</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stillseeking hit the nail on the head with the addiction. I also would like to add that when you "get high" or start drinking it is natural to feel "high", giddy, good, full of joy, love... She got her "fix". Thank God he is in prison. A lot of marriages have a better sex life WHEN the A is going on! for the same reasons...sick hugh? it makes it doubley hard for the BS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks ILuv...I REALLY didn't need to hear that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>Steve is coming back on the 22nd right?

When is your wife coming back?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve's back on the 22nd, my W comes back on the 21st, and we have an apptmt on the 23rd...BUT I doubt we'll both be able to make it. More like I'll take the apptmt to strategize with Steve, and do a joint one the week after...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Hey SC, maybe YOU need some sleep, too!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO S--T!
I swear, these AD's better start working soon, or I'm going to change from spacecase into basketcase <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...LOL!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>Great job on the notes SC! I think she had rationalized going to see OM because she is so angry and unhappy. NOW she knows you are not the cause of the anger and unhappiness. You definately gave her something to think about. NOW if she goes, she must take full responsibility for her actions. She can't blame you AT ALL!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ILuv, this is a VERY interesting observation. Do you think this is pretty accurate, I mean are you pretty sure about this or is it speculation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>SC,
What I meant about your empathy for her actions as an Illness, was that, IMHO, you still need to be very firm on certain things, that may initially seem mean – like the plan B thing --That is even though she is in this fog or zone or this "sickness" of sorts, and does not fully understand the stupidity of her actions, she non the less will have to accept the responsibility for these actions. Like Plan B for example. I was trying to say don't let your emphathy turn into sympathy. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha. I was not sure what you meant. You are right; I have been VERY reluctant to place ANY boundaries, much less enforce them for quite some time. Since we started Cing with Steve, HE has really been the "bad guy" and he's the one placing her in this position of accepting responsibility, being accountable, etc.
I suspect this will pass over to me as she gains more trust that I will not hammer her with it, and that I'm doing it out of love, not revenge.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Again, we are amateurs here, but most things I read with this kind of "out of control" behavior, the person acting out just does not want to change – this is like their drug of choice; it fills a certain void –Attention w/o real intimacy for example. They may very well have to feel severe consequences before they are shocked into reality, to change – this I believe is the confrontation you refer to with Steve as the moderator – Super idea!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct. And it's interesting that you'd use the example of Attention w/o real intimacy. I have believed something like that had to be a need of hers since he's in prison, so the physical contact is very, very limited, sexual contact impossible, so all that is left is conversation, attention.

And yes; the confrontation is necessary because over the last 11 months she has "avoided" facing the reality of her actions by staging very major fireworks every time I have caught her lying. She has screamed and hollered about her privacy, and that I have no right, and all this, and never really faced the facts; she was lying, here's the proof. So, in order to help her feel "safe" with me (since she considered these "invasions of privacy" such dangerous and vengeful acts), the decision was made to stop doing them for some time, work on the assumption that she's telling the truth, help her gain some knowledge, understanding, trust in Steve, etc. and then, if necessary confront again, this time with Steve's intervention so as to make HIM the bad guy, and perhaps elicit the response we're looking for; acceptance, acknowledgement of responsibility, remorse, etc. rather than again avoiding the issue by throwing a tantrum.
Hope this explains the rationale for so many of these delicate decisions along the way; this is why it was not good to confront immediately, we've been setting this up for months, and even though there was considerable merit and power to an immediate confrontation, it would have ruined all this work, and there was less guarantee that it would work. Not that we're sure THIS way WILL work...but you see my point.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This scenario would also go with the idea of “hitting bottom” I referred to. Where with a confrontation, her secret is out – all her lies are uncovered for what they are – her credibility as a truthful person is shot! All not pleasant things, but perhaps very necessary in order to bring her out of this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Entirely correct. If she can just let go of this "thing" she's carrying, and see it will bring her good, not harm, then maybe she'll pull herself out of whare she's been and start living in reality.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now along these lines – perhaps some might say mean spirited here, but when you talk with her about her day, would it not be somewhat natural for you to casually ask her about her plans for the day or if at the end of the day, to ask how her day went. Like, tell me, "what all did you do today?" ---In a word, force her to lie, make her dig herslef deeper & deeper, otherwise, I am concerned she may still be able to swirm her way out of a confesson!! It seems if you are trying to flush this big elephant out into the open, this might help – perhaps she is forced to come clean – if not, she will be lying, still again & this provides still further evidence as to how deep she is into this game – more ammunition for the confrontation day – It would really lock in or confirm (if nothing else, but for Steve's perspective!) her ability to lie to you. Could you tape this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think this is really necessary. We have all we need, and this time it's just impossible to explain away. We don't want to have to demean her any more than necessary either.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In so many words, I believe she will have to eventually feel the fever (heat) before she seeks any solutions – It sounds like she has a pretty good ability to resist a lot of the heat – deflect and/or ignore the existence of any problems – a fever, so to speak.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does. But remember we have backed off from almost ANY type of confrontation or pressure, or snooping, or questioning for several months, so when we bring this out, it'll be a shock. She has come to believe that we DO believe her, that we have fallen for her tricks, that she's safe. So she feels like she's able to stand the heat. And when this comes out, all of that comfort and security will vanish.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
How you described the interaction with your D and the family, in general sounds pretty healthy – I would still be cautious – I assume you have discussed at some length this topic with your counselor or Steve. I am way out of the water on this one- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I have some dysfunction’s here – I was raised to sweep things under the rug – ignore problems, to not confront – this is why I am such a co-dependent at times.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We really have not discussed this with a counselor or Steve. This is one area where we have had agreement forever with my W. Our kids will not be shielded from reality or treated like porcelain objects, protected from all possible evil. They will grow up seeing reality, with their parents there to help explain and guide, but with a very strong sense of morals, right and wrong, reality and fiction. (Of course they now might question my W's morals, but that's another issue, I guess). In any case, we have always done this and there was no reason to stop now. I feel it is better for them to know, to know that their parents might divorce, that we have problems and conflict like everyone else, and that life requires persistance, values, hard work, tough decisions, crying, fighting, and all the other realities.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Did I understand you correctly, that you were discussing your W having A’s with your D? And your W knows about these discussions?
I also agree with others, you may have contributed to some marital problems, but you cannot take the responsibility of the A’s – that’s her doing!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am discussing my W's A with all my children; have from the start.

My wife knows this. She's not too happy because she wanted me to not tell them she's lied, but I have NEVER lied to them, and I wasn't about to start now, much less to protect the guilty. But she also now knows that I have been completely fair. Not even a possibility of trying to influence or gain advantage, or use them against her, NOTHING like that at all. All my faults have been just as openly aired and discussed. We've laughed and cried together, and we've all supported each other as we've felt pain.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Are you still reading Dobson’s book? Any thoughts here?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, just starting on Love is Tough. I'll comment when I'm further into it.
Thanks for your insight!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks ILuv...I REALLY didn't need to hear that!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey! Don't shoot the messenger okay?!

I do think my other message is accurate. The WS has to rationalize in their brain somehow that what their doing is not too bad. The natural target is to blame the BS. I feel kinda sorry for her in a way. IF she ever really wakes up and is willing to do the work (and I think she will) she's just making it harder on herself by her own denial. I think she will wake up, look in the mirror and hate what she sees.

I wasn't shooting the messenger...I thanked you!

I love the way you have this almost uncanny ability to descipher the meaning or possible meaning of these bizzare actions...thanks, really, thanks very much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Speaking of sleep...

I struggled with Insomnia for a year. Lack of sleep really messes with your ability to think clearly and it is Horrible for your health. Get your dr. to perscribe a sleeping pill.

There are 2 different kinds I would take. If I struggled for a couple days with sleep I would take an over the counter pill at 8:00 and be knocked out all night - BUT felt great in the morning. My dr. also perscribed Sonata, which gives you a good 4 hour sleep. Its for if you wake up at 2:00 and can't go back to sleep. I still take them about 4 times a month. But for an entire year I was on them VERY regularly. Being addicted to sleeping pills is usually a big fear but it is BETTER than not sleeping!!!!!

Hey, SC,

I saw soemthing in your post this morning that I had not seen earlier.

You said your W has known this *joker* since age 15/16? They were kinda in puppy love? If so, then this *tragic* event which has him in jail, and "unable" to totally show his love for her is fueling this thing. My c asked me very early on (since it was soooo out of character for H to do anything like this) if this was "his first love" that we left me for.....she warned that "first love" is so strong, it makes "normal people" do very unusual things. That "first love" thingy is verrrrrrry strong, constant pull back to it, IF they resurface. That's why these "Look Up Old Classmates" websites are so dangerous.

Secondly, coincidentally, I'm going to Orlando tomorrow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> However, I will be with three other people, and attending seminar all day, so no chance to "tail" her, but I definitely WOULD!!

OK, 3 hour drive up, hmmmm, interesting points here. She COULD be with him all day, but only spends a couple of hours (at most)? Hmmmm, how much ya wanna bet he does have other "girlfriends" (or maybe HIS girlfriends in jail get jealous!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So he tells her she must leave now?

It's SOOOOMe kind of relationship they have!!! She's risking her MARRIAGE and children for that?!?!?! Amazing.

You're doing good, SC, under most trying circumstances.

God Bless,

Well, my W's calls last night and this morning were back to her more usual "distant" self. Very matter-of-fact, what's new, the kids, her stuff I'm taking care of, no ILY's, no thanks....just bizzare.

No wonder BSs get paranoid, confused and dejected...there's no method to the madness.

I've gotten thru about 1/3 of Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. I must say that the main impression I've gotten is that apart from the details, it parallels Harley's methods pretty closely. Dobson does not break it down into the various steps Harley does, nor does he specify/recommend timelines, but in essence, it's very similar.

I did like his very compelling argument about <strong>Respect</strong> being the basic cornerstone of any relationship. Very clear, very direct, very true. It kind of cuts everything down to a simple and solid premise. Very good.

I also liked very much his description and justification for "detaching", doing a 180, making the WS "wonder"...a well-known tactic to all of us, but very concisely and clearly expressed by Dobson.

I also must make this comment; I am Jewish; and although I am a believer in judeo-christian principles, I am not a religious man, so the parts about prayer and such are somewhat distracting. While I respect religious conviction and the power of prayer for many, I, for one, don't necessarily feel that my actions must be somehow justified by the word of the bible to be valid. No disrespect intended at all. Just expressing my feelings, while fully respecting those of others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's just walked out from seeing the OM, and she calls me with this cheery, I love you call...so what do I make of it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stillseeking hit the nail on the head with the addiction. I also would like to add that when you "get high" or start drinking it is natural to feel "high", giddy, good, full of joy, love... She got her "fix". Thank God he is in prison. A lot of marriages have a better sex life WHEN the A is going on! for the same reasons...sick hugh? it makes it doubley hard for the BS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">{{{ SC }}}}
You have a great grasp of what you need to do & thank God you have a support team with Steve & all! You are coping very well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
This is the exact thing I have been referring to with your W's "sickness" -- And I remind you, this is "her" sickness -- it is not your fault!!
And I concur with the discussion about her anger - it is like a cycle she puts herself in -- feels sorry for herself, builds up guilt feelings & the like, then she gets this "outside" release of sorts that gives her this euphoric feeling and pleasure; then guilt & shame comes back into the picture & this starts the cyle all over! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Now "our" sickness is that we can either ignore or obcess about our S's sickness & that is not healthy for us -- again, you seem to be getting a good gripe here, so keep up the good work!
I know this sounds terrible & it may definately not apply exactly, but a lot of what we are describing here about your W is very similar to a sexaholic -- I know it does not seem sexual as such and so perhaps this is not an accurate diagnois, as such (and we are not qualified to make diagnois anyway!), but this joyous feeling and all after contact is not appropiate & whatever we care to call it or not call it, it is a sickness. Something to think about -- a lot of people (mostly guys, it seems) that have confirmed problems with controling thier lust -- lustful thoughs even, primarily get their "fix" from Porn -- no actual contact with another person -- it is not the actual acts of Se* that define this condition as much as the lack of control over inappropiate, lustful thoughts and actions. They have a compulsion for an unhealthy, unnatural, thirst for lust, not love! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Again, this is not your fault and perhaps this is not an issue with your W - that is not the point, but your recovery and your Children's recovery from this, may need a similar aproach -- I am referring to "S-anon" -- Like Alonon -- this is for friends & family members -- This kind of thing is a "Family" matter.
Like I said before, I do not have a strong idea as to what is best in terms of sharing with children, but I would encourage you to ask Steve --
Seeing what their M is doing & perhaps just as important, seeing you and how you are coping -- how you protect your rights and feelings as a valuable, worthy, loveable being! I DON'T KNOW, BUT I could SEE WHERE THEY COULD very well get their value system a little wacked out! Their sens of what is right & fair & their sense self worth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> This is very difficult stuff to comprehend & to develop ideas as to the best & most healthy ways to cope with such events can be quite tramatising. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
No matter what you say or teach, it is your actions that speak the loudist at times.
Think about this -- you are a very good Father & demonstrate good values and have great commnication -- open about sensative issues - teaching them a lot about difficulites of life -- but you must admit this is very delicate stuff & even with our worldly experince, we have extreme difficulty processing these acts of betrayal & deceit & non loving acts against the family -- We know full well these are not acts against the children, but we also know that many times children (of all ages) can be deeply effected and even internalize this as partially thier fault!
I am not trying to scare you or make rash judements here, but I just wonder if they could benefit from some professional help as well? -- Just my Humble Opinion! -- A S-anon kind of program can be a form of self-help in this kind of seneorio --
One last thought, perception - we have a sense that family members of Alcoholic's can have have serious emotional, socialization, dysfuntional kinds of problems -- this "need to cheat" kind of thing your W is going through can have similar effects on the family --
I'll get off of my soap box now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
My prayers are with you!
HH

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

SC:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my W's calls last night and this morning were back to her more usual "distant" self. Very matter-of-fact, what's new, the kids, her stuff I'm taking care of, no ILY's, no thanks....just bizzare.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got this kind of stuff when my wife was active in the affair. Harley likens affairs to chemical addictions, and in some cases the parallels are remarkable. My wife would come back from visiting the OM "high", but then crash a few hours later. I vividly remember one episode after she returned from a visit (it was just after new years). She came in all 'aglow'---which of course did nothing good for me. I really felt incredibly depressed. But then later in that evening, she started to discuss our future (like the affair was over), and played with the kids like she hadn't in ages--and we had a terrific evening together.

I recognized it for what it was---a manic swing. When you learn to detach yourself from it and not take it personally, but to view it more as a mental illness (even if it is somewhat 'self-induced'), you'll find it easier to take. I'm not saying that this is exactly what's going on with your wife, but I'd caution you not to read too much with the mood swings, other than to expect that the affair probably continues. On the other hand, if she comes home and crashes for a couple of weeks straight---you can guess that she's going through withdrawal and the affair has probably been 'ended'.

And I'll say a prayer for you, regardless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But behaviorally speaking, you need to keep yourself relatively even-keeled about this, while your wife's emotions bounce all over the map.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>Hey, SC,

I saw soemthing in your post this morning that I had not seen earlier.

You said your W has known this *joker* since age 15/16? They were kinda in puppy love? If so, then this *tragic* event which has him in jail, and "unable" to totally show his love for her is fueling this thing. My c asked me very early on (since it was soooo out of character for H to do anything like this) if this was "his first love" that we left me for.....she warned that "first love" is so strong, it makes "normal people" do very unusual things. That "first love" thingy is verrrrrrry strong, constant pull back to it, IF they resurface. That's why these "Look Up Old Classmates" websites are so dangerous.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to tell you the truth, and this is something I have NEVER said in "public", my W and I met when we were 13 years old or so, at one of my cousins' weddings. W was best friends with this cousin's youger sister. And we had a "puppy love" as you call it. We kept in touch, even though we lived in different towns, but we got several opportunities to meet over the following years. On one of those occasions we ended up having s-x, it was my first time, and as far as I've ever known, her first time as well. It certainly was nothing to write home about, actually pretty scary, but that's what happened.

Over the next few years we stayed in touch, but ended up being away from each other for several years, and we each went our own way. We kept in touch occasionally, made plans that never came to fruition, and parted ways. It wasn't until we were about 20-21 that we hooked up again in a serious way, after her first short-lived marriage, and we got married at 22.

I guess my point is that all of this history may have left some bitter feelings for her about me, perhaps long-held dreams of the kind teens have as young loves, and perhaps some of those she held onto and I obviously was never able to fulfill, and thus she may have built resentment for...just a thought. But possible, right?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Secondly, coincidentally, I'm going to Orlando tomorrow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> However, I will be with three other people, and attending seminar all day, so no chance to "tail" her, but I definitely WOULD!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks! My sincere hope is that there will never again be a need to "tail" her there, but if there is, I just may make the call!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
OK, 3 hour drive up, hmmmm, interesting points here. She COULD be with him all day, but only spends a couple of hours (at most)? Hmmmm, how much ya wanna bet he does have other "girlfriends" (or maybe HIS girlfriends in jail get jealous!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So he tells her she must leave now?

It's SOOOOMe kind of relationship they have!!! She's risking her MARRIAGE and children for that?!?!?! Amazing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm not sure about any of this. It could be she doesn't want to risk being incommunicado for too long and raise more suspicions, it could be that they had many visitors and sent some home early, or it could be some of what you mention...no idea, and I don't imagine I'll ever know.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You're doing good, SC, under most trying circumstances.

God Bless, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you think so; sometimes I'm not so sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thank you, HH.
I will take your advice about help for the kids to heart, consult with Steve, and get them help if necessary.

Like you say; one never knows what may come of this for them, and how they may be affected, and I would not venture to believe that all I have done is right or not potentially hurtful/damaging to them.

HH:

"Now along these lines – perhaps some might say mean spirited here, but when you talk with her about her day, would it not be somewhat natural for you to casually ask her about her plans for the day or if at the end of the day, to ask how her day went. Like, tell me, "what all did you do today?" ---In a word, force her to lie, make her dig herslef deeper & deeper, otherwise, I am concerned she may still be able to swirm her way out of a confesson!! "

I personally don't think this will work. I think that it will more than likely just repoint the bricks in the wall and make it more impervious to breaking down. I've tried this with my W, in a way, and it definitely doesn't help my cause, it just makes the barriers between us all that much harder to break through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS: Space, I bet she really does love you. I don't think you need to worry about that. But, she does need help. I am glad she's got you helping her. You're above average. I wish we had more answers but we don't know everything. Keep your head up. Hey, have you tried chanting, I understand there's these monks . . . . . .

This sounds fairly positive, maybe I just want to hear it some more to make sure, but why do you reach these conclusions? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I bet she really does love you

She is changing. Early on, she fought at every chance. Your depiction of her has changed, I don't think it's just your description changing. She apologized, you wondered if it was real. That apology doesn't fit in any other context. Before she would have never done it, at least from what you describe, she would have been more likely to have said - " up yours."

I have read you from the beginning, I started lurking in Late January or early Feb but didn't post until May. I am comparing your case to all the others I have read, and reading is, always has been a hobby of mine. I have gone back in the archives and read many long threads. It just feels like she is coming closer. That's why I used the addict comparison. Many addicts shed tears over what they do to their family, they really care. Even while they are in the middle, they wish they could stop. They ask "why am I doing this." Then never have an answer. Dreamland brought out a few weeks ago that they make a conscious decision to do what they do. True, but like the addict, it is not a rational decision, and they can never explain why they do it. ( see "K's" post about it) Later when it is over, they often ask over and over, " Why did I do that?" And say things like, " I must have been insane." I believe one day your wife will be there. I can't give all the reasons, it's just my take after following your posts since the start.

I think the on again, off again behavior is her fighting the problem. She tries to get out, but falls back in. She has many years of ingrained behavior to over come. She needs help.
I think that's why you should stick with Steve like glue. Could he make mistakes? Yes, but he can also make corrections. And I suspect he is better at it than you or I.

you are above average

Perhaps you didn't want this one analyzed, but here goes anyway. I have made it a point not to say things I don't mean. My own conversations with my W and children have made this so. I was not just trying to be kind. You have come here, accepted counseling, read the material, done the homework. When you get good advice, you try to do it, not just give lip service. I think you still have some things to improve on. We ( I and others) have discussed care and protection before, and you still are not perfect, but you are above average. Perhaps one flaw that sometimes creeps into your reasoning is something like this, " I have made all these improvements, so she should quit A and come back and take care of me, and everything should be perfect."

It may be true, but we can't count on the addict reacting that way. And you still need improvement, that's what you should still be devoting much of your time and attention to. How can I say this? I just look at myself as the yardstick. I watch you, 2long and others and we all get caught up in what "she" is doing and forget to watch what "we" are doing. HOWEVER, you are still above average.

I hope this helps.
SS

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>I got this kind of stuff when my wife was active in the affair. Harley likens affairs to chemical addictions, and in some cases the parallels are remarkable. My wife would come back from visiting the OM "high", but then crash a few hours later. I vividly remember one episode after she returned from a visit (it was just after new years). She came in all 'aglow'---which of course did nothing good for me. I really felt incredibly depressed. But then later in that evening, she started to discuss our future (like the affair was over), and played with the kids like she hadn't in ages--and we had a terrific evening together.

I recognized it for what it was---a manic swing. When you learn to detach yourself from it and not take it personally, but to view it more as a mental illness (even if it is somewhat 'self-induced'), you'll find it easier to take. I'm not saying that this is exactly what's going on with your wife, but I'd caution you not to read too much with the mood swings, other than to expect that the affair probably continues. On the other hand, if she comes home and crashes for a couple of weeks straight---you can guess that she's going through withdrawal and the affair has probably been 'ended'.

And I'll say a prayer for you, regardless... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But behaviorally speaking, you need to keep yourself relatively even-keeled about this, while your wife's emotions bounce all over the map.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, K
This is something I definitely need to internalize and learn to recognize better, because it has been happening all along.

She'll be loving, happy, talk about the future, plans, etc. and then revert to being a wall; sometimes bitter and hateful. And these "swings" go on all the time.

When it's good, I feel like we're making progress, that perhaps she's "getting it", and then I am again thrown down when it goes back to her lee friendly self.

I will try to internalize and learn to recognize your analysis of what this may be. Perhaps by doing that I'll be able to avoid letting this bring me up and down so much.

I posted just above yours about previous quotes.
SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>HH:

"Now along these lines – perhaps some might say mean spirited here, but when you talk with her about her day, would it not be somewhat natural for you to casually ask her about her plans for the day or if at the end of the day, to ask how her day went. Like, tell me, "what all did you do today?" ---In a word, force her to lie, make her dig herslef deeper & deeper, otherwise, I am concerned she may still be able to swirm her way out of a confesson!! "

I personally don't think this will work. I think that it will more than likely just repoint the bricks in the wall and make it more impervious to breaking down. I've tried this with my W, in a way, and it definitely doesn't help my cause, it just makes the barriers between us all that much harder to break through.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with 2L here. When I start asking too much, she feels cornered, angry, and loses "trust" in me...it just does not work.

I have what I need to confront, and if that doesn't work, it's Plan B...I've done all I can.

SC:

"Well, my W's calls last night and this morning were back to her more usual "distant" self. Very matter-of-fact, what's new, the kids, her stuff I'm taking care of, no ILY's, no thanks....just bizzare."

Maybe she ran out of love notes!! Sorry for the sarcasm, but it just might be the reason. OR, that tactic WORKED, and she's starting to think. We can hope (but I've learned to be careful with hope!).