I wonder what Steve has to say NOW about her going to FL since there IS continued contact.

Space said:

Since you mention this, CSue, maybe you can help me here; my W states that for a very long time she has been unsatisfied with our SF, and that perhaps that is why she doesn't do it as often as she knows I'd like.

Me -
Space, can she tell you what about SF she is unsatisfied with?

Space -
However, she is UNABLE to tell me what she likes, how she likes it, and when I try to experiment, she is VERY reluctant. In addition, although I've talked about it, bought her books, etc. and we've been discussing this for over 6 months, it seems odd to me that she has NOT been able to come up with anything that she likes in all this time. Any ideas?

Me -
Space, you say that W says that for a very long time she has been unsatisfied with SF.

What I would like for you to do if possible is go back in time in your memory to the place when she was happy with SF and ask yourself the following; Do you think she was happier with HERSELF at the time in regards to how she felt about herself (self perceptions) physically, mentally, her role as a mother, wife, role in her career, her hopes, her dreams.

Compared to how you think her self perceptions were when you noticed or she told you she was dissatisfied with SF.

My thought with the above is that maybe her dissatisfaction with SF has nothing to do with you. It could be all about her and how she feels about herself.

Also think about who YOU were at the time when you can recall her happier with SF. Are there any changes in you that you can perceive?

My theory or at least 1 of them is that dissatisfaction with SF is many times a “head thing”, not a physical “mechanics” thing where if you try this and that, something new, different, experimenting here and there, SF would reach this magical place where both people are completely satisfied.

If the “state of mind” of the individuals is in “Intimacy” defined as Dr. Harley states in the 3 stages of marriage; then I think satisfaction with SF comes naturally and the interest in trying stuff new, different, experimenting is simply “PURE FUN”.

Because what I am getting at here is the question of; “Is the SF a problem or is it a symptom of the state of your relationship”? Reason I ask is because you mentioned the other A that was 14 years ago? And could it be that the lack of satisfactory resolution of that A be the contributor of her dissatisfaction?

Your answer could be “neither or both” to the above question. Also to clarify; is her A with the same person it was with 14 years ago?

Long way to get to the point; but her unhappiness is either a problem all it's own or a symptom of the state of your relationship.

Oh, this is enough for now. Let me know if this is making sense at all to you. CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>I wonder what Steve has to say NOW about her going to FL since there IS continued contact.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VERY good question. But I'm doubtful I'll even be able to reach Steve befroe her trip on Wed, so I guess it's a moot point. I'll just have to let her go and deal with it when she returns.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Yes, it is a long time to wait, but I'll tell you, I feel A LOT better now that I know, than I did while still wondering..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The uncertainty of it all is un-nerving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Very painful to hear all the I love you's and miss you's, but better to know the truth. I can handle this better than if the doubts continued..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In this strange world of A's that we've all come to be aware of; I can see where she can say the ILYs and I miss you; and still still have the on-going A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>I spoke with my older son about it, cried some, but I know it's better to know. It's so sad, though...such a wonderful woman, and somehow she's lost in this place where I can barely reach her...

And although you may be right about disclosing this at the MB weekend with MB support nearby, I'd prefer not to wait that long, and to do it with Steve on the phone before that. Then, if she decides to end this farce and commits to rebuilding, we can go to the MB weekend and have a clean start there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space you seem to be very centered about all of this. It would be a great success story if you went to the weekend and started rebuilding there. I hope SH has a chance to return your call. I know you'll feel better when you get some direction from him. CSue

I think you should be able to reach him and you should do everything in your power to reach him before Wednesday. You are the patient of a counselor...they usually have emergency numbers. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY!!!!!!

I'm telling you SC, don't let her go off to be with OM in FL without her knowing the full consequences of her actions. This is the time to draw the line in the sand!!!!! I don't recommend you do anything without talking to Steve, BUT do whatever you can to get through to him!!! Don't minimize this. This is huge! IMHO, allowing her to go to FL without ANY consequences is enabling (you participating in allowing the A to continue). IF she continues it - that is one thing BUT for you to sit back and do nothing is something totally different!

CSue:

"quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 2long:
This January, weekend after finding the first emails and weekend BEFORE learning the truth about the A, she encouraged me to buy a new car to replace the tired one I'm driving. I didn't feel right about it, and I'm glad I resisted (though it was close). Since then, she's suggested it again once, plus has talked about buying 4 separate houses (not at the same time, though). She's still interested in the 4th one as a rental for her sister and mother, but I've made it clear that I won't sign any papers until we're in recovery. I hope I can stay strong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2long, What do you think her message is in all of these purchases? Is it about guilt? CSue"

Well, you know? I've been thinking a lot about this, and want to discuss it with my IC this afternoon. I think I've been pretty wrapped up in my "revelation" that MY part in our M decline all these years has been due to our miscommunication. And I REALLY identified with that Peter Gabriel song I posted to my thread, and now include a part of in my sig line. THAT's where the hope remains, if there's any hope at all for us, the communication. I think that my W wanting to buy a rental house for her sister and mom is based partly in her feelings of guilt - after all, she told me that she resumed her A, in part, because the stress of having to deal with supporting her MOTHER, who was living in the house with us before the fire, was driving her nuts. She's going to very likely have to take care of her mother for the rest of her life because she's the most "responsible" of her siblings. Actually, her youngest brother is a terrific man, but he's got two small kids and is taking on helping his older brother (a schizophrenic). Her sister is helping out some, and lives nearby, but she's single and too quick to quit good jobs when things get rough, rather than stay and fight.

So, what has this all to do with me, you ask? Well, I ask, too. My W would have to keep working full time if we DV'd, in order to support herself and her mom. Truth is, her mom is important to me, too, and I would be inclined to be helpful when I can, even if we DV. That may consist of maintaining an interest in our house without living in it, provided I can afford to start over in another house with 2 mortgages to pay (or partially pay) for.

I think part of my W's desire to buy another house is to help her mom out of guilt for what she's done and how it affects her mom. I would like to think that part of it is because she feels guilty for what she's done to me, but I can't be that selfish and have to be prepared for plan B or D on the assumption that it's not the case, so as to get my hopes up and to not be disappointed if it's not the case.

For the longest time, I thought these kinds of things were a smokescreen to distract me so she could continue her contact and maybe even resume her A with OMW's H. I no longer think so, or at least I don't worry about that aspect of it anymore. Lately I've been thinking it's a way of getting me committed to our family (like I NEED to be!) and UNABLE to go anywhere else due to financial and family responsibilities.

Whatever the reason, though, I'm not going to bite that worm, as it must have a hook in it somewhere.

SC, sorry to hijack your thread here. I guess I imagine that the kinds of things we've been talking about regarding both our sitches have been mutually beneficial. I've certainly seen parallels with what you've described in my own M, though the details differ. I hope that some of this help you, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space, you say that W says that for a very long time she has been unsatisfied with SF.

What I would like for you to do if possible is go back in time in your memory to the place when she was happy with SF and ask yourself the following; Do you think she was happier with HERSELF at the time in regards to how she felt about herself (self perceptions) physically, mentally, her role as a mother, wife, role in her career, her hopes, her dreams.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not really sure. I would probably have to go back many years, and even then, I'm not sure because she never said she was unhappy with it. I sensed she was, I guess, but never really knew. It's certainly been a very, very long time.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Compared to how you think her self perceptions were when you noticed or she told you she was dissatisfied with SF. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she's been dissatisfied with who she is for quite some time. Not sure why, although I imagine I've played a role in that.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My thought with the above is that maybe her dissatisfaction with SF has nothing to do with you. It could be all about her and how she feels about herself.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this assessment. Granted, I'm not Valentino or whatever you call Mr. Stud these days, and I'm certainly not as "energetic" as I was when I was 20, but I think I can still please a woman. I feel she doesn't let me. I feel she doesn't want to, and it's been so infrequent for so many years, that I find it difficult to even know anymore.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Also think about who YOU were at the time when you can recall her happier with SF. Are there any changes in you that you can perceive?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure there are. We've been thru a lot of stuff, I'm certainly not as self-confident as I once was, and of course with this A thing on my mind now, that makes it even worse.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My theory or at least 1 of them is that dissatisfaction with SF is many times a &#8220;head thing&#8221;, not a physical &#8220;mechanics&#8221; thing where if you try this and that, something new, different, experimenting here and there, SF would reach this magical place where both people are completely satisfied.

If the &#8220;state of mind&#8221; of the individuals is in &#8220;Intimacy&#8221; defined as Dr. Harley states in the 3 stages of marriage; then I think satisfaction with SF comes naturally and the interest in trying stuff new, different, experimenting is simply &#8220;PURE FUN&#8221;.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree it's probably a mental thing, and is probably related to not having a state of intimacy. Now one thing I'll say is this; she NEVER was comfortable with trying new stuff; not even when we were dating or shortly after we married. I thought this might come in time...it never did.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Because what I am getting at here is the question of; &#8220;Is the SF a problem or is it a symptom of the state of your relationship&#8221;? Reason I ask is because you mentioned the other A that was 14 years ago? And could it be that the lack of satisfactory resolution of that A be the contributor of her dissatisfaction? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would agree that most likely it IS related to the state of the R rather than the physical state of either spouse. And there's NO question in my mind that the unsatisfactory resolution of the first A has played a big role in our R since.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Your answer could be &#8220;neither or both&#8221; to the above question. Also to clarify; is her A with the same person it was with 14 years ago?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's probably more related to the state of the R. No, the first A was with another man.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Long way to get to the point; but her unhappiness is either a problem all it's own or a symptom of the state of your relationship.

Oh, this is enough for now. Let me know if this is making sense at all to you. CSue </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, CSue!

One of the main side effects of eliminating LB is we become sooooooo good at self control that we forget how to be angry and how to confront.

SC:

I don't know if this is right, but it seems to me that your W's dissatisfaction with your SF and her inability to TELL you what she's dissatisfied with has NOTHING to do with you, but everything to do with her ongoing A and her rationalization.

I don't remember if you said this, but did she ever have SF with her OM before she met you? Could she be comparing what she imagines SF to be like with OM to what it's like with you, and rationalizing that it will be better with OM when he gets out of prison than it is with you? Weird idea, perhaps, but possible? I don't know.

In my case, we never stopped having SF while my W was having a PA with OMW's H. She's told me several times since D-day that the sex wasn't the problem with us - that it was always very good (ol' 2long pats self on back, again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), whereas it "was never very rewarding" with OMW's H, and so they didn't have it more than a handful of times. I guess my point is that my W could compare, and your W can't, and so maybe she's demeaning SF with you for that reason?

Hope this isn't too whacked and doesn't offend.

Take care,

SC:

"not Valentino or whatever you call Mr. Stud these days"

ol' 2LONG!!!

Sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> CSue: In this strange world of A's that we've all come to be aware of; I can see where she can say the ILYs and I miss you; and still still have the on-going A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ILY's and Miss you's were with the OM, not me...See; you've made me cry again...this has to end soon; one way or another.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>I think you should be able to reach him and you should do everything in your power to reach him before Wednesday. You are the patient of a counselor...they usually have emergency numbers. THIS IS AN EMERGENCY!!!!!!

I'm telling you SC, don't let her go off to be with OM in FL without her knowing the full consequences of her actions. This is the time to draw the line in the sand!!!!! I don't recommend you do anything without talking to Steve, BUT do whatever you can to get through to him!!! Don't minimize this. This is huge! IMHO, allowing her to go to FL without ANY consequences is enabling (you participating in allowing the A to continue). IF she continues it - that is one thing BUT for you to sit back and do nothing is something totally different!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did do everything I could...he's got a message referring ememrgencies to other MB folks, and says he'll be back on the 22nd. I still left him a vmail saying it was an emergency and that if there's ANY way he can get back to me I'd appreciate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I don't know if this is right, but it seems to me that your W's dissatisfaction with your SF and her inability to TELL you what she's dissatisfied with has NOTHING to do with you, but everything to do with her ongoing A and her rationalization.

I don't remember if you said this, but did she ever have SF with her OM before she met you? Could she be comparing what she imagines SF to be like with OM to what it's like with you, and rationalizing that it will be better with OM when he gets out of prison than it is with you? Weird idea, perhaps, but possible? I don't know.

In my case, we never stopped having SF while my W was having a PA with OMW's H. She's told me several times since D-day that the sex wasn't the problem with us - that it was always very good (ol' 2long pats self on back, again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), whereas it "was never very rewarding" with OMW's H, and so they didn't have it more than a handful of times. I guess my point is that my W could compare, and your W can't, and so maybe she's demeaning SF with you for that reason?

Hope this isn't too whacked and doesn't offend.

Take care,</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, Mi Casa Es Su Casa, my thread is your thread...

I think you're right about the SF problems being a result of the A, and before that started, the result of the lack of intimacy. And of course, her rationalizations.

As far as I know, they had SF when they dated when they were teenagers, so I don't imagine she's thinking of SF with him, 25+- years later...but who knows? I've begun to believe that they may have started the A BEFORE he went to prison, so maybe he's a great lover and she DOES have that to compare to....I just don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>One of the main side effects of eliminating LB is we become sooooooo good at self control that we forget how to be angry and how to confront.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...you lost me here, ILuv...

Space,

I am sorry that I confused that. I take it that your new proof includes the part where she told the OM that she loves him and misses him?

It sounds like you trust your source completely; but did she say that to the OM recently?

I hope you take extra special care of you while you are dealing with this new pain. CSue

SC:

I know how hard it hurts to hear your W of all these years say ILY to some stranger. That was in my W's email to OMW's H in March. Well, that was March, you say? When I've talked about my uneasiness with my W's hotmail acct, and continued contact with OM, I said that I was uncomfortable because she didn't think those remarks should bother me at all, and she's replied that she still feels that way. So, though I have no idea whether she says ILY, or anything else personal, to OMW's H or not, I do know she doesn't think there's anything wrong if she does. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

I am sorry that I confused that. I take it that your new proof includes the part where she told the OM that she loves him and misses him?

It sounds like you trust your source completely; but did she say that to the OM recently?

I hope you take extra special care of you while you are dealing with this new pain. CSue</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes; the proof does include that; the source is unimpeachable, I heard it myself, and it is very recent; they talk about this upcoming trip.

That she says ILY and I miss you in a conversation about this latest trip has me wondering if you should try to contact one of the MB alternates for advice about the trip.

SHOULD YOU INTERFERE NOW?

SHOULD YOU NOT INTERFERE? (per WAT's guidelines).

I honestly don't know. I wasn't planning to interfere with my W's desire to go to August Conference in OMW's H's hometown (but I did tell her, quite stupidly actually, that I would have left her if she'd met with him).

Sheesh,

I wish for just 1 DAY the WS could step into the BS shoes and see/feel/be/cope with what we feel as a result of the devestation their actions cause.

Space, you know that we all feel terrible for you and can imagine what you are feeling. I have had some pretty physical symptoms of the stress I have been under. WH said the other night that he hoped the A didn't kill me because it would kill him if it killed me and then who....would raise our children.

I think he just might be starting to "really get it". Unfortunately it doesn't sound like you WW has a clue. CSue

SC:

Rest assured our choices are never going to be easy!!!

I posted this to Mark H's thread. A joke that JL sent me about the difference between simple and easy. Cleared up a lot for me.

Okay, JL said I can do this, so I'm gonna paste that email from him in here. There's wisdom in these words!

"A cowboy is settling on a bull. He is wrapping and rewrapping the rope around his hand, getting ready. His friend is steadying the bull, and telling him: 'OK, this is it. The final go round. All you have to do is stay on for 8 seconds and the championship is yours! It is that simple. Just stay on this bull 8 short seconds. Got it?"

The cowboy nods.

Meanwhile, two old cowbys are sitting on a fence close to the pen, and one turns to the other and says: "That boy over there is about to learn the difference between SIMPLE and EASY."

Actually, Mark and JL. I tried this once. I had never ridden a bull in a rodeo in my life, and I didn't know the difference between simple and easy (or stupid!). The rodeo was at a ranch on the rim of a canyon, and when that bull got out of the pen, it went across the arena so fast that nobody could stop it before it went over the rim and into the canyon, with ME ON IT!

Sadly, we were both killed.