Wow! HH; you've hit a lot of things right on the head...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>{{{{{ SpaceCase }}}}}
I feel your pain!
Sorry, this is a tough, tough deal --

I don't know your W, but I believe she is a sick person -- she may not intend this, but in her present state, she seems to be a taker, a big time taker-- she probablly does not comprehend what she is doing to you! I can see where she is in big time denial -- has lost her sense of values in terms of a healthy, Christian Marital relationship. This is not your fault!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. It's curious, but I JUST NOW got up from the table, where I was having linch with my D, and we were saying EXACTLY this! That "mom" is in denial, and does not see what she is doing to all of us, and doensn't want to see that this is and has affected all of us in a very big way. Yes; she is in denial, and up to now I have not been lucky enough to have something happen to start changing this, nor have I been able to effect any change myself.

I was telling my daughter that my greatest fear was that my W would not "come to her senses" soon enough for it to do any good. That I have to try as much as I can because I could not bear to think of what will happen to her if she doesn't, and 2,3 years down the road, when I'm long gone, and the kids are long gone, she'll suddenly "wake up" and see what she did, and then it'll be too late. Too late for us, for me, and for her. And I hope this does not happen.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You may be a little like myself - brought up to believe that it is extremely important to be conscious of other peoples needs & to seek ways to help other people feel better about themself & to not be selfish & to not put our needs ahead of others -- much better to be a giver than a taker. I believe these are very admirable traits & ones that in most cases people would prefer a personlike this to: work with, have as friends & S's! This I bleieve mirrors the primary message Jesus Christ delivered. We should feel blessed that these kinds of things come easy for us (assuming you may be like this-) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am VERY MUCH like that. I was brought up this way, and I have been a happy parent, and a happy "giver". Not that I totally do not ask in return, I do, but basically I'm a giver.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
However, in certan situations the person we are attempting to be in a relationship with may not honor these traits (at least in their present mode) and have intense "taker" motives and they may in fact take advantage of our good nature, to get what they want -- and w/o regards in any way, to our needs or feelings -- this is what I mean when I say your W is a "sick" person -- I am saying she is a sick person, caught up in some self-gratifying trip or mode and without any true sense of what is right from wrong - whatever she feels she wants or needs and deserves is the only overiding factors to determine her actions & she is willing to say or do whatever it takes to get what she wants. Typically this is not the kind of perosn most people would want to entrust their heart & sense of self with. Co-depedent Issues!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes. Definitely my W went into a major, big-time Taker mode, perhaps long ago, I don't know, and she now feels she is entitled to all of this, that she's given enough and it's "her time". No question of that. Even before, she did have SOME of that taker that took advantage of my giver, and perhaps it is my fault for having let her for so long, that she did not learn to be a little more giving in return, or that my giving was reaching its limits. But then again, I myself did not recognize this happening, so I'm just as guilty.

Nevertheless, you are entirely correct; she is in big-time taker mode, and uop until now, there has been nothing to change that, except in very minor and superficial ways.

She does have a huge conflict within; this I've seen. She is trying to be more loving, she is trying to meet some of my needs, but it's like she has this internal struggle which almost doesn't LET her, like the littl "devil" pulling her back, saying "No, don't do that, It's YOUR turn!" I have seen this in her eyes, in her face as she looks at me, in the tears that start to form in the corner of her eyes, and then she's back...back to the taker. But she IS stuggling. Big time; and again, me, the giver, the WS, is doing ALL I possibly can to help her, and make it less painful for her, but there's precious little I can do.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now perhaps I am wrong with all of these assumptions, but I want to challenge you in a loving, brotherly way to encourage you to search deep within yourself for truth about who she is -- (right now at least!).
I am not leading up to suggesting you scrape her & throw away what is dear to you, your current Family structure. What I am suggesting is that you seriously consider a different tatic -- one like IL& protect me is promoting! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I have had these very thoughts many, many times during this 11-month ordeal. I believe that there is still a chance, albeit a small one, of my W coming out of the fog, seeing at least part of the light, and be willing to make some serious changes for herself and for our M. AND if that IS possible, then I would want to give her the opportunity to do so.

I'll tell you what, though; I will not accept a "partial" recovery, or a "half-hearted" committment to principles. Not this time.
I believe that after my W's first A, about 14 years ago, we both swept it under the carpet, did not process it, did not recover from it, and it has been a source of pain and problems ever since. Perhaps as serious as being one of the primary factors that drove us apart and helped create the environment in which another A would take place.

Because of this, I will not accept anything less than pretty much full compliance with Harley principles going forward.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No one has a corner on knowledge & we all have the uptmost respect for Steve and his priniciples, but he is only one person & he cannot possible serve everyone with a top priority -- I am sure you have heard of and have respect for James Dobson -- sure he has books, tapes,& seminars to sell -- but who doesn't?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are quite right in this. I have thought it often. And I have begun reading Dobson's book.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I don't know your limits or when you may snap, so to speak, but I am guessing you may be reaching your limits! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> - your resentment has to reach a point, where eventually you cave to your instincts -- you are only human & no human is without some instincts for self preservation -- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am reaching my limits. I was ready to Plan B weeks ago. But Steve had held me back, had asked for a more time to work on my W, and I have given it to him. But I am reaching the end, he knows it, and I know it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You feel certain you have irrefutable evidence of your W's plans with the OM -- Thus, if you really want to go that route-- continue with proof journey, contact a friend you can trust & that would be willing to track her down & with a camera, capture them together -- I don't know ?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The evidence is absolutely irrefutable. I can't go into details but there's no question of it.

My W has sustained for some time now, that the A is over, the R has ended, and that we should move on. I KNOW this is not the case, but I have (on Steve's request) not confronted her again with this evidence for several months. We are now reaching the point where we MUST confront, and Steve agrees, but we needed "fresher" evidence, and now we have it. And now, we will confront her in a controlled environment, with Steve's guidance and support, and we hope that this time she will be unable to squirrel out of it (as she has in the past) and will have to face the decision she's known she will have to eventually face. Several things have come together at this time which make this the right time; First, several months of very good Plan A, second, Steve's progress with her, Third, her recognition that I have done well, and I'm meeting most of her ENs, and other key factors which I cannot publically discuss.

So the next step is to plan the strategy of the confrontation with Steve, and in the next few days to do it. Based on what outcome this has, we have several options: If she still refuses to "give it up", it'll pretty much be Plan B time. If she DOES "give it up" and agrees to a recovery based on Harley principles, then we can go to the MB weekend (already booked) and we can begin our recovery.
It is possible that Steve will want us to go to the MB weekend BEFORE the confrontation, but I will resist that. I think it's futile to go there and work on our M under false pretenses: pretending the A is over and we're ready to recover.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Otherwise, I don't think you need anymore proof --Independent of any A, do you feel you have a satisfactory relationship? -- Is she truely willing to take steps to meet your needs? -- to work at making a better marital relationship? A person can only be asked to go so far along this one-way street. Becasue if your're tired of what she is putting you through, IMHO, who needs evidence -- Perhpas you tell her something like, "You are taking a time out! -- She can take her time, stay as long as she wishes, but when she returns she has some choices" -- No threats, it's just that you are making a decision that it is not working out in your terms and you are tired of pointing fingers and making request - "If it's not working, it's not working!" What does it matter who's fault? You could say, "We can end the fault game, right now." -- Then yu follow up with a Plan B kind of approach -- don't need evidence of A -- individual choices --She seems intent on not meeting your needs - her choice -- you have choices as well! Just the facts, as you know them, not a reason to punish her or be harsh - just move on --180 kind of things -- my two cnets worth here -- I don't know the ultimate answers, just wanting to offer alternatives to think about.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have though of and discussed many alternatives over time. But there is a right time for each, and up until now I was able to stick to my Plan A, and do it well, my love has not diminished enough that a Plan B is immediately called for, and my W has begun to respond positively to Steve (3rd MC), so there are many factors which have led us to wait and to find the "right time".
I believe we're almost there.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she has a sense you'll put up with virtually anything to keep the mariage, what incentive (in her current mode!)does she have to make any changes? NONE! No one method is full proof, but in many cases, when the S is forced into a decision & is held to some significant consequences, they make the right choice --otherwise, they have no real incentive to make a choice -- you know ... Cake ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. And we're almost there. But only if we have to.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You have some time now-- read Dobson's book, PLEASE!
Pray - you do have a friend in Jesus or the higher power of your choice actually. You need some solitude. You need some reinforcement that you are a good person & don't dserve these treatments! Be good to yourself, you deserve it!
Call MB back -- Why can't they log onto your threads here and call you tomorrow or Friday. If this evidence thing is still so important, they should have some feel for that & suggestions as to whether to try & get evidence with her actual visit. Otherwise, I would think you need to develop some other strategies -- or a big reinforcement of what it is you need to do, right now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, and I've slowly started to move in that direction, to make my needs and desires more and more important and come to the forefront. I have been VERY clear with my W about a great many things, like we have to do this the right way, like I'm hurt by her going to FL, that I will not tolerate any kind of continued contact, and that I am prepared to leave. She may not be fully convinced of this, but she's come a long way from where she was before. She is not not as sure that I won't leave her. I have not let her off the hook, and neither has Steve. She knows this better now that she did before.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Above all else -- this will end! Not soon enough I know, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but hang in there!
Love your children, they need you desperatly I am sure! With all this drama, they have to be a bit confused! I know they love you dearly & if it is not obvious now, as they mature they will see the truth more clearly -- that you are in fact the stronger one, their guiding light!
Peace be with you, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
HH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. The "end", either way, is near. Or at least the start of something, I'm hoping it'll be our recovery, but I am prepared for the other options as well.
My children are doing well, or as well as can be expected, and I am giving them all the support I can, and the information they need, to know what is happening and start preparing for it.

Thank you for your insight and you very accurate assessment! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

While I was writing this, my W called, she just landed and is going to get her rental....the saga continues!

SC:

This struck me:

"I am VERY MUCH like that. I was brought up this way, and I have been a happy parent, and a happy "giver". Not that I totally do not ask in return, I do, but basically I'm a giver."

I've always thought I was a good father, but my W is constantly telling me that I didn't do much for others, just got wrapped up in my own hobbies and my own success at work (like THAT has nothing to do with family). My W, on the other hand, has always been a real giver, she really has. We always did stuff with her schizophrenic brother's kids (when he and his xW couldn't or wouldn't), planned by my W. She was a Girl Scout leader (up until she started having an A, when she quit because she felt bad), and she's taking care of her mom by providing her a home (like I have nothing to do with that?). I'm not being generous enough with her here, because she really does try to help people out, even to her detriment. AT THE SAME TIME, her A showed that she could simultaneously be an extremely selfish and spiteful person for 12 years now.

How does that ever work? I'm mystified.

ILuv; I happen to agree with you in many ways, but I do not agree with you on the TIMING of events, because there is a REASON for them to be allowed to happen at the right time.

I began a point by point rebuttal, but it makes no sense to do that. We'd never end.

Let's just agree that we have different point of view on this, and that each one is right for each one of us. OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

This struck me:

"I am VERY MUCH like that. I was brought up this way, and I have been a happy parent, and a happy "giver". Not that I totally do not ask in return, I do, but basically I'm a giver."

I've always thought I was a good father, but my W is constantly telling me that I didn't do much for others, just got wrapped up in my own hobbies and my own success at work (like THAT has nothing to do with family). My W, on the other hand, has always been a real giver, she really has. We always did stuff with her schizophrenic brother's kids (when he and his xW couldn't or wouldn't), planned by my W. She was a Girl Scout leader (up until she started having an A, when she quit because she felt bad), and she's taking care of her mom by providing her a home (like I have nothing to do with that?). I'm not being generous enough with her here, because she really does try to help people out, even to her detriment. AT THE SAME TIME, her A showed that she could simultaneously be an extremely selfish and spiteful person for 12 years now.

How does that ever work? I'm mystified.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good question 2L; I suspect that even in a giver, the taker sometimes takes over, and in the case of WS, it is perhaps more pronounced, and indeed, it includes an added element; that of denying the giving that others do. Perhaps it is part of the self-justification they need in order to continue behavior they instinctively know to be wrong.

okay sc, your right...it never ends. BUT you know what is best for your unique situation, I have to remind myself that not just remind you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spacecase,
Thanks for update! I can see that you have a better perspective on the reality of this than I what I was wondering about or concerned with.
I am no expert & am not a counsleor by any stretch and you are wise to counsel with Steve. I will say that inyour last post it makes more sense, his plan,if you will.
I have a hunch that ILUVnProtect ME, like myself, was wondering about Steve's perception here. I do believe that a WS can be very convincing to outsiders and provide an academy award winning performance with dception and all -- I know in my case, my W is very good with her C & our Pastor in soliciting support for her slant on things --like with our P, he seems to have adopted a posture of caring about her more, as if she was a victem in all this & that I am just an insecure, jealous, controling H! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
With the C with Steve and the evidence you have, I can see your advantage -- her game is about to end. And hopefully, between your actions & Steve's work, she'll make the right choices & you will have a safe place for recovery.
I must re-inforce a point with you. We know that she has an illness of sorts -- Please use caution with your emphathy towards her in this regards. You cannot cure her, she has to take steps to cure herself & as you know, she has to hit bottom, before she will have incentive to seek a cure, to seek help -- she will likely still want to seek comprimises on this -- I can see where perhaps Steve has developed enough of a trusting relationshio with her & gotten certain promises from her & that with this final shoe, she will in effect have betrayed not only you, but Steve as well & that could offer a bigger "stick" so to speak to shack her into reality & into recovery.
From what you said, you have in a very real sense set some boundaries with the no contact thing - - that you will not tolerate it & would consider leaving. You have to be prepared to follow up on that -- just as ILUVnProtect ME stated about descipline and all.
You mentioned talking with your D about this & your W's illness; May I ask, how old is she?
I would caution you about not involving her.
In my example, my W involved our D in a lot of our disputes during the time (which I now know) she had the A's (actually long before as well) and solicited our D's support on her positions that I had problems with. My W did admitt not long ago that she was indeed abusive towrds me during much of M. My D was 23 on D-Dy and had courses in couseling, majored in Human Services & was(is) very mature. One of our D's best friends parents had infidelity problems. My DW was very focal about my trying to "control" her -- And becasue we sweept in under the table the last time, I knew this time around it was not going to work that way -- Our son was 29 at time -- al of this to justify that in my mind at least, I did not have anyone else to turn to and so I involved the kids to some degree & they knew what she did & they both came to my rescue, big time! I don't know how I could have coped & I am sure if they did not know what they knew & I asked my W to give them a general summary, that she would have spun her part to deminish it as a small indescreation & that I was mostly the fault, dah, dah. -- my point is that I am afraid this has taken a tole on our dear D's mental health -- She loves us both & she wanted me to leave her M & she was fully prepared to love us as individuals and not as a couple -- She was totally mature and supportive towards me & realatively unemotional, but in the after-math I believe the thought of what her mom did & what she did to the family & to me have been haunting! I believe she is not nearly as resentful towards her mom now, but the relationship will perhaps never be the same & I am not sure it should not be. That is, my W is a deffinate "taker" and she used this triangle kind of thing between the three of us, she is now not able to take the liberities she did before, with her ranting against me to gain support & justifications for what she wanted -- more freedom for seperate vaction times, seperate ski lessons -- what ever her agenda was, if it was something I did not support, she would give her spins to our D, who would then in turn come back to me -- I needed to play less golf & do more yard work, so my W had more time & money to collect antiques and unlimited clothes, collectables, pottery ... blah, blah
Our D I know could see differences in how my Was dressing & acted at family gathering with D female cousins & their stories of going out drinking and all -- (all of this was before D/D and my D was telling me to back off with the cloths thing & I told her my (her M) would go to work W/O wedding ring as an example of why I questioned all of this -- One thing my W said was that she wore more silver & the gold (rings) were a clash -- our D got her M, cheap silver bands for Christmas -- We cannot expect our children to fight our battles for us -- I believe this was part of my weakness as a Co-dependent. I was definately being over powered by my W & I instinctively knew it, but did not know how to cope with this on my own -- Tough Stuff!!

All of this to say, please be very careful what you share with your children, and how you involve them -- no matter how old they are. If they are mature, I believe it is important they know the truth -- otherwise, a taker will spin it their way -- be assured of that, but try hard not to get them involved with your batttles! I blieve the illness part makes sense. As I believe you have a good sense for, you don't want them to build resentment towards their M -- this is mostly between you & her but don't get too carried away with "hiding" the facts to where it looks like she has done no wrong -- I still believe she has to feel some serious consequnces & the family knowing some things is a part of this.

Continued prayers,
HH

SpaceCase:

Is Steve having you fill out a love bank inventory before each session? I think that's one of the ways that he gauges that you're ready for Plan B. I remember the exact opposite situation for me---he felt that I needed to get to Plan B, and I'd tell him that I wasn't ready...

As much as HH and ILuv are trying to help here, I'd suggest that you tune them out for now. This methodology (Plan A and B) is designed for you to act in specific ways at various stages. It's not about reacting to what your wife is doing. I do believe that you're going to be in Plan B before too long. And I also see a lot of positive signs that will indicate that you will recover from this. But my best guess is that your wife needs the drastic reality of Plan B to cut through the fog---to allow the OM free access to really meet her needs, and to see the affair fail.

You've done a terrific job setting yourself up for success with an outstanding Plan A. The only things you want to avoid in transitioning to Plan B are:

1. Shooting yourself in the foot regarding being in 'early recovery' (in which the affair is really over).

2. Punishing your wife for her behavior.

I think you'll be able to avoid both of those pitfalls, and get yourself to the safer place of a separation...

Overall, I think you're still on path and doing terrific.

HH:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a hunch that ILUVnProtect ME, like myself, was wondering about Steve's perception here. I do believe that a WS can be very convincing to outsiders and provide an academy award winning performance with dception and all -- I know in my case, my W is very good with her C & our Pastor in soliciting support for her slant on things --like with our P, he seems to have adopted a posture of caring about her more, as if she was a victem in all this & that I am just an insecure, jealous, controling H!
With the C with Steve and the evidence you have, I can see your advantage -- her game is about to end. And hopefully, between your actions & Steve's work, she'll make the right choices & you will have a safe place for recovery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel very safe in saying that it's highly unlikely that Steve will have the wool pulled over his eyes in regards to SC's wife. Not only is he extremely experienced in being able to see right through these acting jobs, he has 'eerie powers' in being able to predict EXACTLY what the WS will do next (in the majority of cases). It's a combination of the experience he has with dealing with so many of these situations, coupled with the similar patterns of affairs.

My guess is that Steve's trying to suck SC's wife into counseling to get HER to see the flaws in her logic. He may bait her in a trap that she's made herself, with the lies and deceptions. She may choose to come clean and work it out (hooray). She might also take great umbrage at Steve and quit counseling (and SC will be in Plan B a week or two afterwards). My wife did this with Steve---she listened and debated with him for a few sessions, and then quit (the affair was still very active). She hated him. It was only during Plan B (and the ending of the affair) that she realized that Steve was pretty much right on target. But the good is that Steve is the one doing the education here---not you (or me or SC), so that 'lovebuster' is avoided. And when the wayward spouse realizes that Steve was right about the affair not being sustainable (and everything else), they also remember the fact that Steve said that there's still hope for the marriage...

Hopefully this will all play out in SC's favor...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>Spacecase,
Thanks for update!...With the C with Steve and the evidence you have, I can see your advantage --her game is about to end. And hopefully, between your actions & Steve's work, she'll make the right choices & you will have a safe place for recovery.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. I believe the "final showdown" is coming soon, and I believe I have done all that I can possibly do to make her feel she's safe with me, and that I can and do love her even when I KNOW she's headed to see the OM. In our case, that's a very key point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I must re-inforce a point with you. We know that she has an illness of sorts -- Please use caution with your emphathy towards her in this regards. You cannot cure her, she has to take steps to cure herself & as you know, she has to hit bottom, before she will have incentive to seek a cure, to seek help -- she will likely still want to seek comprimises on this -- I can see where perhaps Steve has developed enough of a trusting relationshio with her & gotten certain promises from her & that with this final shoe, she will in effect have betrayed not only you, but Steve as well & that could offer a bigger "stick" so to speak to shack her into reality & into recovery.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I get you here: "Please use caution with your emphathy towards her in this regards." does tha t mean use more or less empathy with her? and why?

Also, why do you believe she HAS to hit bottom for her to seek help or a cure? And for what specifically, the Taker?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>From what you said, you have in a very real sense set some boundaries with the no contact thing - - that you will not tolerate it & would consider leaving. You have to be prepared to follow up on that -- just as ILUVnProtect ME stated about descipline and all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have; and just because I'm not willing to make the ultimate gesture (Plan B) at the first sign of her breaking them, does not mean she doesn't get it or that I'm being a floormat, or that I'm anabling the A. She knows it's wrong, she gets hit by Steve and I for it, and it has begun to sink in with a great many things, if not with No Contact, (yet). Just the fact that after many, many months I have NOT backed off from some of these things, and have not accepted compromises is already having its effects on her, and on me. She knows the time to waffle on a decision is coming to an end...I have seen it, the level of stress she's under, everything. She's feeling it big time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You mentioned talking with your D about this & your W's illness; May I ask, how old is she?
I would caution you about not involving her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our daughter is 16, as is her twin brother. We also have an older son who turns 20 in a couple of weeks.

And just so you know, it was HER saying that mom is "in denial", and on another planet. She, perhaps more than the other kids, has felt the change and the impact of this from her mother.

I thought about this quite a bit, and decided I had to talk to them about what was happening with us. In the first place, because they heard us fighting on DDay and the following days, and I felt it was unfair to keep them in the dark, and protect this secret. We are extremely open and have had a very open relationship with all our children. These kids literally tell us everything, and they know that if they tell us the truth, we will always find a solution, that it is when they lie that we have a problem. As a consequence, we simply do not exclude them from anything going on in the family, business, or personal lives.

But having said that, let me make it clear that what we have talked about HAS NOT ever been about who is right and wrong, or in any way, shape or form to take sides. In fact, I have spent countless hours explaining to them why it IS NOT all their mother's fault and my part in this. Very open, candid and with all the faults and weaknesses.

I don't know if this will somehow hurt them in the future; but I doubt it. With us, it's always all been right there in the open for all to see. In a way, THAT is what the kids perceive as their mother's greatest betrayal; that for the first time that they have seen, there are lies in the house, and the very person who taught them how very important and valuable and positive the truth can be, is the very person who has deserted her own teachings.

But they don't take sides, and I would not allow that ever. They are never used as a conduit between my wife and I, in either direction.

Bravo, K <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for dropping by, K. Always appreciate your input.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>SpaceCase:

Is Steve having you fill out a love bank inventory before each session? I think that's one of the ways that he gauges that you're ready for Plan B. I remember the exact opposite situation for me---he felt that I needed to get to Plan B, and I'd tell him that I wasn't ready...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, he actually has not. He probes me for signs, though, and leaves it up to me to decide. But he's pushed me beyond what I thought I could handle, and it's been OK.
He's felt he needed more time with my W, and has spent MUCH more time with her than me, and I think he's preparing her well.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This methodology (Plan A and B) is designed for you to act in specific ways at various stages. It's not about reacting to what your wife is doing. I do believe that you're going to be in Plan B before too long.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you say that? Don't think these "stubborn" WSs can come out of the fog without it? Even with a good "hammering" of a confrontation?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And I also see a lot of positive signs that will indicate that you will recover from this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pray tell; I need all the positive signs reinforced as I keep losing hope...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But my best guess is that your wife needs the drastic reality of Plan B to cut through the fog---to allow the OM free access to really meet her needs, and to see the affair fail.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm afraid this is the same conclusion I have reached. In fact, I have floated the theory that Plan B, even if not strictly REQUIRED by Harley standards, might be just the ticket for reluctant spouses to make SURE they get it, really learn the lesson for the future. And I mean this in the best way, not as punishment AT ALL. It's like all of life's lessons, it's different to learn about seat-belts when the neighbor is hurt in an accident, that when we personally are.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You've done a terrific job setting yourself up for success with an outstanding Plan A. The only things you want to avoid in transitioning to Plan B are:

1. Shooting yourself in the foot regarding being in 'early recovery' (in which the affair is really over).

2. Punishing your wife for her behavior.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I follow you on the first part..."early recovery"...
Totally agree with the punishing part. I've learned that lesson well!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Overall, I think you're still on path and doing terrific. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again, K.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel very safe in saying that it's highly unlikely that Steve will have the wool pulled over his eyes in regards to SC's wife. Not only is he extremely experienced in being able to see right through these acting jobs, he has 'eerie powers' in being able to predict EXACTLY what the WS will do next (in the majority of cases). It's a combination of the experience he has with dealing with so many of these situations, coupled with the similar patterns of affairs.

My guess is that Steve's trying to suck SC's wife into counseling to get HER to see the flaws in her logic. He may bait her in a trap that she's made herself, with the lies and deceptions. She may choose to come clean and work it out (hooray). She might also take great umbrage at Steve and quit counseling (and SC will be in Plan B a week or two afterwards). My wife did this with Steve---she listened and debated with him for a few sessions, and then quit (the affair was still very active). She hated him. It was only during Plan B (and the ending of the affair) that she realized that Steve was pretty much right on target. But the good is that Steve is the one doing the education here---not you (or me or SC), so that 'lovebuster' is avoided. And when the wayward spouse realizes that Steve was right about the affair not being sustainable (and everything else), they also remember the fact that Steve said that there's still hope for the marriage...

Hopefully this will all play out in SC's favor...[/QB][/QUOTE]

K,
Well Put! -- I began to see this kind of thing with SC's last post -- up until then I was not seeing it!!
Again, if nothing else, because of Steve's involment, SC, I feel some confidence in your situation that us ametuers cannot begin to duplicate in experience & knowledge to compare to Steve!

Maybe it is part of my denial here, but I still don't think Steve had it nailed completely (and who is to say anyone could, for that matter!), when it seemed he was not convinced about SC's W's intents here -- he seemed to be giving her lots of credit for her apparent need for "Privacy" and thus I assumed "not" an intent to hide or decieve? And if Steve was thinking she was still having contact, why the insistence on proof? But I do remember SC saying that Steve said that it would be more difficult for her to hide this -- I assume even w/o proof -- I am curious, what was that all about it? Stayed tuned, right!
Now I don't have enough experience with counselors here, but I know Steve has to develop some confidence with SC's W & trust in order to help her - does this not in some sense create a conflict of interest when it comes to being open with SC in terms of her discussions -- I mean is it possible Steve has put a slight slant on this to SC that is not entirely accurate in terms of SC's W's stated intentions and all, to protect her confidentiality? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> How does that work?
Yet, on the other hand, I know in my case, my W's counselor was very clear that he could not C me & her; Or, could not be our couples C -- conflict thing -- Yet this seems to give my DW free will to tell him whatever she wishes, to make her look better or perhaps justified in certian ways. And she is also free to spin things acoording to her slant that she reports back to me what he said. I definateky got the impression many times that it was like her & her C against me -- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

With both SC & W talking with Steve, I can see an advantage that there would be less opportunity for tales on each each other --
I agree, it does in deed seem Steve has a definate plan to flush these things out into the open & perhaps most importantly, a built in safety net of sorts to put back the pieces!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spacecase and 2long...

While your situations differ greatly in many ways from mine there are always some similiarites.

Reading about how you let your wife go on her flight with full knowledge of her intent kind of gave me a shiver. I guess it made me realize how painful it must have been for hubby to let me leave, knowing full well that I intended on starting a life with someone else and that there was not one thing he felt he could do about it.

We never really Plan anythinged...but we did have false recoveries several times. He most certainly could have told me NO WAY when I called to try to patch things up just a couple of weeks before our divorce was to be final. But what he said was "I'm ready to move on, with or without you." The fact that there was still a WITH in that sentence gave me the strength to try to come back and the fact that there was a OR WITHOUT in that sentence helped me to realize that this was my last shot. He was ready for the pain to end, and if I started in on my old ways I'm sure he wouldn't have hesitated to boot me ASAP.

But it didn't happen the first time. Maybe with better bounderies or maybe with this or that... All I can say is that it took me time to pull my head out...and we're really really good today. And I was only "foggy" for 2 years...not 20.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Spacecase and 2long...

... He most certainly could have told me NO WAY when I called to try to patch things up just a couple of weeks before our divorce was to be final. But what he said was "I'm ready to move on, with or without you." The fact that there was still a WITH in that sentence gave me the strength to try to come back and the fact that there was a OR WITHOUT in that sentence helped me to realize that this was my last shot. He was ready for the pain to end, and if I started in on my old ways I'm sure he wouldn't have hesitated to boot me ASAP.

But it didn't happen the first time. Maybe with better bounderies or maybe with this or that... All I can say is that it took me time to pull my head out...and we're really really good today. And I was only "foggy" for 2 years...not 20.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hope4Future
Very good share!
HH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>I feel very safe in saying that it's highly unlikely that Steve will have the wool pulled over his eyes in regards to SC's wife. Not only is he extremely experienced in being able to see right through these acting jobs, he has 'eerie powers' in being able to predict EXACTLY what the WS will do next (in the majority of cases). It's a combination of the experience he has with dealing with so many of these situations, coupled with the similar patterns of affairs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'll tell you; at least from what he has said to me, he feels (or has felt) that there's an "80% chance she's telling the truth", and I think he may have been fooled partially because, as he puts it, my W "may have a real problem with this privacy thing". So maybe it's hard for him to discern what part of it is the A and what part of it this penchant for "privacy".

I personally believe this "privacy" thing is 95% Affair-motivated. I feel it's her sole remaining "socially acceptable" way of justifying her inability to be transparent in her things with me or Steve. After all, she's been caught in lies about the continuing A 5-6 times already, so she's run out of "excuses" pretty much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My guess is that Steve's trying to suck SC's wife into counseling to get HER to see the flaws in her logic. He may bait her in a trap that she's made herself, with the lies and deceptions. She may choose to come clean and work it out (hooray). She might also take great umbrage at Steve and quit counseling (and SC will be in Plan B a week or two afterwards).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what Steve has told me. He says that as they move along the "path" of the Harley method, and begin to accept and internalize the concepts, it will eventually reach a point where she will almost automatically have to confess and come clean.

And the two possible outcomes are exactly correct. No way around that.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But the good is that Steve is the one doing the education here---not you (or me or SC), so that 'lovebuster' is avoided. And when the wayward spouse realizes that Steve was right about the affair not being sustainable (and everything else), they also remember the fact that Steve said that there's still hope for the marriage...

Hopefully this will all play out in SC's favor... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully, if it comes to this last "phase", all of the time Steve has spent with her, and all of the progress he's made, will be enough to elicit this response.

Thanks, K.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
K,
Well Put! -- I began to see this kind of thing with SC's last post -- up until then I was not seeing it!!
Again, if nothing else, because of Steve's involment, SC, I feel some confidence in your situation that us ametuers cannot begin to duplicate in experience & knowledge to compare to Steve!

Maybe it is part of my denial here, but I still don't think Steve had it nailed completely (and who is to say anyone could, for that matter!), when it seemed he was not convinced about SC's W's intents here -- he seemed to be giving her lots of credit for her apparent need for "Privacy" and thus I assumed "not" an intent to hide or decieve? [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, as I stated earlier in my reply to K, I think that perhaps since there may be a combination of "hiding the A" and "the privacy" thing which she has so insisted on, Steve may have been led to have doubts. I don't know, really.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And if Steve was thinking she was still having contact, why the insistence on proof? But I do remember SC saying that Steve said that it would be more difficult for her to hide this -- I assume even w/o proof -- I am curious, what was that all about it? Stayed tuned, right!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part is more complicated; the insistence on "positive proof" came from the fact that he was unsure as to whether she WAS lying or not, and she was ADAMANT that the A had ended, and therefore he felt that without "absolute proof" it would be difficult/impossible to obtain a confession/acceptance.

In case we were unable to get "absolute proof", Steve said that over time, as we moved thru the steps of learning/accepting/implementing the concepts, the moment would arrive when she would HAVE to confess/come clean, because she would be unable not to, having by then realized that this would be too damaging and impossible to hide, etc.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now I don't have enough experience with counselors here, but I know Steve has to develop some confidence with SC's W & trust in order to help her - does this not in some sense create a conflict of interest when it comes to being open with SC in terms of her discussions -- I mean is it possible Steve has put a slight slant on this to SC that is not entirely accurate in terms of SC's W's stated intentions and all, to protect her confidentiality? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> How does that work?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very valid point, and while I have not specifically asked Steve about it, I feel that they take the approach that what they are after is to help couples build and create love between them, that this is NEVER a matter of one over the other, and that they can therefore really be neutral. And it's true; here they are not dealing with abstracts very much, it's all pretty clear and straighforward in terms of getting both partners to understand and implement the concepts, and they only deal with, say childhood issues, within the context of accepting a concept, and not in a more abstract thing, like forgiving your father.

While I have no doubt that as a temporary tactical move Steve may, on occasion withhold some information from one or both, the reality is that he only talks about what he spoke with my W in very general terms, and I presume he does the same with her and what I tell him. I'll tell you this; in no way do I feel that Steve is either in my camp or her camp; he truly is just as tough on me as on her, and just as blunt.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
With both SC & W talking with Steve, I can see an advantage that there would be less opportunity for tales on each each other --
I agree, it does in deed seem Steve has a definate plan to flush these things out into the open & perhaps most importantly, a built in safety net of sorts to put back the pieces!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Totally true. Unless you have 2 counselors that are both from the "Harley school", and both have the opportunity to at least talk to both partners at some point, I doubt you could ever reach the level of no-nonsense, no-game-playing that we can reach by sharing the C.

As to the second statement, regarding the safety net and picking up the pieces, it is in great part BECAUSE of this, that Steve has asked me to hold off, to be patient, to give him more time to work with my W, so that when the "confrontation" or conflict came, she'd know enough and accept enough to be able to "pick up the pieces" and keep going. Otherwise, he says, we might lose her and not be able to bring her back.

There IS a method to the madness!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Spacecase and 2long...

While your situations differ greatly in many ways from mine there are always some similiarites.

Reading about how you let your wife go on her flight with full knowledge of her intent kind of gave me a shiver. I guess it made me realize how painful it must have been for hubby to let me leave, knowing full well that I intended on starting a life with someone else and that there was not one thing he felt he could do about it.

We never really Plan anythinged...but we did have false recoveries several times. He most certainly could have told me NO WAY when I called to try to patch things up just a couple of weeks before our divorce was to be final. But what he said was "I'm ready to move on, with or without you." The fact that there was still a WITH in that sentence gave me the strength to try to come back and the fact that there was a OR WITHOUT in that sentence helped me to realize that this was my last shot. He was ready for the pain to end, and if I started in on my old ways I'm sure he wouldn't have hesitated to boot me ASAP.

But it didn't happen the first time. Maybe with better bounderies or maybe with this or that... All I can say is that it took me time to pull my head out...and we're really really good today. And I was only "foggy" for 2 years...not 20.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your input, H2F; I think it is PRECISELY because of the scenario you painted, that all of these "moves" and "decisions" and their "timing" are so critical and important.

In your case, since you made the move to leave before he was able to Plan A or anything like that, and the fact that "there was not one thing he felt he could do about it" as opposed to "NOT WANTING to do anything about it", etc. etc. makes all the difference in the world.

Sure there are many different roads to recovery, there ar homemade ones, there's Dobson, there's Harley and Weiner-Davis, and they all work or don't work, but the more careful and intelligent we are about them, the better the chances, or the shorter, or the less painful, or the more lasting and real the recovery can be...there's recovery and then there's recovery...a wide range of "levels" of recovery are possible, as we see here daily.

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Gee SC! I still don't have as many posts to my thread as you do! (just changed it to "2longs 2rmoil")

DOH! I just gave you another one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, I wanted to post this part of my last post there for your (and your thread folks') perusal. This surprised me:

2long: "Incidentally, her username is rather sad, an abbreviation for something that indicates she has deviant social behavior (so as not to be giving hints as to what it is). I said that it's a very sad name, and she said that's what everybody thinks she is. I said that I don't, and I want very much to try to convince her otherwise, so that she'll consider changing that name. MAN. I really had no idea that she was being so HARD on herself, internally. I thought the choice of username was simple sarcasm. Instead, hearing this tells me that there's a lot more going on in her head that I haven't been aware of. In a way, it's a bit of a relief to hear that she's chosen that name as something of a "punishment" for failing to be the kind of person she was, because it's a lot better than if she had chosen it because she's PROUD of being "amoral." Make any sense?
Anyway, I need to remember that I'm NOT the injured party, here. I know. We all know that. But I think I need to keep reminding myself of that fact. I love my W because I know what kind of human being she is capable of being. I want her to love herself because she can restore herself to her "original" high morality. I apologize to her, to our family, and to anyone that knows her for my part in allowing our M to sour to the point that she felt she had only this road to follow. She's demeaned herself unfairly."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Gee SC! I still don't have as many posts to my thread as you do! (just changed it to "2longs 2rmoil")

DOH! I just gave you another one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, I wanted to post this part of my last post there for your (and your thread folks') perusal. This surprised me:

2long: "Incidentally, her username is rather sad, an abbreviation for something that indicates she has deviant social behavior (so as not to be giving hints as to what it is). I said that it's a very sad name, and she said that's what everybody thinks she is. I said that I don't, and I want very much to try to convince her otherwise, so that she'll consider changing that name. MAN. I really had no idea that she was being so HARD on herself, internally. I thought the choice of username was simple sarcasm. Instead, hearing this tells me that there's a lot more going on in her head that I haven't been aware of. In a way, it's a bit of a relief to hear that she's chosen that name as something of a "punishment" for failing to be the kind of person she was, because it's a lot better than if she had chosen it because she's PROUD of being "amoral." Make any sense?
Anyway, I need to remember that I'm NOT the injured party, here. I know. We all know that. But I think I need to keep reminding myself of that fact. I love my W because I know what kind of human being she is capable of being. I want her to love herself because she can restore herself to her "original" high morality. I apologize to her, to our family, and to anyone that knows her for my part in allowing our M to sour to the point that she felt she had only this road to follow. She's demeaned herself unfairly."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What, we're competing for posts now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe I'll talk to my shrink about that; could be my need for attention - LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, it is interesting that she'd have a username that somehow "punishes" her for not being what she thinks she should be, AND to use that particular email with the OM...I don't know, that's beyond my powers of analysis! Maybe some of the very insightful ladies has an interpretation (ILuv, Orchid, Faith, Pepperoni, Pizza...)

And do not over-compensate here; you DID play a part in this, but you are ALSO the more injured party; I know you and I both bend over backwards to place as little blame on our Ws as we can, and to accept perhaps more blame ourselves than we should, with a somewhat misplaced sense of honor or sacrifice, or something! But let's not lose sight of the fact that we did not have the A, and we are here making herculean efforts to save our W's from themselves primarily, and that we've worked pretty hard at it for pretty long! So pats on the back all around, hugs and kisses (2L you need to shave, man!) and all that stuff!

AND, I just got a call from the wifey, she was unpacking and found some of the notes, and she was all mushy and kissy-kissy on the phone, and she said she loved me, and that this was very nice....so I'm kinda feeling good...and my thanks to the forum for the idea! I hope this feeling somewhat sticks when she sees the OM tomorrow....OUCH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC:

Well, before I go and say what I was going to say, I should say: My W just came out of the bedroom to ask me to get some photos out of the car that she saved from work. All "upbeat" and that.

Now, what I was going to tell you. I'll respond to your post here, then try to lure you and others on over to 2longs 2rmoil, so that I can accumulate some posts and maybe win this oh-so-important competition! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC: "Well, it is interesting that she'd have a username that somehow "punishes" her for not being what she thinks she should be,"

We talked about this (among a BUNCH of other things) while the kids went to rent movies from Lackluster Video and pick up some foodies from Taco Hell. Well, she doesn't think it's punishment. She thinks that "deviant" is just ouside the norm, which I suppose it is, but then she said that it's "unnaceptable" and to most people what she does is. Almost pridefully said that. I can't fix that.

"AND to use that particular email with the OM...I don't know, that's beyond my powers of analysis! Maybe some of the very insightful ladies has an interpretation (ILuv, Orchid, Faith, Pepperoni, Pizza...)"

I could use some of that kind of sage advice/interpretation here, but my W is so stubborn that she'll probably fly off the handle at any attempt to understand her. In other words, my W is not just a "won't take NO for an answer" kind of personality, she won't even take YES for an answer. She's right or there's no reason for a conversation.

"And do not over-compensate here; you DID play a part in this, but you are ALSO the more injured party; I know you and I both bend over backwards to place as little blame on our Ws as we can, and to accept perhaps more blame ourselves than we should, with a somewhat misplaced sense of honor or sacrifice, or something! But let's not lose sight of the fact that we did not have the A, and we are here making herculean efforts to save our W's from themselves primarily, and that we've worked pretty hard at it for pretty long!"

Well, all that is correct, but it wins absolutely no points whatsoever with my W. For that matter, neither does "Yes".

"So pats on the back all around, hugs and kisses (2L you need to shave, man!) and all that stuff!"

I ain't shavin' for you, SC! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />