SC,
I hear you, you have tried to reach Steve. I guess my point is DO SOMETHING. Do it wrong if you have to BUT try your best and DO SOMETHING!

If your wife is leaving Wednesday morning and you don't hear from Steve by Tuesday night THEN have a plan of what to say.

I know you are hurting right now and maybe you should wait 24 hours before saying anything to her. BUT, according to your post, you KNOW FACTS that she is still in contact AND you KNOW FACTS she intends on seeing him while she is gone. What did Steve say your course of action is ONCE you have proof. I know he knew you were waiting for proof. IMHO, tell her you love her and you want the marriage BUT that you KNOW she is in contact (your not asking so don't get in a big debate cause she'll probably deny it!) AND that you know she intends on going to see him. IF she wants the marriage ask her to NOT GO! IF she does NOT want the marriage tell her to GO and you will be gone when she gets back (leave her a Plan B letter for her when she gets home). This is ALL my opinion for whatever it is worth BUT I would lean towards saying SOMETHING then to just let her go off on her mary way with no guilt to see OM. What exactly are you waiting for? What more do you need to confront her? I would be kinda mad if I was under a healthcare providers care and had NO WAY to get help. Yep, I would be mad at Steve. Talk to Jen, anyone... get help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"not Valentino or whatever you call Mr. Stud these days"

ol' 2LONG!!!

Sorry.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, Ok, I give up! "Sweetheart, I know I'm no 2Long, but......" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Somehow I don't think that line would go over too well! Especially as a pick-up line! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

I think I was going to suggest something like ILuv has posted, but she's got the right idea down.

I think that my own plan if my W had seen OMW's H in August would have been to see just what it consisted of, and if it was "A-related" I'd leave at that point.

You've been planning on doing something like this for a while now. You've got all the ducks on axis within a millionth of an inch, and so there's not much else to do now. This kind of evidence won't pack the same punch if you reveal it to her at some later date, when she's come back from FL. Like, what would you do if she said "I just went there to say goodbye." Your last card would have been played and you'd have no counter-argument. Let her make that excuse BEFORE she goes, with full knowledge of what the consequences are.

I honestly still don't know what SH would say about this development, so PLEASE DO call SOMEONE at MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>SC,
I hear you, you have tried to reach Steve. I guess my point is DO SOMETHING. Do it wrong if you have to BUT try your best and DO SOMETHING!

If your wife is leaving Wednesday morning and you don't hear from Steve by Tuesday night THEN have a plan of what to say.

I know you are hurting right now and maybe you should wait 24 hours before saying anything to her. BUT, according to your post, you KNOW FACTS that she is still in contact AND you KNOW FACTS she intends on seeing him while she is gone. What did Steve say your course of action is ONCE you have proof. I know he knew you were waiting for proof. IMHO, tell her you love her and you want the marriage BUT that you KNOW she is in contact (your not asking so don't get in a big debate cause she'll probably deny it!) AND that you know she intends on going to see him. IF she wants the marriage ask her to NOT GO! IF she does NOT want the marriage tell her to GO and you will be gone when she gets back (leave her a Plan B letter for her when she gets home). This is ALL my opinion for whatever it is worth BUT I would lean towards saying SOMETHING then to just let her go off on her mary way with no guilt to see OM. What exactly are you waiting for? What more do you need to confront her? I would be kinda mad if I was under a healthcare providers care and had NO WAY to get help. Yep, I would be mad at Steve. Talk to Jen, anyone... get help!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, OK; let's rationalize this and not rush to action.

1st of all, I DO NOT know how Steve planned to address this "confrontation" when the "proof" appeared. We did not go into that.

What I DO know is this; Steve specifically told me NOT to say anything bad or upsetting to my W. That ANYTHING I needed to say to her that was potentially an LB, I should let HIM do it.

2nd; I sincerely doubt that she would stop her trip if she knew we know about this. She sure didn't care much when Steve confronted her with the info on the last trip, which was pretty suspicious.

3rd; I want to give Steve a chance to contact me tonight or tomorrow, if he hears my message. If not, I will make another attempt by calling MB, explaining the situation, and see what they can do.

4th; I will not stop her or try to stop her. She has to do what she has to do. She ALREADY knows the consequences of continued lying, and for that to have the weight it has, it makes NO difference whether it is before or after the fact. From that standpoint, what difference does it make if she goes or doesn't go? She's already lied, we already know it, what's the difference? None.

Geez! This HAD to happen when Steve's not around! what a pain! I wish Orchid, Pep or WAT, or any toher oldtimers would jump in here....I have no idea what to do....what's right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"not Valentino or whatever you call Mr. Stud these days"

ol' 2LONG!!!

Sorry.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, Ok, I give up! "Sweetheart, I know I'm no 2Long, but......" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Somehow I don't think that line would go over too well! Especially as a pick-up line! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Space, you still have your sense of humor...I have been wondering what "2long" really meant.

Maybe 2long can e-mail JL for you...just a thought!! CSue

sc,

Dont know what to say but OMG! I am not in any recovery from my own H's behaviors yet, so anything I say will be full of the same PANIC that I am feeling currently. Just know I "get it" with how you must be feeling. I'll step aside and let more rational people than me give you some support.

Your situation will be in my thoughts today.

Replaced

I guess my #1 problem is IF she goes on the trip and then Steve confronts her HOW LONG will it take to FIND OUT IF she is committed to working on the marriage? How long did it take this time? While you sat around waiting and wondering and putting your heart and soul at risk to FIND OUT if her words match her actions.

Also her choosing whether or not to go would be a GREAT way to FIND OUT IF she is committed to working on the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She ALREADY knows the consequences of continued lying </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DOES SHE??!!! I don't think she does. I think in her itty bitty brain she thinks she can continue having wonderful SC in Plan A and OM on the side until death does it part. What were the consequences of the last A or this OM? A #1 got pushed under the rug. A #2 got SC in Plan A. I think she thinks she has it made. I don't think she IS thinking this through. I think when she gets back she'll do something like 2Long said and continue counseling with Steve and continue giving the bare minimum for the marriage while you agonize over it all...in search of more proof...where does it end?

I think allowing her to go on this trip without confronting her is NOT loving her or yourself. You are ALLOWING her to HURT herself, to HURT you, to HURT your marriage, to HURT your children.

I have this favorite thing I always post and I'm not sure if you have seen it but I will include it here:

I found it at this site:
Cloud Townsend

Limiting Evil

One of the other aspects of boundaries that is important is the limiting effect upon evil. Remember, because God does not control people, they are, in a certain way, free to be evil. He does not make them be good. He limits His sovereignty and control in some ways that we do not totally understand. But, even though He allows them to be evil, He limits the effects of their choices. He exercises limits on the effect that their choices will have on Him, His church, the world, etc.

He has also given us this duty, to limit the effect that evil choices that people make can have on life. One of the best examples of that is in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the role of us to take a stand and &#8220;bind&#8221; evil as it presents itself. Read Psalms 101 for a great description of how David thought about the things that must be bound so that the evil of others would not &#8220;cling&#8221; to him.

In addition, He wants us to limit the effect that the evil is having on their life as well. He wants us to restore those who get &#8220;caught up,&#8221; by evil. We are to put boundaries on the cancer that is destroying them and be redemptive in their lives. (Gal. 6:1)

God is about Life. He is about restoring good things. And to do that, evil things must be held in check and transformed. He has given us many tools to perform this function of the salt that seasons the earth:

Truth and Commands
Confrontation
Rebuke
Exhortation
Forgiveness
Group Intervention
Consequences
Discipline
Restoration
Limit Setting
Separation

These are some of the processes that God has told us to do that limit and restore evil. And, they work. The problem is that we do not exercise our control and responsibility to do these things in our significant relationships, the church, and the world at large. As has been the story since the garden of Eden, the mess is largely of our own making. If we would use our self-control to do these things, then we would not have the messes in various aspects of life in which we find ourselves. We have misused our freedom. But, the good news of boundaries is that you can take control back in your own areas of influence, and begin to limit evil and restore life.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SC, I truly respect you and the decisions you make about your life. You have the tools to make the right decision about your life I DON'T. I am just furious at her! And I can't tell by your post if you are furious or if you are minimizing this. You are worth far more than this. I don't like to see you being disrespected. I hope others will jump in too. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life. I respect you no matter what you decide. I hope you don't see my posts as attacking you. I don't have the words or graemlins to express my anger at your wife right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Keep posting SC.

Oh, ILuv; BELIEVE me, I am VERY VERY tempted to do what you say I should. It makes sense, it's almost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see if she can make the right choice and an opportunity to prove it.

I just don't know what to do. If I do confront, and she goes into her past hysterics, avoids the subject and goes anyway, I'd have NO choice but to leave while she's gone. I can do that, I've been preparing for that, but I'm just not sure if it's what Steve would want me to do.

I suspect he's got another way of facing this...I just do not know.

ILuv; you KNOW i respect your opinion and I appreciate your sincerity and knowledge...but this is a decision that could end my M, so I can't take it lightly. Thanks for being here!

Space,

Follow your gut...it may not be ready to tell you yet what to do. You may still be gathering more information; and by that I mean what she says,does,acts in the moments you have together before she leaves.

I can see reasoning for saying nothing; based on your conversation with SH; yet I can see you confronting. Honestyly I don't know what I would do if it were me...I'd like to say I'd stick with the advice from my coach; after all he's the expert. After all it sounds like he was pretty clear to you based on what you said.

I'm thinking at this long term so that when you look back at this moment in time; you're at peace with your decision. CSue

Bringing it back from the "panic" thread...

Update; Steve will NOT be able to speak with me until Monday, so that's out. MB called me back, offered assistance, but I declined as it would have meant at least an hour or two of background before we could make informed decisions, and after all of last night's feedback, I am sure the best thing is to do this right, with Steve, at the right moment. So that's what I'll do.

I did write several "love notes" which I put in these mini-envelopes I found, and they will be strategically placed in my W's stuff when she leaves. By the way, I found a good web site for "love quotes":

The Love Quotes

You know; we really come to believe we can "restore love" to our Ms, we believe in the process, we believe in the logic and sense, and yet we have those "moments" that make us question this: the tone of voice that I heard in my W speaking to the OM, the passion, the feeling; I haven't heard those from her since we were dating! And the words; she asks him to tell her he loves her and misses her...like a child asking for candy.

And yes, I know, there's the fantasy and the un-reality, and the fog, and all that stuff...but still...one wonders if restoring that is possible...

Well, I'm off to the airport to drop my W off. Have been very, very loving, had a great day yesterday and a good morning, slipped several "love notes" in her purse and luggage...will also send her off with my very best wishes for a safe trip...wish me luck!

Good luck Spacey. I haven't gotten a chance to get completely up to date on your situation...but from what I've read I will say this. When it was said and done with OM I needed closure...that may be what wife is doing. However...I didn't feel the need to do it in person, as I knew that would make everything that much harder. For me I could better do it by phone. To fly clear across the country just to do it in person...seems awfully foggy to me. Still thinking she'll do everything her way without feeling any threat of what that could do to the marriage. Like 2longs wife, she believes you'll wait forever and everything is fixable. I think planting the love notes was a GREAT idea. Plenty tricky. Lets hope the guilt gives her an ulcer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>One of the main side effects of eliminating LB is we become sooooooo good at self control that we forget how to be angry and how to confront.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...you lost me here, ILuv...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,
I have been out of the loop & am not caught up yet, but wanted to commnet on this. I can relate here.
I believe ILUVNprotect ME makes a very important point, one that applies to me in spades. If we focus so much on being "MR. NICE GUY," we can run the risk of becoming the provable "Doormat!" or co-dependent, where we loose our own identity & needs -- this I believe, is a bigger potential problem for certain people that have a tendency to go with the flow, so as to not upset the apple cart -- If our S is a person that does not naturally internalize true emphathy for others & is more a taker than a giver, this can spell diaster! Sometimes for our own self preservation, we need to upset the apple cart -- ask for some respect -- the doormat posture is not healthy for us & it is typically not that appealing to our independent thinking S's!
I'll try be back!
Stay Cool, but think about your needs -- you have some rights too!
HH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Good luck Spacey. I haven't gotten a chance to get completely up to date on your situation...but from what I've read I will say this. When it was said and done with OM I needed closure...that may be what wife is doing. However...I didn't feel the need to do it in person, as I knew that would make everything that much harder. For me I could better do it by phone. To fly clear across the country just to do it in person...seems awfully foggy to me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have NO illusions that this is what she's going there for; to end it. She has, up to now, shown only a desire to continue it, by lying to Steve and to me about continued contact (now positively proven), and by hiding her contact even more than before.
She had already convinced me once before, in December, to let her go to "end it". I VERY reluctantly agreed (this was before MB) and she went.
When she came back she was all cheery and happy "proud of myself for having been able to do it", etc. etc. I received her with flowers, cards, extreme happiness....only to find weeks later, that it had NOT ended, and that is continued unabated all along.
This pattern has been repeated 4-5 times already.
This, I assure you, will be the last time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Still thinking she'll do everything her way without feeling any threat of what that could do to the marriage. Like 2longs wife, she believes you'll wait forever and everything is fixable. I think planting the love notes was a GREAT idea. Plenty tricky. Lets hope the guilt gives her an ulcer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I firmly believe she feels this way; that she can continue the A, keep it hidden, that it doesn't affect us, and that I will always be here and will not leave her. Perhaps events will change this, but I have very little faith left in her ability to see the reality. I almost feel like she'll go to her grave still believeing it was all my fault, and that she did the right thing.
I hope I'm wrong.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe ILUVNprotect ME makes a very important point, one that applies to me in spades. If we focus so much on being "MR. NICE GUY," we can run the risk of becoming the provable "Doormat!" or co-dependent, where we loose our own identity & needs -- this I believe, is a bigger potential problem for certain people that have a tendency to go with the flow, so as to not upset the apple cart -- If our S is a person that does not naturally internalize true emphathy for others & is more a taker than a giver, this can spell diaster! Sometimes for our own self preservation, we need to upset the apple cart -- ask for some respect -- the doormat posture is not healthy for us & it is typically not that appealing to our independent thinking S's!
I'll try be back!
Stay Cool, but think about your needs -- you have some rights too!
HH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, HH. But I also believe there's a difference between asserting your rights and forcing your spouse to accept things they do not agree with. So it's a process, a process where I say "OK, she doesn't get this yet, I will be OK with that for x amount of time, and give her a chance to understand/accept this, which I believe to be true." Sure, during that time, I'm compromising my needs/desires, but I'm doing it for the greater, but much more importantly, the lasting good.

It makes no sense to be too quick to go to Plan B at any moment the spouse blows it, because I fear we may doom ourselves to an endless string of Plan Bs, where they become truly a punishment for bad behavior, and not an incentive to internalize and accept new behavior.

I, for one, do not believe I would do 2 Plan Bs. I may have to go to Plan B, probably very soon, but I'll only do it once. If I return, and the same behavior re-starts, I'm in Plan D.

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Update;
She's gone. I think I did pretty well at the airport, let her know her doing this was hard for me, but that I love her and wish her a safe and happy trip. That I hope she finds what she's looking for. (A reference to her saying she needs to be alone and think). And I placed several "love notes" in her luggage and purse, and left her a mushy "see you soon" voice mail.

I'm not all too happy, but I know it was the right thing to do; to let her go. I cannot end that relationship; only she can, and if it turns out that's what she's gone there to do (as suggested), great. I doubt it, but it'd be great.

If not, then I still have a "final confrontation" which I will orchestrate with Steve, which might do it.

I'm not sure where in the sequence the MB Weekend would fit. I feel I would NOT want to go until after a confrontation and her acceptance of re-building under MB principles. Other may feel differently. Opinions?

And then, there's Plan B. It's always an option.

We shall see what fate brings us, what events throw this sequence into chaos, but I feel I have done everything that I can possibly do, Plan Ad as well as can be expected, waited this thing out just about as long as I can bear, followed Steve's guidance almost to the letter, and given our M every possible opportunity (some may feel TOO many), and I have at least a few more "tools" left in the kit;

Knowledge of contact - Confrontation w/Steve
Plan B
MB Weekend

Any thoughts?

SC:

H4F: "Like 2longs wife, she believes you'll wait forever and everything is fixable. I think planting the love notes was a GREAT idea. Plenty tricky. Lets hope the guilt gives her an ulcer "

I took this "love notes" idea and used it. My W brought home this cute little windup toy for me - a spaceman with a camera orbiting a globe. Has this cool windup key and everything. SO: I emailed a note to her, saying how it makes me giggle at work thinking about it. I sent it to her account on our home ISP AND to her hotmail account that she uses for OM correspondence. Wonder if she'll read it before her next correspondence from Rat Meat?

Just ol' 2long's way of innocently invading the DW's "privacy bubble." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think that's a GREAT idea! To email her "love notes" to the account where "OMW's H" (is that right?) emails her. Love it!

Might I also suggest e-cards? I send these to my W all the time, and it's like $10 for a yearly subscription. There are HUNDREDS of cards to choose from. Here's a link to the one I use. There are others.

e-Greetings

{{{{{ SpaceCase }}}}}
I feel your pain!
Sorry, this is a tough, tough deal --

I don't know your W, but I believe she is a sick person -- she may not intend this, but in her present state, she seems to be a taker, a big time taker-- she probablly does not comprehend what she is doing to you! I can see where she is in big time denial -- has lost her sense of values in terms of a healthy, Christian Marital relationship. This is not your fault!

You may be a little like myself - brought up to believe that it is extremely important to be conscious of other peoples needs & to seek ways to help other people feel better about themself & to not be selfish & to not put our needs ahead of others -- much better to be a giver than a taker. I believe these are very admirable traits & ones that in most cases people would prefer a personlike this to: work with, have as friends & S's! This I bleieve mirrors the primary message Jesus Christ delivered. We should feel blessed that these kinds of things come easy for us (assuming you may be like this-)

However, in certan situations the person we are attempting to be in a relationship with may not honor these traits (at least in their present mode) and have intense "taker" motives and they may in fact take advantage of our good nature, to get what they want -- and w/o regards in any way, to our needs or feelings -- this is what I mean when I say your W is a "sick" person -- I am saying she is a sick person, caught up in some self-gratifying trip or mode and without any true sense of what is right from wrong - whatever she feels she wants or needs and deserves is the only overiding factors to determine her actions & she is willing to say or do whatever it takes to get what she wants. Typically this is not the kind of perosn most people would want to entrust their heart & sense of self with. Co-depedent Issues!
Now perhaps I am wrong with all of these assumptions, but I want to challenge you in a loving, brotherly way to encourage you to search deep within yourself for truth about who she is -- (right now at least!).
I am not leading up to suggesting you scrape her & throw away what is dear to you, your current Family structure. What I am suggesting is that you seriously consider a different tatic -- one like IL& protect me is promoting!

No one has a corner on knowledge & we all have the uptmost respect for Steve and his priniciples, but he is only one person & he cannot possible serve everyone with a top priority -- I am sure you have heard of and have respect for James Dobson -- sure he has books, tapes,& seminars to sell -- but who doesn't?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I don't know your limits or when you may snap, so to speak, but I am guessing you may be reaching your limits! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> - your resentment has to reach a point, where eventually you cave to your instincts -- you are only human & no human is without some instincts for self preservation -- You feel certain you have irrefutable evidence of your W's plans with the OM -- Thus, if you really want to go that route-- continue with proof journey, contact a friend you can trust & that would be willing to track her down & with a camera, capture them together -- I don't know ??

Otherwise, I don't think you need anymore proof --Independent of any A, do you feel you have a satisfactory relationship? -- Is she truely willing to take steps to meet your needs? -- to work at making a better marital relationship? A person can only be asked to go so far along this one-way street. Becasue if your're tired of what she is putting you through, IMHO, who needs evidence -- Perhpas you tell her something like, "You are taking a time out! -- She can take her time, stay as long as she wishes, but when she returns she has some choices" -- No threats, it's just that you are making a decision that it is not working out in your terms and you are tired of pointing fingers and making request - "If it's not working, it's not working!" What does it matter who's fault? You could say, "We can end the fault game, right now." -- Then yu follow up with a Plan B kind of approach -- don't need evidence of A -- individual choices --She seems intent on not meeting your needs - her choice -- you have choices as well! Just the facts, as you know them, not a reason to punish her or be harsh - just move on --180 kind of things -- my two cnets worth here -- I don't know the ultimate answers, just wanting to offer alternatives to think about.
If she has a sense you'll put up with virtually anything to keep the mariage, what incentive (in her current mode!)does she have to make any changes? NONE! No one method is full proof, but in many cases, when the S is forced into a decision & is held to some significant consequences, they make the right choice --otherwise, they have no real incentive to make a choice -- you know ... Cake ...

You have some time now-- read Dobson's book, PLEASE!
Pray - you do have a friend in Jesus or the higher power of your choice actually. You need some solitude. You need some reinforcement that you are a good person & don't dserve these treatments! Be good to yourself, you deserve it!
Call MB back -- Why can't they log onto your threads here and call you tomorrow or Friday. If this evidence thing is still so important, they should have some feel for that & suggestions as to whether to try & get evidence with her actual visit. Otherwise, I would think you need to develop some other strategies -- or a big reinforcement of what it is you need to do, right now.
Above all else -- this will end! Not soon enough I know, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but hang in there!
Love your children, they need you desperatly I am sure! With all this drama, they have to be a bit confused! I know they love you dearly & if it is not obvious now, as they mature they will see the truth more clearly -- that you are in fact the stronger one, their guiding light!
Peace be with you, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
HH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I, for one, do not believe I would do 2 Plan Bs. I may have to go to Plan B, probably very soon, but I'll only do it once. If I return, and the same behavior re-starts, I'm in Plan D.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had to laugh when I saw that one! Yep, I've said it too. I also said I would NEVER tolerate an A, yada yada yada. you probably thought the same thing after the last A.

Plan B is not at all scary. It is not a punishment but it is a natural consequence to an irresponsible behavior. Recovery is the toughest choice of all. Plan B is the easiest of all and Plan A is just plain torture if done for too long. But remember their all part of Steve's plan. Not just plan a.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> forcing your spouse accept things they do not agree with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your not forcing them. Your giving them a choice. Me or him. NOT both. Force your spouse to agree with the FACT that A's are wrong????!!! listen to yourself!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, during that time, I'm compromising my needs/desires, but I'm doing it for the greater, but much more importantly, the lasting good.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B IS for the lasting good of the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It makes no sense to be too quick to go to Plan B at any moment the spouse blows it, because I fear we may doom ourselves to an endless string of Plan Bs, where they become truly a punishment for bad behavior, and not an incentive to internalize and accept new behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your right it makes no sense to be too quick at any moment...BUT at the moment there is contact and proof of contact it makes PERFECT sense! Think of your children, do you "punish" them to harm them or do you "punish" them BECAUSE you LOVE THEM! Do your kids naturally change their behavior without ANY discipline?

If you do NOT allow natural consequences for her bad behavior ALL your doing is enabling the A to continue. There is NO incentive to internalize and accept new behavior BECAUSE she has a wonderful fantasy with OM AND a wonderful Plan A H.

Whew! I had to get that out. I look forward to see what Steve does with the Knowledge of contact - Confrontation w/Steve. I think you will get some clarity then. But another thing that concerns me is he thought maybe she did have a REAL privacy issue and maybe it wasn't continued contact. I think you should bring that up with him. You know your W better than him.