</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>HH:

...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with 2L here. When I start asking too much, she feels cornered, angry, and loses "trust" in me...it just does not work.

I have what I need to confront, and if that doesn't work, it's Plan B...I've done all I can.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good Points -- I can see your views & concur -better to focus on self & not obcess on S, withwhom we cannot control anyway!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS:

"It may be true, but we can't count on the addict reacting that way. And you still need improvement, that's what you should still be devoting much of your time and attention to. How can I say this? I just look at myself as the yardstick. I watch you, 2long and others and we all get caught up in what "she" is doing and forget to watch what "we" are doing. HOWEVER, you are still above average."

I feel pretty average, at best, myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

I certainly don't take offense by that, either. I realized in the past few days, more than ever, that this "problem" we're all dealing with is FAR BIGGER and difficult to overcome than I would have ever realized, or even can realize at the moment, because I haven't made it through the struggle successfully yet. That's going to take a helluva lot more homework on my part, THEN the experience, and hopefully the SUCCESSFUL repair of my M, to fully learn. I gues that's why everybody says that Ms are often stronger and the intimacy closer after an A. Not because As are a "good thing" to put spark back into a M, but because the successful couples have put the effort into making the "new" M that much better than the old one.

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong> I bet she really does love you -

She is changing. Early on, she fought at every chance. Your depiction of her has changed, I don't think it's just your description changing. She apologized, you wondered if it was real. That apology doesn't fit in any other context. Before she would have never done it, at least from what you describe, she would have been more likely to have said - " up yours." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're right. She HAS made some changes, and I have noticed tham and told her so.
However, after so many deceptions, I am very very skeptical of them. The apology, for instance; I feel that she was following Steve's request to do that, but I am very doubtful that she really means it, as she has been almost entirely unable or unwilling to back up the words with actions.

I don't deny that this is the start, and that those actions may be coming, so I am just being cautiously optimistic. Trust, but verify.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I have read you from the beginning, I started lurking in Late January or early Feb but didn't post until May. I am comparing your case to all the others I have read, and reading is, always has been a hobby of mine. I have gone back in the archives and read many long threads. It just feels like she is coming closer. That's why I used the addict comparison. Many addicts shed tears over what they do to their family, they really care. Even while they are in the middle, they wish they could stop. They ask "why am I doing this." Then never have an answer. Dreamland brought out a few weeks ago that they make a conscious decision to do what they do. True, but like the addict, it is not a rational decision, and they can never explain why they do it. ( see "K's" post about it) Later when it is over, they often ask over and over, " Why did I do that?" And say things like, " I must have been insane." I believe one day your wife will be there. I can't give all the reasons, it's just my take after following your posts since the start. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I still have hope that this will someday happen. Otherwise I would no longer be here trying. I think what is on my mind these days about this is whether it will happen in time to save our M or if it will happen after I'm long gone...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think the on again, off again behavior is her fighting the problem. She tries to get out, but falls back in. She has many years of ingrained behavior to over come. She needs help.
I think that's why you should stick with Steve like glue. Could he make mistakes? Yes, but he can also make corrections. And I suspect he is better at it than you or I. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. I recognize it as such, and I do trust steve quite a bit. He's been the only one who gets through to her, and she really likes him. I'm not going to give him up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
you are above average

Perhaps you didn't want this one analyzed, but here goes anyway. I have made it a point not to say things I don't mean. My own conversations with my W and children have made this so. I was not just trying to be kind. You have come here, accepted counseling, read the material, done the homework. When you get good advice, you try to do it, not just give lip service. I think you still have some things to improve on. We ( I and others) have discussed care and protection before, and you still are not perfect, but you are above average. Perhaps one flaw that sometimes creeps into your reasoning is something like this, " I have made all these improvements, so she should quit A and come back and take care of me, and everything should be perfect." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been quite conscious of this. I think that I have almost set myself some boundaries beyond which I have been reluctant to go in terms of giving more, doing more, sacrificing more. It's like OK, I get what I have to do, I will do this much, and not do more until I see some positive reaction to it.
I have discussed this with steve, and he says that is absolutely normal and he knows this.
I think it's a matter of self-respect; there are some things I will simply not do to regain my M; at some point even a very giving and self-sacrificial person will reach their limit and say "no more". In many areas, I feel I've reached that limit. Not that Steve hasn't convinced me to go a little further, on several occasions he has and I have done it.
It becomes an internal struggle between self-respect and desired outcome; what price are you willing to pay?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It may be true, but we can't count on the addict reacting that way. And you still need improvement, that's what you should still be devoting much of your time and attention to. How can I say this? I just look at myself as the yardstick. I watch you, 2long and others and we all get caught up in what "she" is doing and forget to watch what "we" are doing. HOWEVER, you are still above average.

I hope this helps.
SS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I accept that. I know I can be hard-headed too, and I'm results-oriented, and with this I've had to fight that quite a bit.
I feel like so much of my W's justification and blame for the A are so far out of whack with reality, that there simply is a point beyond which I will not go in validating those positions. There is a point at which there must be some reciprocal change in position for me to be able to go to the next step.

Nonetheless, I AM conscious of this, and I do not make this an unmovable posture. I know I need to learn more, and I accept it, and I do it. Sometimes reluctantly, sometimes on blind faith in Steve, but I do it. And it is clearly something that I have to keep working on; ME.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"Well, my W's calls last night and this morning were back to her more usual "distant" self. Very matter-of-fact, what's new, the kids, her stuff I'm taking care of, no ILY's, no thanks....just bizzare."

Maybe she ran out of love notes!! Sorry for the sarcasm, but it just might be the reason. OR, that tactic WORKED, and she's starting to think. We can hope (but I've learned to be careful with hope!).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I've learned not to try to understand everything...in time maybe I will, but I doubt it!

I think you're right. She HAS made some changes, and I have noticed them and told her so.
However, after so many deceptions, I am very very skeptical of them. The apology, for instance; I feel that she was following Steve's request to do that, but I am very doubtful that she really means it, as she has been almost entirely unable or unwilling to back up the words with actions.

Addicts almost never by them selves ( without getting help) back up their words with actions.
They say they are sorry, and they are, but they go right back to their problem. They do it over, and over and over again. They hide it, lie, protest they don't have a problem. When confronted, some say they HAD a problem, but it's over. And they keep doing it.

Fits, doesn't it.

That doesn't mean she needs to be protected from the consequences of her actions, but it is predictable behavior and it DOES NOT mean she doesn't love you. I suppose that is my main point.

No, I agree it may be time for B, and she may not make it, but I think all the signs point to her loving you.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:

Addicts almost never by them selves ( without getting help) back up their words with actions.
They say they are sorry, and they are, but they go right back to their problem. They do it over, and over and over again. They hide it, lie, protest they don't have a problem. When confronted, some say they HAD a problem, but it's over. And they keep doing it.

Fits, doesn't it.

That doesn't mean she needs to be protected from the consequences of her actions, but it is predictable behavior and it DOES NOT mean she doesn't love you. I suppose that is my main point.

No, I agree it may be time for B, and she may not make it, but I think all the signs point to her loving you.

SS[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does fit. Almost too well for my comfort.

And SS, I did NOT mean to sound like I question her love for me. I KNOW she loves me very much. That's a great part of why I still have faith and why I'm still here trying as hard as I am.

Space,

When is your W coming back home? You're sounding quite grounded and focused! Are you still going to the MB weekend? CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

When is your W coming back home? You're sounding quite grounded and focused! Are you still going to the MB weekend? CSue</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi CSue!
WW comes home Sunday; I'm not too happy though, the joy, ILYs and niceness of the first couple of days of her trip were totally absent today. Dry, matter-of-fact, and no ILY, not even a "me too" after I said it...I won't even TRY to figure this out.

My dad is visiting all next week, and that'll make ANY kind of interaction difficult until he's gone next Saturday (week from tomorrow).

I have an apptmt w/Steve on Tues which I will do by myself, probably from the car with my dad...so we can discuss recent events, confrontation, strategy.

What I think we need to do is to confront her with the evidence of continued contact and her visit there this week, and see if we can get a confession/decision to end it/comittment to rebuild. IF we can, and I sincerely doubt it, then I'd go with her to the MB Weekend.

IF she doesn't, I'm pretty sure it'd be time for Plan B for me, and I don't see how we could do the MB weekend. I certainly do no want to go to that unless she's at least committed to ending/NC/rebuilding.

Otherwise, what's the point? I mean what's the point of Cing w/Steve if she's still lying even to him and continues contact? What's real about what she says/does? What is her level of commitment? I think it's pretty worthless if all she's doing is to "play along" with no real "meat" behind her words and actions. Steve had told her "You know that if you're still lying that will be your downfall" and she said "I know"...well, she has been, and now we have evidence...wish it weren't so.

Don't know what Steve will say, but I'll tell you; I will strongly resist any further delay to a confrontation and going to the MB weekend w/o "real" committment from her.

Thoughts?

Sorry to interject here, SC, but I am hoping for all the moral support I can get tonight.

I'm on a 14400 connection from a hotel phone, so I'll probably be slow to respond, but I'll be up and hoping others are as well, for quite a while.

I spent most of the day today with my father, and we had a very long talk about my marriage, my wife, and the situation.

As I was going through it all, explaining it to him, the process, MB, Plan A, Plan B, recent events, etc. two feelings began to come to me very strongly.

First, that I have very, very little hope left that there is any chance of a true or near true MB recovery for us. I just do not see how it may be possible for my W, with all she's done, with her strong-headedness, her furious determination, and her reluctance to end this after all we've been through, to ever truly embrace most of the principles and apply them. I just don't see that as possible.

And the second feeling I got was that I really am ready to leave her. I've reached that point where I'm ready to leave her. Where I really no longer need her.

And this feeling, this realization brought me the greatest sadness I've ever felt in my life.

That here we are, after 20 years of marriage, 3 wonderful children, and all that is left of this M is a WW with no desire to leave the OM and no indication of being any closer to getting it or of having any desire to change. And a BS who is exhausted, without much hope, and who is ready to move on. Not much, is it? How very, very sad...

SC:

I don't know if you feel like I do right now, but it sounds like it.

In your case, I sure hope it isn't because of the convo with your dad. Relatives can mean well but unintentionally do harm, as you know.

I'm sad, too. But I'm also somewhat relieved, for the moment at least. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I don't know if you feel like I do right now, but it sounds like it.

In your case, I sure hope it isn't because of the convo with your dad. Relatives can mean well but unintentionally do harm, as you know.

I'm sad, too. But I'm also somewhat relieved, for the moment at least. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; I'll post on your thread, just catching up here today.

You know, it wasn't anything my dad said at all. It was my own mind/thinking as I talked to him about all of this. It was like the exercise of reviewing it all for him as I told the story, and all these things came together, defined some of what I'm feeling.

Space:

Feelings are not facts.

This may be how you FEEL today, but it doesn't mean that it is accurate or true.

I hardly think that Steve would be working so hard with you to keep you in the picture if this was true. He would tell you it was time to move on. And trust me, he will, if thats the case.

But he hasn't, so, I am going to go with the belief that you are on another dip of the rollercoaster.

Spacey ... just wanted to let you know I admire your efforts to CPR your M ... no matter what the outcome may eventually turn out to be .... YOU WILL KNOW YOU gave it your "all". I'm not saying you were/are/ever will be "perfect" ... (who is?) .. but you tried and tried ... and ... in the face of your own doubts and fears .... you tried again. Kudos to you.

I also wanted to let you know I admire your friendship with 2Long, and the sort-of buddy system you have nourished between you guys. Kudos again.

Walk tall. You are a man among men.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Space:

Feelings are not facts.

This may be how you FEEL today, but it doesn't mean that it is accurate or true.

I hardly think that Steve would be working so hard with you to keep you in the picture if this was true. He would tell you it was time to move on. And trust me, he will, if thats the case.

But he hasn't, so, I am going to go with the belief that you are on another dip of the rollercoaster.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BR; What I mean is not that I'm giving up, but that I am ready to move on if I am not able to resolve this.

I, too, trust Steve, and he still believes we have a chance. So I will go along with that. I DO want to make this work, I just don't feel like we have as much of a chance of success as I did some time ago. There are still a few moves we need to make, and I will be there wholeheartedly to make them. But we're coming to the last few moves, they will have to be soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Spacey ... just wanted to let you know I admire your efforts to CPR your M ... no matter what the outcome may eventually turn out to be .... YOU WILL KNOW YOU gave it your "all". I'm not saying you were/are/ever will be "perfect" ... (who is?) .. but you tried and tried ... and ... in the face of your own doubts and fears .... you tried again. Kudos to you.

I also wanted to let you know I admire your friendship with 2Long, and the sort-of buddy system you have nourished between you guys. Kudos again.

Walk tall. You are a man among men.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep; I will not give up on my M and my darling W until I've exhausted every possible option. I still love too much to shorth-change her and my family. But I'm ready to move on if I have to, and I have lost some hope that it's still possible for us to make it. But I will not give up yet!

2L; It's funny, we've never met, never shaken hands, and yet...it feel like we're old friends. Perhaps one day will WILL be old friends!

Thanks Pepper; you are a joy and a wonder to have around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, been hangin' around to see if 2L needed some cheering, but I guess he must be OK, and doing his 'thang' since he doesn't seem to be around...

So, back to my thoughts and my fears...the uncertainty.

My darling W returns tomorrow, and I almost feel bad, knowing what's coming and she's probably feeling like she's safe again after having visited the OM, and getting no indication from me that I knew...unless, of course, it is SHE who has a Blue-Meanie surprise for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Which is ALSO possible...

But seriously, I know this is all coming to some sort of climax and we will see if the denouement will be towards recovery or towards separation/divorce.

I'm comfortable that I have done everything I could do, not always to perfection or even close, but my maximum effort nonetheless. It will be 11 months since DDay next Thursday (7/26), with some very solid Plan A months, 2-3 months of Cing with Steve, and an enormous expenditure of blood, sweat, and tears...after this coming climax, the ball will be in her court and I pray that she will somehow be illuminated, inspired, awakened so that our family may have the hope of being a family again...Ohana, as Orchid has taught us.

Thank you all for your support and kind words of encouragement; I would not have made it this far without you.

I will beg of all my friends here at MB, for each of you in your own way, whether through prayer or thought, to help my darling wife make the right choices in the coming days. It will now be, truly, in G--s hands...

SC:

"2L; It's funny, we've never met, never shaken hands, and yet...it feel like we're old friends. Perhaps one day will WILL be old friends!"

Heck, SC, we're already friends, and give me a couple of years and I'll be OLD! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hang in there when your W comes home. I know the feeling you describe - I'd been getting to the point again where I actually felt a knot in my stomach as I approached the house, or heard her car coming up the hill...

I have a question. Since our Cs at Kaiser are such bumbleheaded knucklefeet, I'd like to try to get the BIG GUNS in on my problem. Would it be appropriate to continue with my IC and phone C with SH or Jenn? I doubt I could get my W on board any time soon (but would sure hope to), and so I'd be ICing with 2 Cs for a time. Is that Jake?

2L: I don't see any reason you can't have 2 C's. Steve/Jenn will be the very best guidance, and you can complement that with what you've already done with IC. You may reach a point where you drop one, and maybe one day your W will join you w/Steve/Jenn!

No issue there at all in my view!

<small>[ July 20, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>