hcii:

"I'm rich in experience, but probably poor on advice...."

Sadly, we ALL ARE. Even when I think I've "learned" what to say and do, I still screw up very badly. And so we grow... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

".... I told you "flat turd"."

No, flat turds imply no topography whatsoever. Although, I am picturing an extrusion of Dairy Queen chocolate ice cream here, or maybe some "Brown 29" from "The Groove Tube" or something, with that cute little curl on top. Not much internal strength or surface tension... just like bad Cs!

Actually, I talked a little to my W about my concerns over our MC "jumping all over me" about the truck driver incident. My W didn't even realize that I felt that way. So, if we ever do see her again (and I don't want to), I'll have to bring that up and clear it out.

YES ... plausible and possible ... both!

Money ... how to get it, what to use it for ... a neverending source for marrital "bliss" ... yeah ... sure ...<putting on sarcastic face>

I don't know about you Spacy ... but, one of MY character faults in our marriage is that I behaved in a way that indicated I was pretty darn sure MY opinion was better than H's most of the time. <sarcastic face now replaced by regretful look>

It is so easy to develop separate lives within any marriage I think.

One of our friends is a producer who, for 18 years, was married to a very famous actress, well known for her beauty and her incredible body. He told me once how he used to frequently cheat on her ... a sex symbol goddess! Someone millions of men would fantazise about having sex with! He said that it didn't matter that she was so beautiful, because she had seen him at his worst, and he wanted to be impressive in a woman's eyes ... and he had stopped being impressive to her during their marriage.

Listening to our friend's story helped me realize some things about where we had gone wrong in our marriage. We had stopped the flow of that sexy energy ... we were no longer impressed with each other. We were seeing each other like comfortable furniture .... something that is there, but we don't really think about or appreciate consciously.

Plausible? Possible?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>YES ... plausible and possible ... both!

Money ... how to get it, what to use it for ... a neverending source for marrital "bliss" ... yeah ... sure ...<putting on sarcastic face>

I don't know about you Spacy ... but, one of MY character faults in our marriage is that I behaved in a way that indicated I was pretty darn sure MY opinion was better than H's most of the time. <sarcastic face now replaced by regretful look></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same here. I could NEVER understand how she was not able to save a penny...why she never got on board about that. College, retirement, you know...the concept of saving for bigger, better things, for an emergency. NEVER 1 cent!

So of course, I KNEW I was right about that, and a great many other things...and she never fought for her POV, never negotiated, so I just did what I thought was right. Little did I know this would somehow become the modus operandi in everything about our lives, until the R was nothing more than roommates and child-rearing partners.
I too, am ashamed of that, of thinking that my way was always better, and even worse, for not PUSHING her to state and defend her opinion and to find a compromise; I have always felt I can compromise, and do it very well, in fact. It's my job!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It is so easy to develop separate lives within any marriage I think.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed...suddenly, years have gone by (one knows not where) and you don't know that person sleeping next to you...sad, very sad. I should have known better.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listening to our friend's story helped me realize some things about where we had gone wrong in our marriage. We had stopped the flow of that sexy energy ... we were no longer impressed with each other. We were seeing each other like comfortable furniture .... something that is there, but we don't really think about or appreciate consciously.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true, and very well put; <strong>sexy energy and impressed with each other.</strong> We need to maintain the sexy energy, and find ways to remain impressed with each other!

good insight, Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ July 13, 2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

This post was originally made on my good friend 2L's thread, but I thought I'd transcribe it here since it's really about me...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>2L, my friend, I have come to a very important conclusion today. After much pondering, reading and re-reading posts, looking at what hurts and events of the last few days.

We need to cut them loose. Let them go. I remembered the anguish I felt when my WW was going to leave for FL the last time, and then I came to the right conclusion; I have to let her go, not worry about her, and not worry about what she's doing. And I did. Didn't even call her.
But then, after she came back, and I started finding all this info about the trip, and the OM, and all that crap, all I did was fall back into the behavior and feelings I had dropped when she went on her trip. And you've seen my posts of the last few days; anguish again over THIS trip!

So; I will let her go. I will let her do her thing, and I will not be bothered or hurt by what she does or does not do. I will do my best to maintain this very attitude and position ALL the time. When I falter, I will sing that song "set them free", I will repeat my new mantra: LET HER GO, LET HER GO, LET HER GO, LET HER GO....

I will continue to Plan A when I'm with her, and I will continue to chant the mantra when I'm not. And soon enough, as things develop, as things happen, we will see what transpires. Maybe the A will end, maybe she'll have a religious experience at the MB weekend, maybe a car will run me over next week...but I will still be chanting my mantra...LET HER GO...and if by G--s grace something happens, and she decides I am a nice enough caveman she'd like to come back to, I'll be here, whether by then I'm still here or in the extended stay Plan Bing...chanting LET HER GO, LET HER GO, LET HER GO....</strong>

As for you, my friend, please talk to your Dr. about some meds; all that non-stop crying is not good. I am hoping they will also help me, although I'd managed to pretty much stop the crying by then.

And now I'm off to copy this post into my thread...since it is, after all, a part of my story...which I hope will somehow inspire you in some way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wanted to add just one thing. Apart from reading all of the advice from so many old-timers and all other posters about "letting them go", "setting them free", there WAS one very clear and revealing event in my experience that was the clincher for me.

When my W told me that if what she was doing was not enough, we should separate, and I said fine, If you feel there is nothing more we can do for our M and that's how you feel, then we should separate.

NEVER during the course of these close to 11 months since D-Day has she been as nice, as close, as sweet, as after that conversation. She has initiated SF, which is VERY rare for her, she has gone looking for my hand to hold, my arm to touch, my back to hug. She has not pulled away from my kisses or hugs, she has kissed me like she hadn;t done in years.

And you know what? it hit me; this is the first time I have calmly, collected, and sure of myself and my convictions, told her that if this is what she wants our M to be, then I'm ready to walk.

And look at the change in her! Sure, there's the element of the FL trip and her wanting to go; but you know what? she was going anyway! It's not like she was waiting for me to OK the trip, or bless it...she was going the same way she went before; whether I liked it or not. So sure, there may be some elements in her behavior related to that, but I think it is MUCH MORE related to this being the first time she has actually FELT she just might be close to losing me.

We shall see; but I'll tell you what: I'm going to let her go, let her go, let her go...I'm going to try VERY, VERY hard to let her go...

<small>[ July 13, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Is this like the MB Hall of Fame? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by OneGoing:
<strong>Spacecase:

Excellent work!
It has been added to Notable Posts/Threads (under Recovery).

Sample NO CONTACT Letters

If you know of any more notable threads like this, or feel you drafted a few, let me know and I'll add them.

OneGoing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Space ~

I think that you do your damndest to follow Steve's advice, no matter how hard it is.

If he says hang in there, then hang on with all your might.

I think Pepper's thoughts about secrecy and safety were extremely interesting. IF this is where your wife is coming from, then you now have some information to work with. She's going to have to learn that its safe let you in on her secrets. If this is the case, then your snooping could be a bigger risk than I originally thought.

Part of letting her go will mean stop snooping, checking and prying. If indeed for her secrecy means safety, then you are assaulting her on a very visceral level that will drive her away.

I know how tough this is. Have you got the "Language of Letting Go" book yet? It's a good one for quick reads when you need a boost to hang in there.

Steve spent hours on the phone with me the night that he told me that I had to get a divorce. I'll never forget his wisdom that night. I have yet to see him ever be wrong - although I am sure its possible.

Steve is a man who spends his entire work day 5 days a week, fixing marriages. He is an expert like no other. Hang in there.

Your wife may be appeasing you right now, but it doesn't mean that good isn't happening. It took 6 months before I saw good come out of my husband from Steve's talks with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Space ~

I think that you do your damndest to follow Steve's advice, no matter how hard it is.

If he says hang in there, then hang on with all your might.

I think Pepper's thoughts about secrecy and safety were extremely interesting. IF this is where your wife is coming from, then you now have some information to work with. She's going to have to learn that its safe let you in on her secrets. If this is the case, then your snooping could be a bigger risk than I originally thought.

Part of letting her go will mean stop snooping, checking and prying. If indeed for her secrecy means safety, then you are assaulting her on a very visceral level that will drive her away.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. And this is exactly what I intend to do. Don't forget, however, tham my W's OM is a convicted federal inmate, and as such could pose a danger to me and my family. Although I believe this to be a remote possibility, it does bear watching from time to time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know how tough this is. Have you got the "Language of Letting Go" book yet? It's a good one for quick reads when you need a boost to hang in there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did get it, and I am reading it...I keep it on my desk.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Steve is a man who spends his entire work day 5 days a week, fixing marriages. He is an expert like no other. Hang in there.

Your wife may be appeasing you right now, but it doesn't mean that good isn't happening. It took 6 months before I saw good come out of my husband from Steve's talks with him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I believe in him as well, and I believe he is finding a way to influence my W in the right direction. I will try to hang on as long as possible and give him that opportunity.

Thanks BR!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pepper:

"One of our early marriage disasters... (we're married 21 years last May)... H went and bought a new car without discussing it with me. (We called it our "divorce car" until we finally sold it). H would make unilateral decisions that affected both of us. H lived like a single man in some ways. He is an only child, and I also think this has something to do with making unilateral decisions as an adult. We now do POJA ... and we are the better for it!"

Just to show you guys that I'm not perfect (I know, you've all been thinking I AM, right!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), let it be known that *I*, the great and powerful 2long, did this very thing, right before my W's A started with OM! To top it off, I'd been looking at one of these cars to replace my 1967 VW bus with 375,000 miles on it, for about a year, after we'd bought my W a new Spute. My W actually said, at one point, "If you buy that car, we should get a DV." I bought the car anyway. Why? 1) Impulse I guess was the major reason, you could talk me into just about anything PARTICULARLY because I wouldn't have believed you could talk me into anything. 2) my VW was tired, and I was tired of commuting in it 1hr each way every day, then spending so much time working on it to keep it going. 3) Sheer stupidity. I must have thought that doing something like that to get my W's attention (she had been pretty withdrawn after a nasty argument during the Gulf War, and I bought the car about a year and a half later). I sure didn't think like I do now.

I haven't done anything quite that bad since then. I only kept the car for 6 months, and thankfully sold it at a profit after putting about 12,000 miles on it. Ironically, one of my W's most memorable SF moments was IN THAT CAR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This January, weekend after finding the first emails and weekend BEFORE learning the truth about the A, she encouraged me to buy a new car to replace the tired one I'm driving. I didn't feel right about it, and I'm glad I resisted (though it was close). Since then, she's suggested it again once, plus has talked about buying 4 separate houses (not at the same time, though). She's still interested in the 4th one as a rental for her sister and mother, but I've made it clear that I won't sign any papers until we're in recovery. I hope I can stay strong.

Bramblerose:

"Steve spent hours on the phone with me the night that he told me that I had to get a divorce. I'll never forget his wisdom that night. I have yet to see him ever be wrong - although I am sure its possible.
Steve is a man who spends his entire work day 5 days a week, fixing marriages. He is an expert like no other. Hang in there."

You can bet *I* am listening to this, too!

SC:

"When my W told me that if what she was doing was not enough, we should separate, and I said fine, If you feel there is nothing more we can do for our M and that's how you feel, then we should separate.
NEVER during the course of these close to 11 months since D-Day has she been as nice, as close, as sweet, as after that conversation. She has initiated SF, which is VERY rare for her, she has gone looking for my hand to hold, my arm to touch, my back to hug. She has not pulled away from my kisses or hugs, she has kissed me like she hadn;t done in years.
And you know what? it hit me; this is the first time I have calmly, collected, and sure of myself and my convictions, told her that if this is what she wants our M to be, then I'm ready to walk.
And look at the change in her! Sure, there's the element of the FL trip and her wanting to go; but you know what? she was going anyway! It's not like she was waiting for me to OK the trip, or bless it...she was going the same way she went before; whether I liked it or not. So sure, there may be some elements in her behavior related to that, but I think it is MUCH MORE related to this being the first time she has actually FELT she just might be close to losing me."

This is exactly what happens. But it will happen more than once, which is why, I think, most BSs have to go to plan B in order to move beyond the fence sitting stalemate.

I just hope that I'm one of the 1/3 from you poll, SC, that doesn't need to use plan B to get into recovery. I tried something new yesterday, which I think made the weekend very good. I told her ILY at least 3 times, and did things with her and without her when I felt the need to do them. I even worked on getting my PC working, realizing it was the first time I'd even turned the damn thing on since D-day. She saw me doing something for me, while I was working on it. The ILY's were no big deal for me to say, either. I was being very sincere, but I wasn't expecting anything at all from her in return.

But just remember SC, that these things will come as she's realizing you have choices and you're less afraid to make them than before. But, as you settle back into day-to-day routines, she'll get comfy again with the knowledge that you aren't QUITE ready to leave. I see this in my W's behavior each time now.

Good insight, 2L. I too, hope against hope that I won't have to go to Plan B, and that I will also be one of the "lucky 1/3" who can begin Recovery w/o it.

But You know how tough it's been. As of now she doesn't even acknowledge there's an on-going A, although I DEFINITIVELY CONFIRMED that today.

I can't publicly post HOW, but it is absolute, irrefutable, and unquestionable. Question is, NOW what?

I've put a call in to Steve to run it by him, and we'll have to see what he says.

SC,
Sorry you've found more proof. It hurts, but it also confirms you are not crazy so thats gotta feel good! I'm glad too because this will be a turning point for her and you. Keep us posted on what Steve says and what happens next.

SC:

I'm also sorry you found more proof. But she's right, it is a bit comforting to verify that you're still firing on all 8 cylinders.

I suspect my W is having more contact with her OM than she's telling me about, but at this point it doesn't matter whether it's true or I'm just suspicious. What matters is I can't trust her until she reveals what's said, and ENDS the contact forever.

I would hate to go to plan B, assuming that contact is continuing, and find that it's not been. On the other hand, the anti-M statements and the privacy STILL continue, and I won't live like that anymore ever again, and so if I have to go to plan B or DV for THOSE reasons, I feel I'd be justified.

I'm kind of in shock. I heard stuff I DID NOT wnat to hear, but at the same time I'm happy and relieved that I now at least have something concrete we can place at her feet, and she will have to either decide what she wants to do, or face some very clear action on my part.

Hopefully there will not be much of a chance to waffle out of it, or anything like that. Either she chooses to stay in the M in a REAL way, and under Steve's guidelines, or I can with a clear conscience that I did absolutely all I could do, either go to Plan B or, in case it's very extreme, Plan D.

Space,

I'm back after a weekend of camping with CubScouts! I've just caught up on your post and wanted to respond to a question you asked me a few days ago.

Space said:
Since you mention this, CSue, maybe you can help me here; my W states that for a very long time she has been unsatisfied with our SF, and that perhaps that is why she doesn't do it as often as she knows I'd like.

Me -
Space, can she tell you what about SF she is unsatisfied with?

Space -

However, she is UNABLE to tell me what she likes, how she likes it, and when I try to experiement, she is VERY reluctant. In addition, although I've talked about it, bought her books, etc. and we've been discussing this for over 6 months, it seems odd to me that she has NOT been able to come up with anything that she likes in all this time. Any ideas?

Space, I have some global thoughts on this; however in light of reading todays posts from you with your new proof; you're probably not on this page anymore. I'm glad you have SH to help you with this news. Are you and W going to the MB weekend that SH wants you to attend? Keep us posted! CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>

Just to show you guys that I'm not perfect (I know, you've all been thinking I AM, right!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), let it be known that *I*, the great and powerful 2long, did this very thing, right before my W's A started with OM! To top it off, I'd been looking at one of these cars to replace my 1967 VW bus with 375,000 miles on it, for about a year, after we'd bought my W a new Spute. My W actually said, at one point, "If you buy that car, we should get a DV." I bought the car anyway. Why? 1) Impulse I guess was the major reason, you could talk me into just about anything PARTICULARLY because I wouldn't have believed you could talk me into anything. 2) my VW was tired, and I was tired of commuting in it 1hr each way every day, then spending so much time working on it to keep it going. 3) Sheer stupidity. I must have thought that doing something like that to get my W's attention (she had been pretty withdrawn after a nasty argument during the Gulf War, and I bought the car about a year and a half later). I sure didn't think like I do now..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long,
Now that the bubble has burst and your fellow MBers now know that you are not perfect...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
I haven't done anything quite that bad since then. I only kept the car for 6 months, and thankfully sold it at a profit after putting about 12,000 miles on it. Ironically, one of my W's most memorable SF moments was IN THAT CAR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like it was a fantastic purchase!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
This January, weekend after finding the first emails and weekend BEFORE learning the truth about the A, she encouraged me to buy a new car to replace the tired one I'm driving. I didn't feel right about it, and I'm glad I resisted (though it was close). Since then, she's suggested it again once, plus has talked about buying 4 separate houses (not at the same time, though). She's still interested in the 4th one as a rental for her sister and mother, but I've made it clear that I won't sign any papers until we're in recovery. I hope I can stay strong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long, What do you think her message is in all of these purchases? Is it about guilt? CSue

CSue;

Thanks, and I'd STILL like to hear what you have to say about the SF. Your theory.

Here's the deal; For now, I'm staying totally put in terms of talking with my W regarding the proof, until I can talk to Steve. Now Steve is out all week at a conference, returning on the 22nd, so I don't imagine I'll have a chance to speak with him before then, unless he gets my message and is able to call. We have a joint call sceduled for the 23rd, so maybe that'll be the first time I can speak with Steve.

We ARE already scheduled, booked, and with all reservations confirmed for the MB Weekend in Menneapolis, so unless something very drastic happens, we're going. I suspect Steve will want me to hold off on any confrontation until after that, but that's just specualation on my part. I cannot see going to the MB seminar if she's not committed to our M; what a waste of time and money to do that just to "play along", so I hope we will confront before this.

To top it all off, my Dad is going to be visiting for a few days, so I'll have to play nice at least until they leave. I certainly do not want any kind of confrontation while they are here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>CSue;

Thanks, and I'd STILL like to hear what you have to say about the SF. Your theory.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I would be happy to. I'll go into WORD so I can think and type at the same time; then I'll copy it here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Here's the deal; For now, I'm staying totally put in terms of talking with my W regarding the proof, until I can talk to Steve. Now Steve is out all week at a conference, returning on the 22nd, so I don't imagine I'll have a chance to speak with him before then, unless he gets my message and is able to call. We have a joint call sceduled for the 23rd, so maybe that'll be the first time I can speak with Steve.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes; that's some time to wait; but I know you are making the right decision. Just watch out for your "Taker". This is alot of pressure for you to handle for this many days. Vent here!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>We ARE already scheduled, booked, and with all reservations confirmed for the MB Weekend in Menneapolis, so unless something very drastic happens, we're going. I suspect Steve will want me to hold off on any confrontation until after that, but that's just specualation on my part. I cannot see going to the MB seminar if she's not committed to our M; what a waste of time and money to do that just to "play along", so I hope we will confront before this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My opinion is that this is perfect place for the MB weekend however it's a long way off to keep this to yourself until then. Safest place for it all to come out with having the MB staff for support. I am so glad you are going. This will acclerate resolution I suspect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>To top it all off, my Dad is going to be visiting for a few days, so I'll have to play nice at least until they leave. I certainly do not want any kind of confrontation while they are here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe having your dad there will help take your mind off all of this and give you a bit of a break. Ok off to word processing to answer your question! CSue

Yes, it is a long time to wait, but I'll tell you, I feel A LOT better now that I know, than I did while still wondering. Very painful to hear all the I love you's and miss you's, but better to know the truth. I can handle this better than if the doubts continued. I spoke with my older son about it, cried some, but I know it's better to know. It's so sad, though...such a wonderful woman, and somehow she's lost in this place where I can barely reach her...

And although you may be right about disclosing this at the MB weekend with MB support nearby, I'd prefer not to wait that long, and to do it with Steve on the phone before that. Then, if she decides to end this farce and commits to rebuilding, we can go to the MB weekend and have a clean start there.