Today's the day. I KNOW she's going to the prison today to see the OM; this was confirmed.

She called just a few minutes ago, asked me about the kids, how I was doing, what was going on, chit-chat. I told her everything was fine, kids at work, asleep.

Then she says "thank you for the little notes. I found more today, every time I open the suitcase I find more...thank you, they are so sweet. I love you."
I said; "I mean every word, and that was the general idea, that you'd keep finding them..."
Then she says: "You know, I have a lot of anger inside of me, a lot of anger at many things, I'm just full of anger."
Kinda' caught me off guard and I said something to the effect that I'd like to help her get rid of that anger, that I wish she'd let me, that I knew she had a lot of anger, and that she needed to get rid of it because it will just burn her up inside, and that I imagined that most of it was caused unitentionally, without a desire to hurt, and that we all needed to get rid of that from inside us.

I hope this means she's thinking about things, maybe coming to some conclusions? I can hope can't I?

SC:

I think the notes are having a positive effect. Good for you!

As for the anger remark: This is exactly the kind of thing that has thrown me off balance lately. I do or say something that's good plan A behavior, and out from left field (like bringing a charge, "q", from infinity...) comes a statement or accusation like that. What did she say to your response? I've been trying to use responses like that (like I did regarding her username yesterday) and they've been stomped on quickly by another judgemental remark.

I guess I know the answer to this question: Walk away and avoid the confrontation. Sometimes I can do that okay, and then there's now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel very safe in saying that it's highly unlikely that Steve will have the wool pulled over his eyes in regards to SC's wife. Not only is he extremely experienced in being able to see right through these acting jobs, he has 'eerie powers' in being able to predict EXACTLY what the WS will do next (in the majority of cases). It's a combination of the experience he has with dealing with so many of these situations, coupled with the similar patterns of affairs.

My guess is that Steve's trying to suck SC's wife into counseling to get HER to see the flaws in her logic. He may bait her in a trap that she's made herself, with the lies and deceptions. She may choose to come clean and work it out (hooray). She might also take great umbrage at Steve and quit counseling (and SC will be in Plan B a week or two afterwards). My wife did this with Steve---she listened and debated with him for a few sessions, and then quit (the affair was still very active). She hated him. It was only during Plan B (and the ending of the affair) that she realized that Steve was pretty much right on target. But the good is that Steve is the one doing the education here---not you (or me or SC), so that 'lovebuster' is avoided. And when the wayward spouse realizes that Steve was right about the affair not being sustainable (and everything else), they also remember the fact that Steve said that there's still hope for the marriage...

Hopefully this will all play out in SC's favor... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good post K!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then she says "thank you for the little notes. I found more today, every time I open the suitcase I find more...thank you, they are so sweet. I love you."

Then she says: "You know, I have a lot of anger inside of me, a lot of anger at many things, I'm just full of anger."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great job on the notes SC! I think she had rationalized going to see OM because she is so angry and unhappy. NOW she knows you are not the cause of the anger and unhappiness. You definately gave her something to think about. NOW if she goes, she must take full responsibility for her actions. She can't blame you AT ALL!

SC,
What I meant about your empathy for her actions as an Illness, was that, IMHO, you still need to be very firm on certain things, that may initially seem mean – like the plan B thing --That is even though she is in this fog or zone or this "sickness" of sorts, and does not fully understand the stupidity of her actions, she non the less will have to accept the responsibility for these actions. Like Plan B for example. I was trying to say don't let your emphathy turn into sympathy.
Again, we are amateurs here, but most things I read with this kind of "out of control" behavior, the person acting out just does not want to change – this is like their drug of choice; it fills a certain void –Attention w/o real intimacy for example. They may very well have to feel severe consequences before they are shocked into reality, to change – this I believe is the confrontation you refer to with Steve as the moderator – Super idea!!
This scenario would also go with the idea of “hitting bottom” I referred to. Where with a confrontation, her secret is out – all her lies are uncovered for what they are – her credibility as a truthful person is shot! All not pleasant things, but perhaps very necessary in order to bring her out of this.
Now along these lines – perhaps some might say mean spirited here, but when you talk with her about her day, would it not be somewhat natural for you to casually ask her about her plans for the day or if at the end of the day, to ask how her day went. Like, tell me, "what all did you do today?" ---In a word, force her to lie, make her dig herslef deeper & deeper, otherwise, I am concerned she may still be able to swirm her way out of a confesson!! It seems if you are trying to flush this big elephant out into the open, this might help – perhaps she is forced to come clean – if not, she will be lying, still again & this provides still further evidence as to how deep she is into this game – more ammunition for the confrontation day – It would really lock in or confirm (if nothing else, but for Steve's perspective!) her ability to lie to you. Could you tape this?
In so many words, I believe she will have to eventually feel the fever (heat) before she seeks any solutions – It sounds like she has a pretty good ability to resist a lot of the heat – deflect and/or ignore the existence of any problems – a fever, so to speak.

How you described the interaction with your D and the family, in general sounds pretty healthy – I would still be cautious – I assume you have discussed at some length this topic with your counselor or Steve. I am way out of the water on this one- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I have some dysfunction’s here – I was raised to sweep things under the rug – ignore problems, to not confront – this is why I am such a co-dependent at times.

Did I understand you correctly, that you were discussing your W having A’s with your D? And your W knows about these discussions?
I also agree with others, you may have contributed to some marital problems, but you cannot take the responsibility of the A’s – that’s her doing!!

Are you still reading Dobson’s book? Any thoughts here?

Peace be with you, brother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I think the notes are having a positive effect. Good for you!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looks like it! I'm very happy about this. She really sounded sincere in her surprise and almost...joy!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As for the anger remark: This is exactly the kind of thing that has thrown me off balance lately. I do or say something that's good plan A behavior, and out from left field (like bringing a charge, "q", from infinity...) comes a statement or accusation like that. What did she say to your response? I've been trying to use responses like that (like I did regarding her username yesterday) and they've been stomped on quickly by another judgemental remark.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was not directing this at me per se, although part of her anger is at me. She said that I was right, that she needed to find a way to get rid of the anger...we'll see what that means...

SC:

That does sound hopeful. I'm rootin' for ya!

I wish I could get someone to take my place for the next couple of years via a brain-transplant or something, then let me know how I did.

My W just called again; sounded very cheery and was full of I love you's...see why this drives me nuts!?!?

She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? Is it a show? Did something happen and is it real? Questions without answers...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W just called again; sounded very cheery and was full of I love you's...see why this drives me nuts!?!?She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? Is it a show? Did something happen and is it real? Questions without answers... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The addiction comparison helps here.

Does an addict love their family? Yes.

Do they intend to cause pain? No.

Don't they know they need to stop? Yes

THEN WHY DON'T THEY???? - BECAUSE THEY CAN'T BY THEMSELVES.

They need outside stimuli to quit. Some of the very strongest seek help on their own. Most never do unless "they hit rock bottom."

Plan B?

It's looking more and more like she can't quit by herself.

Glad you have Steve helping you. You were right to wait.

Space, I bet she really does love you. I don't think you need to worry about that. But, she does need help. I am glad she's got you helping her. You're above average. I wish we had more answers but we don't know everything. Keep your head up.

Hey, have you tried chanting, I understand there's these monks . . . . . .

SS

Speaking of monks...I remembered my new mantra;
Let Her Go, Let Her Go, Let Her Go, Let Her Go, Let Her.......

Okay, SC, I am not familiar with your entire story, but have been following this threat and 2Long's 2rmoil closely....I HAVE to know....why is WW visiting OM at a prison??????? Is he incarcerated???? For what????? And, if so, what the (*^^ is wrong with her????? BTW - hope you can make the Houston get together, I look forward to meeting you and the other Houstonian MB's

Brit's Brat
BS - 41
WH - 43
Son - 9 monhts
D-Day 1 - May 6
Recovery? I Think A ended July 15 when OW called our house and asked if I knew where WH was and got mad when I told her, yes, lying in bed next to me. OW hung up on WH after a few questions, including whether he planned to stay with me ("Yes" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )and whether he wanted to continue their R ("No" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). OW then left him a nasty voice mail that appears to have caused WH to come out of the fog.....Stay Tuned!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong>Okay, SC, I am not familiar with your entire story, but have been following this threat and 2Long's 2rmoil closely....I HAVE to know....why is WW visiting OM at a prison??????? Is he incarcerated???? For what????? And, if so, what the (*^^ is wrong with her????? BTW - hope you can make the Houston get together, I look forward to meeting you and the other Houstonian MB's
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOW! It's a long story...WW is visiting OM in prison because he's an inmate. About 8 more years to go in a conviction for conspiracy to distribute cocaine, and conspiracy to launder money.
As to what is wrong with her, beats me; you'll have to ask her. She must have a need for a "bad boy" 'cause I'm about as "good-boy" as they come!
I will try to make it to the reunion, and look forward to meeting you as well.

IF you're interested, LMK and I'll post links to some of my older threads...

Hey Space Guy, does he get conjugal visits where he's at???? Have to chuckle to myself - does she realize she may not be his only "lady"??? Or is he someone else's "lady"? Sorry, I just don't understand women (or men for that matter) who think that someone like this guy is worth their time. With 8 years left in prison, it sounds as if this A will die it's own death if you give it time. How did she meet him? I would like to read your other threads because she's worse that my WH who was having his A with a girl he knew growing up in the UK (yes, that's why I have the nickname that I do). She still lives there and we live here in Houston (on the north west side by Compaq).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>My W just called again;
She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? Is it a show? Did something happen and is it real? Questions without answers...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are keeping a journal of some sort with this kind of stuff logged in it.

At some point in time in the future I would LOVE to know the answers to these questions myself!!!

WHAT is she thinking as she walks out of prison after visiting LOSER-guy just to call you with all these happy affirmations. DUH.

OK, so she calls, then nothing, then calls back 5 hours later......

HOW LONG can her visit be? HOW LONG is the drive "there" from where she is staying.

BTW - I live in FL.....which prison is he in? Maybe I'm close by and can "tail her" for ya?!?!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stillseeking hit the nail on the head with the addiction. I also would like to add that when you "get high" or start drinking it is natural to feel "high", giddy, good, full of joy, love... She got her "fix". Thank God he is in prison. A lot of marriages have a better sex life WHEN the A is going on! for the same reasons...sick hugh? it makes it doubley hard for the BS.

Steve is coming back on the 22nd right?

When is your wife coming back?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SS: Space, I bet she really does love you. I don't think you need to worry about that. But, she does need help. I am glad she's got you helping her. You're above average. I wish we had more answers but we don't know everything. Keep your head up.

Hey, have you tried chanting, I understand there's these monks . . . . . .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds fairly positive, maybe I just want to hear it some more to make sure, but why do you reach these conclusions?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong>Hey Space Guy, does he get conjugal visits where he's at???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No he doesn't, and even if he were eligible, she'd have to prove she's married to him; girlfriends don't count.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Have to chuckle to myself - does she realize she may not be his only "lady"??? Or is he someone else's "lady"? Sorry, I just don't understand women (or men for that matter) who think that someone like this guy is worth their time. With 8 years left in prison, it sounds as if this A will die it's own death if you give it time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't asked her if she's the only "lady", but she may not be. And you're right, BB, HE may be someone's "lady" for all I know, or care...
You would think that this A would be highly unlikely, impossible, would end easily...but here we are, closing in on 2 years that I know of, with her M hanging in the balance, with 5-6 ddays on it, and it's still going on, and she's still hiding it, and traveling to FL to see him...so if I just wait around for it to end, my grandchildren might be born before I'm out of Plan A! LOL!!! TOO scary a thought! Please!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
How did she meet him? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She dated him when she was 15-16 years old, nearly 28 years ago! I understand they "hooked" up again Nov. 2000, but I've been suspecting for some time that they were in touch long before that. Maybe one day I'll know...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I would like to read your other threads because she's worse that my WH who was having his A with a girl he knew growing up in the UK (yes, that's why I have the nickname that I do). She still lives there and we live here in Houston (on the north west side by Compaq). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The links to other threads are below.
Life is crazy, and WSs make it even crazier! I can't imagine having a relationship with someone on the other side of the world, OR on the other side of a prison wall!!! Maybe there's some hidden need for "impossible dreams"...I'm too tired to try to understand, I just want it to be over...one way or another.

Affairs that don't end....confused...HELP@!

Affairs that don't end...Episode II...HELP@!

There's more, but this should keep you entertained for several days. Glad you find this so fascinating! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I'm sorry I sound so down and dejected, I'm tired, very, very tired and 11 months of this torture have taken their toll on me. I need a vacation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey SC, maybe YOU need some sleep, too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>I hope you are keeping a journal of some sort with this kind of stuff logged in it.

At some point in time in the future I would LOVE to know the answers to these questions myself!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm actually not keeping a log, but I have EXTENSIVE threads, letters, files, and so much "snooping" material, I'll probably be able to write a book about it!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
WHAT is she thinking as she walks out of prison after visiting LOSER-guy just to call you with all these happy affirmations. DUH.

OK, so she calls, then nothing, then calls back 5 hours later......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the routine...no cells allowed in prison, so it's almost pathetically easy to know the timeframes she was there by her cell bill. Otherwise, it pretty much is on-line ALL the time.

She REALLY believes I don't know. It's Frigging amazing! The things she does, the ease with which I can find out stuff...and she thinks she can just call like that, and everythings just peachy! Well, I must admit she DID get away with it a couple of times...but you know what they say, a soldier forewarned does not in battle die.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
HOW LONG can her visit be? HOW LONG is the drive "there" from where she is staying.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have the visiting schedule somewhere, but it's pretty much all day every day except Mondays. And they can stay inside all day, unless there's too many visitors and they have to clear some out before letting others in. THAT never happens!

They have a visiting area with tables and vending machines, and a yard where they can visit outside, smoke, etc. There's all kinds of rules about dress (No tight, sexy stuff), kissing and stuff like that is only permitted at the start and end of the visit, bla, bla, bla...it's endless. I wonder how much of it is actually enforced?!?!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
BTW - I live in FL.....which prison is he in? Maybe I'm close by and can "tail her" for ya?!?!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this sounds interesting...the prison is in central FL, town called Coleman, 40 or so miles north-west of Orlando. She flies into South FL; Miami or Ft Lauderdale, then drive up. TOO obvious to buy tickets to Orlando...but she DID do that several times...