he's OK; he can hang on a bit"...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Spacey,
Do you feel like you've truly expressed to Steve how tired you are? How low your love bank is?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,
This would echo my sentiments or question -- I would definitly feel as you do about the trip to FL -- A or not, this does not seem to be in keeping with any Marriage Enrichment principle!

You are having the conference call with Steve in a few days right? This Fl thing has to be a priority -- even if she chooses to deny A!! In your current state of flux with the M, I agree it makes no sense for her to running off to FL, for what ever reason!
Have you read Dibson's book - I believe it could validate a lot of what we are saying here. You do not need to be a doormat & a plan B kind of action may be waht is called for to get her attention -- no guarantees no matter what you do unfortunately, but IMHO, it could help level the playing field -- it seems she always takes an upper hand. Perhaps because she does not think you will do certain things -- could advantage of you.
Please hang in there -- Your W may be totally confused but have such a disposition of wanting to show strength & pride and all that she has difficulty being open with you - like perhaps she knows she may not be as tolerant if tables were reversed and therefore she is not trusting to open -- perhaps that a focal point what Steve is working on with her.

Peace be with you!

Sheesh!

Well that's decided it! I was hemming and hawing about changing my name to something more positive - this one is an old family name and I couldn't think of anything better at the time - but SS is the 2nd one to misread my handle as Oldie - so here goes!
I'll be trading up for a new me - so look out - I'll be wearing my favourite color - and that way, my H won't recognize me once this name fades off the board.

Spacecase - I know you're tired - I am, too - but
I think Steve is right - you should wait to go to plan B until after the MB weekend (if she follows through and goes), even if she does go to FL. If she goes to FL and after the MB weekend, she does not start to come clean and make definite changes, then you can always use her trip to FL as proof that she is determined to have her own way regardless of how it affects you - is it Steve who says that the person who will not agree to PJA is saying that what he (she) wants is more important to him (her) than how their spouse feels? In the meantime, try to get out of the house and away from her - take H2U up on his offer and have a beer - concentrate on your kids - try to stop thinking about her at least for a little while -

Hey, I saw my H off at the train station today, came home and started reconstructing my kitchen - well, not quite - but I put up the shelves I have been wanting for years - figured out how to use the power drill! He'll be surprised when he comes back, but hey, it's done, and we didn't even argue about it - cause he wasn't here! LOL Sorry!

Odile

it's not you, it's me. Had this problem all my life. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL.

I'm not laughing, I feel BAD.
Sorry.

Hi SC,

You are quite a guy to be trying to save your M for your WW's sake because SHE doesn't realize what she will lose and you forsee her regret. Have you no needs at all? Is this what true love is all about? What keeps you going? I am not being sarcastic here but truly wonder how you have the energy to deal with your own devastated emotions and still be able to work toward building the future. Some might counsel you to cut your losses and walk . . . And I know you have a family and kids and 20 years of marriage behind you. Just seems to me your W might just need the shock of hearing that your life could go on without her. Just a thought. I do wish you the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by odile:
<strong>...
Spacecase - I know you're tired - I am, too - but
I think Steve is right - you should wait to go to plan B until after the MB weekend (if she follows through and goes), even if she does go to FL. If she goes to FL and after the MB weekend, she does not start to come clean and make definite changes, then you can always use her trip to FL as proof that she is determined to have her own way regardless of how it affects you - is it Steve who says that the person who will not agree to PJA is saying that what he (she) wants is more important to him (her) than how their spouse feels? In the meantime, try to get out of the house and away from her - take H2U up on his offer and have a beer - concentrate on your kids - try to stop thinking about her at least for a little while...

Odile</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Odile; don't sweat the name thing...it's a natural mistake... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I get calles Spacey, Cadet, SC, Spaceboy, all kinds of stuff... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

OK, I am not going to do anything crazy, I'm going to wait for the question session with Steve, see how that goes, and wait and see if we can make it to the MB Weekend thing, if my W's still up for it, and we can manage the arrangements, and if all of this happens, we'll re-evaluate the situation then. No Plan B for now...

I will need LOTS of support while Wifey's in FL, though....jeez! I wish I could ask her not to go...maybe I'll run it by Steve...?
I think it's too much too soon to ask that, but it can't hurt, can it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>SC,
...To think that she is receptive to talking to Steve & also the weekend thing -- WOW -- that says a lot!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...yes and no. She has been working with Steve, but I feel she's been superficial...like doing the bare minimum, her heart not really in it...you know what I mean? It only increses that nagging feeling of imminent deception!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This has to be a challenge for Steve & for you -- he has to keep your W's confidence & in that sense I suppose he cannot tell you everything --like I wonder if he asks her point blank about contact & how she reacted specifically -Di she flat out deny any contact ...or respond with a, maybe ...or, I don't want to say? Just curious. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as I know, and as far as when I've been on the phone with her and Steve, she maintains that the A is over, has been over for "more than 2 months"....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Steve eveidently is saying to back off the prove thing -- I assume that as you work through the reconcilation phase it is obvious she has to come clean about the contact & she will be making a committment to work on marriage & therfore it is apparent about the no contact thing. This is a very interesting process -- Please keep us updated!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, he's not REALLY saying that. What he IS saying is that in the abscence of DEFINITIVE proof, this process will eventually bring out the truth by itself.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
At any rate, it sounds like it would be to your benefit to try & hold out & be patient. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Later this week to get your answers is not that far away.
Peace,
HH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed...I have to find a way to hang on a bit longer, maybe we'll get a surprise or two when the "questions" session with Steve happens...who knows what will happen tomorrow?

I am trying to figure out what I'll do to not go nuts while she's in FL....that's going to be very hard. Last time I held out the hope that she was not going to see him...but that turned out to be a false hope. This time....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
...SC,
This would echo my sentiments or question -- I would definitly feel as you do about the trip to FL -- <strong>A or not, this does not seem to be in keeping with any Marriage Enrichment principle!

You are having the conference call with Steve in a few days right? This Fl thing has to be a priority -- even if she chooses to deny A!! In your current state of flux with the M, I agree it makes no sense for her to running off to FL, for what ever reason!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree and I am going to bring it up with Steve. Maybe a miracle will happen!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I do have Dobson's book...working my way to it!

Hey SS - don't feel bad! I'm not upset! I was only kidding! But I AM going to change my name - I been thinkin bout it for a while now - I tried about half an hour ago but I got myself all tangled up in my private e-mail accounts - sounding like a WS here! It said i couldn't use my hotmail account because Odile already is registered under that ac, so I put dwn my yahoo acc, but forgot my ID bcos I never use that one - what do I need a private e-mail account for anyway? Only to talk to you guys once in awhile and to my sister - so, here I am, back with Odile - but I WILL get myself untangled soon and then look out world -

hey just trying to cheer myself up - Spacecase - I KNOW how you feel - my H is in France right now - for 1 week without me, and next week with me and kids joining him. OW lives in France - H has cellphone with him - can use it in France if he buys the right service - it is not inconceivable that she could travel down to meet him for a day - BF works all day, he would be none the wiser. H is with MY sister and BIL, so I doubt he would be so bold as to let them see him doing this, but he has some free time to himself, so hey, my tiny mind can come up with all kinds of possibilities - esp since it has been 6 weeks since he has seen her and is probably reaching critical mass with the withdrawal - well, you know what I tell myself? It's beyond my control. He's his own man - used to be mine, but...really he has to make his own decisions.

I am actually HAPPIER when he is gone now - the tension in me relaxes considerably. I am learning to recognize that there is not much difference in our R whether he is here or not because when he is here with me, he really doesn't RELATE to me on much of an intimate level at all. There isn't much interaction - he carries on with his work - he works a lot from home - when he eats a meal with me, he doesn't talk much - he doesn't look at me, and is not interested in my topics of conversation. Sometimes he flirts with me - I guess he expects me to be spontaneously happy that he's still around. He graces me with his presence, basically. He complains about everything and everyone by way of conversation - I listen. We kiss each other hello and goodbye. Sometimes we have sex.
That's about it for now. So until the light bulbs start to go on in his head - I am happier when he is gone - better able to get on with doing the things I need to do for me. It's sad. But that's the way it is. I guess I am reaching some stage of acceptance. I don't like it but I have to face reality. I am still watching for change and hoping for it, though. SH says divorce happens because of hopelessness, so I guess we still have a chance.

Let us know when she heads for FL - you never know, she could be going to tell him it's over. I know that's a pipe dream, but it's still a remote possibility.

Any ideas on how to name change? It's late here, though - gotta go to bed!

Odile

Well I probably blew it, but It just happened. I went to my W and told her how I felt about her going to FL, and why, and told her that there were too many coincidences about her last trip for me to believe that she did not go see the OM, and it started to get heated so I just told her I'd rather not talk while I'm angry and went out for a drive.

Big LB, I'm sure. But apart from the A aspect of the trip, it's just plain irresponsible because of the money. I've been unemployed for 11 months, and in all that time she's contibuted about $1,000 to the maintenance of our home...I pay every bill, mortgage, car payments, everything...

Just so sad...no connection, no solidarity, she has the need to go to FL again, see her friends, but make sure the mortgage is paid on time! Who cares that your dad is coming for his once-a-year visit on the 20th, I'll be back on the 22nd...that's the way the flight worked out, and besides I though he was coming on the 22nd.

Is all of this really worth it? When they are so far gone, so focused on their needs and desires, do they EVER come back, do they ever have a chance to care for someone else, to give, to share? I really wonder....

Plan B sure is looking good right now. I need to get away from this craziness; from this ego-centric, selfish, everyone-be-damned mentality. I swear, if my dad weren't coming into town, I'd probably be packing right about now!

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Space,

They do come back - and if your wife chooses to do so it will be on HER timeline.

Remember, my H was appeasing me by counseling with Steve, all while he was off dating a Vera, a Michelle, a Stacey, and good lord knows how many other women (but no contact with OW!).

Steve said he didn't "get it" and he truely didn't, not then.

But when he decided he really DID want to fix it, he had all those good Steve thoughts stored away in his brain. And as much as he disparages Steve even now, he acknowledges his fault and takes responsiblity for rebuilding my trust.

He went from "I have gotten used to being single and I need my space" to "You have the right to check, snoop, listen in on, any thing I am doing. Here's my pin numbers, my passwords and access to my email, my checking account and all my financial paperwork."

Space - I think the FL trip MUST be brought up with Steve ASAP. No if ands or buts.

You need to do whatever Steve says, but my thought would be immediate Plan B if she goes to FL.

SC,

Talk to Steve again, bring up the FL trip & let him know how far down on that rope you are hanging.

Hi SC,
I am also unsure as to whether my WH (WW in your case) is still seeing the OW, but in my mind it's a moot point now. WH and I went to counseling when I first found out about OW in Feb. 2002, but never really got it. Never would be accountable to me, and still demanded his privacy. We went back and forth between my snooping, and discovery several different times. In May he left to get his head together, came home in early July for a couple of weeks. Left again for 2 days while he was still "home", never called me to let me know where he was or anything. That was the last straw for me, I could not put up with the back and forth thing (we have 3 kids) and it was driving me nuts. Even though I suspect he is still seeing OW, I have no proof, and no way to get any. I was going to do the P.I., thing, but decided it didn't really matter. I'm ready to start the Plan B anyway. Please read my Plan B letter, final draft on Gen. Questions 2, or on Plan A/B forum. Tell me what you think.
I'm definitely feeling ready to do this.
God bless you in your decision.
KK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Space,

They do come back - and if your wife chooses to do so it will be on HER timeline.

Remember, my H was appeasing me by counseling with Steve, all while he was off dating a Vera, a Michelle, a Stacey, and good lord knows how many other women (but no contact with OW!).

Steve said he didn't "get it" and he truely didn't, not then.

But when he decided he really DID want to fix it, he had all those good Steve thoughts stored away in his brain. And as much as he disparages Steve even now, he acknowledges his fault and takes responsiblity for rebuilding my trust. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When did he "decide"? What was happening?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He went from "I have gotten used to being single and I need my space" to "You have the right to check, snoop, listen in on, any thing I am doing. Here's my pin numbers, my passwords and access to my email, my checking account and all my financial paperwork."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amazing! I cannot even imagine my W ever saying these things...but she's surprised me before!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Space - I think the FL trip MUST be brought up with Steve ASAP. No if ands or buts.

You need to do whatever Steve says, but my thought would be immediate Plan B if she goes to FL. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. Not sure Steve does, but we didn't really discuss the upcoming trip. I will bring it up, and I'm also inclined to Plan B if she goes. But....Steve has his ways, and he wants us at the MB weekend, so I don't know if he'll agree.

Thanks BR!

Update with my W
After our conversation yesterday, and after I came back from my drive, she comes up to me, holds my hand and asks if I'm OK. I said yes; I'm feeling pretty hopeless and tired, and I feel like I'm the one doing all the work, and I'm not getting the support I need, bla, bla, bla. I kinda vented for a few minutes, not loudly or aggressively, very calm , probably just dejected. After a few minutes she said I think you're being too harsh, why don't we talk later?

I have to say that both with the earlier conversation and with this one, she reacted quite well. None of the accusing self-righteous stuff she's done so much in the past, none of the conversation-stoppers either. Certainly some progress there. Same for me, I guess. I knew when yto walk away from what could become a fight, and I kept my composure even though I was angry.

In effect, we did talk again later, and had a pretty good talk. She started with a long talk about how I only saw the bad things, and didn't see the good things. I admitter that that was probably the case, that the pressure of the bad things probably hid the good things and made me feel like they were not there. That I'd try to see them more.
I then went into a talk about trust. I explained to her that what was frustrating about this was that after she'd said "I know I've hurt you, and I'm sorry", I had not really felt that she'd neither started to listen to the things that made me hurt, (like my triggers talk of a few days back), nor had she really made any changes in her actions that led me to believe that this was sincere. I gave her several examples; not discussing her trip to FL with me, not telling me about the rental car, not changing her phone habits, not asking me about this upcoming trip, not taking into account my dad's travel dates when she made the reservations, etc. I said look, all of these things just indicate that although you said the words, you are not following up with the actions behind them. It is through the actions that trust is established, through seeing an effort at trying to understand and avoid those things that hurt me that I can begin to feel like you're really trying.

She seemed to get it pretty well. She nodded a lot, and was very understanding. We'll see.

We also talked about the trip to FL. I said that clearly, at this stage, I do not trust her not to be going to see the OM. I told her I would not try to stop her, that her actions were her responsibility and I would not attempt to change that. I said it was up to her to weigh the potential hurt the trip would cause me against her desire to go, and make her decision. I said that I would feel better about these trips once I'd seen some concrete actions on the trust front, and that maybe she should think of things to do or say that would reduce that feeling of hurt and distrust, that maybe there were things she could do to make sure I felt better about the trip. That I'd leave it up to her. I pointed out the financial aspect of it as well, indicating that although I understand her need to do something for herself, given our financial situation it might be good to thing about more responsible uses for the money the trip is costing. I also said that maybe after our "questions" session with Steve, I may feel better about all this.

All in all a good conversation, I think we're definitely making progress on the communication side, even if we're not making as much progress in other areas. I think now it will be much more difficult for her to explain away any inconsistencies in what she tells me, after her talk with Steve about it, and after the rental car conversation, and this one about actions. She seemed to get it and seemed quite sincere in her desire to change and to try to make it better. When it ended we hugged, kissed, wished for a solution to all of this, and I felt quite a bit better. I'm afraid that when these types of encounters happen, I tend to want to believe so much that I do believe, and then it comes back to bite me. But she seems so sincere...it's weird how she can suddely change again and seem so calloused and cold. What a rollercoaster!

In any case, we'll see what happens with the questions session with Steve, I'm going to run the FL trip thing by him as well. Any ideas about things she could do while in FL to help me feel that she's not seeing him, that she is, in fact, with our friends? I'm afraid to approach our friends because I don't want them to feel like they have to take sides, and I'm not sure what my W has told them when she goes off to see the OM, (if she has), I just don't want to put them in the middle and I don't want to embarass my W in front of them either.