</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>...don’t love someone that cannot love you back

there is a sometimes a strong human instinct for us to want something that is not easily obtainable</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,
I agree with HH on this point....I think the person telling you to "let it go" is basically saying the above to you.

Second point I wanted to make is, perhaps your WW is going through a certain "Withdrawal" of sorts, since she went there specifically to see OM. She couldn't get in, or maybe he is "rejecting" her? And now she has become depressed over it?

Just my thots.....

God Bless your tenacity.

I've been off all day and will be back later to reply to everyone, thanks! But here's at least the basics of my session with Steve:

Update; Session with Steve today.

I had my session with Steve today, w/o my W. I needed a session for myself after all the turmoil of last week, and the challenges facing us over the next few days.

I'll start with the end, which was very good, and extend Steve's congratulations to me and the forum for a well-taken decision and a generally perfect "Harley" response to the crisis. I honestly must say that without the forum's feedback, I probably would have made some mistakes, so I will only take a small part of the congrats, and truly extend Steve's high-five to all of you. He was very happy and proud that this community can get together, think things through, and come up with almost exactly what he would have done. (Pats on the back all around!!!)

So, now that we're all smiling and blushing, here's the short version.

Steve agreed wholeheartedly that we had to let my W go on her trip, and not confront her before she left. There's no question that this was exactly the right thing to do. He loved the "love notes" part...really loved it!

So, now we know she's still in contact, has been in constant contact, and we know she went there on July 18th, as well as on May 1st and 2nd.

Based on this knowledge here are the proposed steps:

1. We must confront her with this information asap, before the next apptmt on July 30th. This is my job...yowch!

2. IF she reacts positively to my confrontation, or to Steve's intervention on July 30th, (meaning some sort of admission some sort of committment to rebuilding) great; we go to the MB Weekend and take it as the "turning point", the "new and improved" Space family

3. If she DOES NOT react positively, (Either to me and perhaps cancels her appearance at the July 30th Steve session, or to Steve DURING that session), then I have to get with Steve about planning and excuting Plan B.

Steve feels strongly that it makes no sense to go to the MB Weekend unless she is "truly" on board, or at least admits, and prepares to try to get on board fully.

Obviously we have to take this one step at a time, and some of this may have to be adjusted (are u listening 2L?) based on my W's reactions/actions as we move along. We go one step at a time, review, regroup, and modify the approcah as required.

Gotta go to dinner, but I'll be back with more!

Hurry back! I'm sittin' here waiting with my mouth hangin' open .... what else are you going to tell us? I don't understand what happened at the prison......??? She was rejected from visiting?? WHY? And now she is distant and weird with you?

I am so glad you have SH to act as your tour guide to this fun "E-Ticket" adventure ride. Wheeeeeeee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

hi sc- I think the plan sounds great. HOw does steve advise you to confront?

Honey

Cadet,

I am proud of U!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you should be promoted up the rank to Space..... I am not good at the ranking lingo so someone, please help me out.

Good job Spacey....... keep up the good work.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Do you know why she was not allowed to visit and was escorted out?

Sounds kinda strange to me - did the OM decide he didn't want to see her any more? Maybe he isn't getting what he wants out of her any more - maybe he's finished using her for what he wanted her for?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, there apparently was some procedural violation in her application as a visitor.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Who gave you this information and do you know if it's accurate?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't really reveal the source, but it is unimpeachable and accurate to the best of my knowledge.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Her emotional reaction sounds like she thought she was going to visit and was cheerful - maybe she thought it was just a hitch - got down the next day when she wasn't allowed to see him, and it turned out to not be a hitch, but something more serious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is perfectly plausible. Would certainly explain the mood swings!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Who decides on who gets to visit who in prison? Has she done something that was against the prison rules?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a complicated process, with priority given to family members. There are background checks, and a slew of paperwork. However, let me just say that "things fall through the cracks" as in many federal entities.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I don't know - I kinda think now is the time to not push her away - if he has "dumped" her, now is when she is going to start some real soul-searching about who really loves her and whether what she has been doing is really worth it . I just hope she hasn't got herself into some kind of trouble.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I doubt he dumped her. But I suspect that IF she is unable to EVER visit again, which is what it looks like, he will dump her. From ALL of the conversations I ever intercepted, every one of them contained pleas for visits. This is CRITICAL for this guy; it seems it's like Christmas Day when he gets a visit, as his 2 ex's don't visit him, and one of his daughters only does so sporadically.
It appears that if she did something against the rules, it was not bad enough to get her into serious trouble. Just that visitation was eliminated for her. But, who knows? It may come back and bite her (us?)

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Maybe if you say something like "Are you allright? You seem kinda quiet?" Lets her know you noticed she is down, and that you care. Gives her a chance to open up. If she says something, ask her if she wants to talk about it - promise her you'll just listen and won't interrupt or give her advice. See what happens. It's probably nothing that's within your power to "fix" anyway - but listening to her is a loving thing to do, which may count a lot with her later, if you are able to do that.

Just MHO.
LIR </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That might be good, I doubt she volunteer this information; remember as far as she has said, this R has been over for months. She;s not about to "confess" just because she ran into some trouble there. Besides, she knows I'd be elated to hear of any news that meant less contact!
But, I'll be as kind as I can be, under the circumstances.

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alostwife:
<strong>Hmmmmm, I know you are not suppossed to stir the pot, but wouldn't it be lovely you could say something like:

"The prison system in Florida is soooo much better than in here"

Then walk away and whistle, see what she does.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I am bad... but I could be worse:

"A little birdie told me someone didn't get to see their fav con. What a misfortune, wonder why?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez! I'd LOVE to do something like that, but it's likely to get me killed! Or at least severely beaten! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Wow...so she really was hell bent on seeing him and really thought you were clueless to the whole thing. Now she's probably worried you know more than you're saying (which you do) and she probably suspects you had something to do with her not being able to see him. Crazy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As sad and pathetic as that sounds, it's probably very close to the truth. Have NO doubt; she's already convinced I'm to blame for this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alostwife:
<strong>Now seriously, I think this is a wonderful opportunity. Why? because if H4 is right and you keep the charade of being oblivious, then she will enventually snap!

If she is wondering if you did anything she is bitting her tongue as well. She cannot say anything to you because that would be the same as saying "Yes I, of my own free will, went to see the conguy, and yes, I went out of my way and was hell bent".

If she does that, there is no way in friggin hell she can take it back. She cannot whistle her way out of it, she cannot pretend she was just "testing" you or something. She will have to admit she lied, deceived and pretended, and you know she won't like that.

There is nothing that hurts a person with too much pride more than thinking they have it all figured out then tripping, and they feel even worse if they believe that they know what made them trip, and once again they are proved wrong.

If she comfronts you saying you did it, then you can say "No I didn't". She can try to prove it, but she won't be able to find anything since you are innocent.

Let her stew. So she didn't get to see OM, well BooHoo, that's what she gets from dating a con.

Keep your plan A full force, don't let it drop, this is on your favour Space, if she still doesn't want to see how wonderful you are due to stupid fog or pride, then she will have to face the fact that you might want a life with someone who won't put you through all this BS.

((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this could present a positive opprtunity, BUT it could also backfire.

It's positive in that it is one more flash of reality which, if it has not hit her (or OM) yet, it soon will. I guarantee you he'll be VERY, VERY disappointed in only having phone/mail communication. On the other hand, although it LOOKS to be a permanent state of affairs, there just MAY be a way they can get the visitation prohibition lifted at some point down the line.

On the other hand, it could just make her more P----D and determined than ever to get her way, especially if she belives I had something to do with it. Face it; no matter what happened, or how it happened, to her it's a given that I had a hand in this. And I may have inadvertently had a hand in it; I've been making all kinds of Freedom of Information inquiries about this guy and the prison system for several months...so someone may have wondered about that. Who knows!?!?!?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>Spacecase,

I can relate to what you say. Like trying to figure out what this friend meant by saying something like, don’t love someone that cannot love you back – my loose interpretation!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, that's what it is. BUT it could have some solid information behind it, as this person knows far more about this that they can tell me or talk about. So it's a concern, but nothing I can control, so I'll just do my thing, follow Steve's guidance, and if it works great, if not, I sure know I did all I could, and perhaps it was just not meant to be.
I have no illusions as to the probablility of a solid recovery; this has severely damaged my belief in my W's capacity to live in reality and in being a decent human being.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I heard what you said about Dobson’s religious perspective – I hope you can overlook that – these kinds of things are not specific concerns for any religion or race or ethnic group. The support group I am involved with makes strong references to seeking help from the “Higher Power” of our choice, whomever that might be.

Hope your session with Steve is productive!

Peace,
HH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, HH. I have no issue with the religious references, I kind of skim over those parts, as I don't feel I need biblical precedent for my actions, and I do believe in G-d, so it's not like I'm allergic or something! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>...don’t love someone that cannot love you back

there is a sometimes a strong human instinct for us to want something that is not easily obtainable</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,
I agree with HH on this point....I think the person telling you to "let it go" is basically saying the above to you.

Second point I wanted to make is, perhaps your WW is going through a certain "Withdrawal" of sorts, since she went there specifically to see OM. She couldn't get in, or maybe he is "rejecting" her? And now she has become depressed over it?

Just my thots.....

God Bless your tenacity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, LL; I also believe that this may be a "quick judgment" by someone not educated in the finer points of Rs and Ms, as we all were (and are still in many ways), but I have also learned in this journey not to dismiss the small details, as they sometimes can come back to bite us. And as I posted to another comment, this person knows a lot more than they are telling me, so who knows how "educated" or not this comment was.

On the second point about "withdrawl", I kinda' was hoping that's what was happening when she came back so distant and un-loving, but today, at lunch and since then, she's been like another person! Even my dad made the comment that she was "different"; all over me, lots of hugs and kisses, some pretty intense ones....drives me nuts! Don't get me wrong, I'm loving it, but what caused the sea-change? I can only think it's NOT something good for me! Sorry, 11 months of this and I'm cynical...I don't believe in anything I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt!

Wow, SC. I was listening! Didn't until late this evening, but I was listening.

I really wish my session with SH wasn't so "far in the future". I do need to be careful that I don't take the "bait" and let my W get me to react without thinking. That FEELS like it's going to be hard for that length of time, but who knows? Maybe that's just the right coo-down time for us?

I just want to make sure I don't screw anything up, since I went to plan B on my own, without coaching... People tell me I done good, though. I'll hold onto that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Hurry back! I'm sittin' here waiting with my mouth hangin' open .... what else are you going to tell us? I don't understand what happened at the prison......??? She was rejected from visiting?? WHY? And now she is distant and weird with you?

I am so glad you have SH to act as your tour guide to this fun "E-Ticket" adventure ride. Wheeeeeeee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, Pep, you don't know what I've been through all these days without talking to Steve, the doubts about the decision to confront, my W gone for several days down there, knowing she was going to see the OM, wondering what was going to happen, her behavior when she came back, then this news this morning...I was close to the edge, believe me!

I'm not sure what happened at the prison; the person I spoke with gave me some key information, like she was not allowed in and was escorted out, and has been suspended from visiting. I don't know why beyond the fact that it was a violation of the "rules", and obviously not a serious one, as she was not arrested or anything like that. It may be related to the issues we'd discussed way back when I was thinking of stopping communications between my W and OM, by reporting on "anomalies". Maybe they caught onto that, maybe I called attention to them by all my FOIA inquiries, I don't know.
I also don't know for sure if the prohibition is permanent or not, and I also know they can still communicate via phone/mail, although these are "under review". Perhaps I'll never know.

She came back, was very distant and un-loving, rejected my kisses, kissed me on the cheek when she arrived...totally unlike her past behavior. She's really been pretty good about this for several months now (weeks? I don't know). But then today, we met in town for lunch, and she was all over me! Hugs, kisses, embracing as we walked, hand-holding, passionate kisses...even dad commented about it! So either she's blowing smoke up my rear end, or she's happy about something, but certainly nothing I did; I didn't DO anything!

Steve said he believes we have done a good enough Plan A with her to face a confrontation, in the sense that she now knows I am capable of change, willing to change, and able to keep the changes, even in the face of an ongoing A. He also believes he's had enough time with her to build rapport, he's made some strides in the "privacy" area, and that she "intellectually" gets most of the principles, if not emotionally yet.

Also, the circumstances are clearly appropriate for a confrontation; she has lied to Steve and I, and we now know it for sure. Something happened at the prison which puts the R w/OM somewhat at risk, enough time has passed that she's running out of options, and she has, over the last several weeks been showing SOME signs of belief in me and our M. Very dim signs, but signs nonetheless.

A confrontation is necessary, as we all have known, because due to my backing off, partial detachment, and end of snooping/confronting, has created an environment where she's feeling pretty "safe" about continuing the R while "working" on our M, so this has to be challenged.

The confrontation is supposed to be classic Harley:
"Darlin', are you sure there's nothing you'd like to tell me or talk about?"
"No, why?"
"Well, OK. Look, I love you dearly, have forever. And all I want is for us to be together, and love each other as we should. Please listen to me for a minute without interrupting, and then you can answer, OK?"
"OK"
"I understand you have continued contact with the OM, and I know you haven't broken this off. What are your plans from here on?"

If there's a major outburst of denial, how do you know, why, not true, it may be necessary to give a couple of details that show I know things she thought were beteween she and OM only, which I have.

And then, no matter what her answer is, "This is something we need to discuss with Steve at our next session on the 30th."

And just leave it at that. NO discussion, argument, drawn into a fight, nothing! If it turns nasty, walk away and just say we'll discuss it with Steve.

Steve believes we have a good chance of making it, he's seen some of the "signs", and he thinks the combination of plan A, his sessions, and other circumstances bode well for us. I'm not quite as optimistic, but I'm still hopeful.

He reminded me that we're dealing with an "addict", and that addicts are different persons from their "real" selves while the object of the addiction is still available, and to remember that this is still the case.

He said we should all take pride in the fact that we've done a good job, and that he's proud of us and the MB community in all we've been able to accomplish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>hi sc- I think the plan sounds great. HOw does steve advise you to confront?

Honey</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VERY CAREFULLY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sorry, Honey, this has me a bit worried, but I think I can do it. I posted the "script" for the confrontation in my reply to Pep's post...thanks for being around!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Cadet,

I am proud of U!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you should be promoted up the rank to Space..... I am not good at the ranking lingo so someone, please help me out.

Good job Spacey....... keep up the good work.

L.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, O; this means a lot!

And I'm grateful to you and all the others for all you've taught me, and all the support. I mean that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Wow, SC. I was listening! Didn't until late this evening, but I was listening.

I really wish my session with SH wasn't so "far in the future". I do need to be careful that I don't take the "bait" and let my W get me to react without thinking. That FEELS like it's going to be hard for that length of time, but who knows? Maybe that's just the right coo-down time for us?

I just want to make sure I don't screw anything up, since I went to plan B on my own, without coaching... People tell me I done good, though. I'll hold onto that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ARE doing good, 2L! Hang in there, I think you "delaying" email of today will buy you SOME relief from the pressure from her.
Keep it up!!! I'm coming close to that, so maybe soon we'll be supporting each other thru our Plan Bs!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

SC:

I think your reply to pepper is rather intersting.

Why? you ask?

What. Now you want ME to explain?

Actually, what you describe as the "script" is almost verbatim what I asked of my W on Wednesday, when we had the "DV" discussion. Rather, the discussion about the hotmail acct and the privacy. That was a confrontation on my part, for sure. I was very matter of fact about it. Talked about what I knew - not from snooping but from what she'd said at various times and what the context was - things that clued me in (though I had confirmation otherwise) that she was still in frequent contact with Rat Meat. And I handled it kind of like you describe you plan to do, only I don't have a joint session with SH planned. Well, I *could*, if I choose to tell my W about the appointment end of next week *and* she wants to participate.

I know you recommend I don't bring her along for the first one. But I wonder if anything might happen in the interim that might make that a reasonable idea? But then, it might just take ME the entire time to tell my story!

Pepper.

You've got mail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I think your reply to pepper is rather intersting.

Why? you ask?

What. Now you want ME to explain?

Actually, what you describe as the "script" is almost verbatim what I asked of my W on Wednesday, when we had the "DV" discussion. Rather, the discussion about the hotmail acct and the privacy. That was a confrontation on my part, for sure. I was very matter of fact about it. Talked about what I knew - not from snooping but from what she'd said at various times and what the context was - things that clued me in (though I had confirmation otherwise) that she was still in frequent contact with Rat Meat. And I handled it kind of like you describe you plan to do, only I don't have a joint session with SH planned. Well, I *could*, if I choose to tell my W about the appointment end of next week *and* she wants to participate. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you can use this basic script for ANY type of confrontation. It leaves little room for discussion/argument, and you adjust it to the circumstances. You can always say "let's discuss this in a joint session with Steve, which I'll arrange."

If there's an argument, the line is "look, I'm not asking you to confirm this. I know it's true already. I just want to know what your plans are."

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you recommend I don't bring her along for the first one. But I wonder if anything might happen in the interim that might make that a reasonable idea? But then, it might just take ME the entire time to tell my story! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There may be ciscumstances where an initial joint session might be appropriate, like to establish that it's not you and Steve against her, but I believe you need to clue him into the big picture and give him some pointers so he knows what to expect when he speaks with her, and knows the right questions to ask, etc. Besides, it'll give YOU an initial plan of attack which is VERY, VERY comforting! (Even if it will change as you move along...)

SC:

Okay. That does make some sense. I guess it's just my impatience to get this M moving that makes me want her along NOW.