Spacecase...

What are the KEY points you want to convey to your W? ...ie;

I don't want my love for W to die.
I cannot tolerate continued contact.
I accept my mistakes and my faults as part of what needs to change.
The time has come to choose.

What are Space's key points?

Pepper

Thanks for the Plan B letter feedback. I'll give it another edit and re-post it....that's what this is about!

Thanks again everyone!

Space,

Hmmmm....I thought that maybe your thread, 2long's thread, and P's over in JFO must have finally crashed the discussion board!!!

Happy to have a chance to tell you good luck tomorrow with your appt with SH. We're leaving for a 2 week vacation starting tomorrow; so I'll just have to wait until I get back to hear of your success.

As we both know you are in very good hands with SH; and you've been such a good MBer!

I got a good perspective/reality check yesterday. My H and older son were hiking in Santa Fe National Forest and got lost. They were only supposed to be gone 2 hours.

9 hours later I panicked when they weren't back. (I kept talking myself out of the fact that anything was wrong because H is an Eagle Scout and very experienced backpacker). Called the Director of the camp for boy scouts; he contacted the Park Rangers and they sent out 3 search parties. They were up and running in 10 minutes...impressive I thought

H and son came in on their own finally. Son had bought a compass the day before and had it in his backpack. They made a wrong turn on the trail etc. Both were OK, just hungry, thirsty and had a good story about running into a bear. The bear ran faster than H and son thank goodness.

Scared our whole family; so off we go on vacation, very thankful to be together.

Wish I had a laptop like 2long!! CSue

Faith; thanks for the feedback. I agree that the "extra" stuff in the letter is unnecessary. However, I have specific reasons for saying some of this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>Spacey,

Upon kinda quick review here, I think you can take these paragraphs out:

>You have chosen to spend time and give your emotional connection to this specific man and possibly others. ......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is important because she has always felt that her emotional connection to the OM does not hurt us, and should be OK. So this point is important for me to convey.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
>It means a great deal to me that you care enough to have kept trying.......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another key point; she has insisted that no matter what she does, how hard she tries, I will never forgive or be able to move on. That I just don't see what she's done for our M. So I wanted to reiterate this point to her.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
>I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our marriage, but .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't this part of the standard letter? accepting my responsibility for the damage?

Thanks!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YetAgain:
<strong>Hi Spacecase,

You asked for opinions so........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you have done and are doing an awesome Plan A! Reading your posts has helped me to be a little more patient and to step back and take a look at the bigger picture before I act or react especially during the most trying and/or torturous times. I thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your process.

About your Plan B letter.....

Sorry Spacecase, maybe I am too sensitive right now but if I received that letter any hope I had, any thought of "maybe" dumping Rat Meat and rebuilding with you would fly right out the window. I didn't read the whole thing though...too long. Like I said, though, I might be too sensitive right now and maybe what I found to be "finger-pointing" and "demands" are not really that at all.

Just my opinion. Take care.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks YA. Very glad my experiences have helped you!

Would you be more specific about the letter? What parts are "finger-pointing" and "demanding"?

Thanks!!!

leave in the part about accepting your part for the downfall of the M... and the but part is good too, but start a new sentence and dont say but.

My h is always compalining that I do:

I 'm sorry//// But
im sorry... but....

then I say what he did to make me do what I did... which is so typical..

but then again they both feel- both of these ws.. that we think we are superior or better than them.. right? Mine does anyway.. maybe because my morals are stronger.. ? who knows? mayb e because he does mess up.../ ? or she does? who knows... but dont say but. OK?

H

Space,
I understand the points you feel you are communicating. But, as a reader, the letter is really too long, and I identified those paragraphs as modifications to the "basic" letter most of us use, AND as being redundant in regards to the rest of the letter.

You take responsibility for your mistakes in a paragragh above ("I sincerely apologize...").

Several other times you mention the importance of ending the A, due to the damage to your marriage, (that's really the whole point of plan B - no contact - is that you won't tolerate the OM in your life... which you state later... nuff said, really) so I think the "OM" paragraph is sorta preachy.

As far as your forgiveness and willingness to move forward in marital recovery, your excellent Plan A has demonstrated that (even though she has blinders on, but I'm not sure that reiterating AGAIN will help), and your whole letter also explins this as well.

I will offer a suggestion, as additional comfort for you, to satisfy your need to communicate.... write a few "Plan A" type notes or letters while you are still in Plan A. You can communicate some of this stuff in perfect Plan A mode, and perhaps given to her in smaller chunks, will be easier for her to digest. I used to send XH something every week. A light e-mail, an e-card, a note, .... varying the seriousness and length of my writing. But about once a month, I tried to communicate some of that REAL stuff you are doing. THEN, when it was time for Plan B, my letter could be shorter and to the point of "I love you, but can't be in contact while OW is around".

Make sense? Just trying to help you be most effective in your communication. The wording of Plan B letters is vital - it might your last chance to communicate where you stand. But it has to be digestible.

I suggest you trim out as much as you can. Then step back and re-read it. You're just trying to get a couple of key points (like Pepper said) across.

k?

Thanks Faith. I'll keep working on it.

In the meantime...my W has just announced that she will not participate in today's call with Steve. She says she's "not ready" for that call today.

I told her I was disappointed, but that it was her choice. I also told her we have another call scheduled for next week, and could I tell Steve she'd attend that one? She said "Yes".

So...we'll have to see what Steve says...this is not a positive turn of events.

Thoughts?

What time is your call? We will be anxiously awaiting to hear how it goes... what Steve says. I'm betting he will still keep things calm for now, and will want to talk to her next time.

I'm sorry she backed out on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That's terribly frustrating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What could she be afraid of - not "not ready for"?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>What time is your call? We will be anxiously awaiting to hear how it goes... what Steve says. I'm betting he will still keep things calm for now, and will want to talk to her next time.

I'm sorry she backed out on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That's terribly frustrating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What could she be afraid of - not "not ready for"?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm betting you're right on Steve's take.

What she's afraid of is of making a decision. She's torn, unsure, fogged. She's been thinking about it, certainly, probably discussing it with the OM too...but she's not ready. Also, she's not ready to face what she knows Steve will say; "End it, NC, extreme measures to assure no contact". And she's probably embarrassed to have to admit to Steve she's been lying to him. Things are caving in all around her, and she still doesn't see it...

"not ready" simply means she's trying to figure out a way out of this one that doesn't involve losing the OM, that's what it means. She's always been buying time...for what exactly, I'm unsure, but everything she's done up to now has been to buy time. Either because she's waiting for "something", or because she cannot face the decision and is trying to find a way to avoid having to make it.

VERY frustrating.

I was wondering ... don't exactly know how to phrase this .... might one of your key points be that OM is not an upstanding citizen and there will never be any way you will tolerate your children's exposure to OM and his chosen lifestyle .... ? Too great an LB?

ASK SH abouut this please! I am not sure if this is necessary to include in a plan_B letter ... but it is bothering me ... for me it's like a whole different elephant in the room that she is ignoring.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC:

It's ironic that I actually feel your situation is MORE hopeful than my own at this point (please see my new thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019261). Although I'm pretty downbeat in my post, I can see Pepper has already jumped in and is going to get me to stop fretting about my W and look at ME again! (thanks, Pep!). I'll go ahead an post what I was going to here, but I'll go back "home" and try to answer Pepper and think positively again!

"What she's afraid of is of making a decision. She's torn, unsure, fogged."

My W, too.

"She's been thinking about it, certainly, probably discussing it with the OM too...but she's not ready."

I don't have any idea what my W and Rat Meat say to each other. I do know that she believes that I "believe" that she only talks to him via email and infrequently. I know different.

"Also, she's not ready to face what she knows Steve will say; "End it, NC, extreme measures to assure no contact"."

I wouldn't be surprised if my W refuses to talk to him (or any other C, for that matter) for this reason.

"And she's probably embarrassed to have to admit to Steve she's been lying to him."

When confronted, my W angrily admits to "lying" to me (though that's not what she calls it, of course). She's not embarrassed at all.

"Things are caving in all around her, and she still doesn't see it..."

Same here. Different house of cards, though. Same inevitable result.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>I was wondering ... don't exactly know how to phrase this .... might one of your key points be that OM is not an upstanding citizen and there will never be any way you will tolerate your children's exposure to OM and his chosen lifestyle .... ? Too great an LB?

ASK SH abouut this please! I am not sure if this is necessary to include in a plan_B letter ... but it is bothering me ... for me it's like a whole different elephant in the room that she is ignoring.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry I missed this until after the call, as I would have asked Steve. But I have time, we're not immediately going to plan b...a couple more things to try first. Will post all about it in a few...

Thanks Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

An interesting, although not entirely unpredictable, result with Steve's session today.

First I told him all about the "confrontation" and the few notable events after that, as well as my W's decision not to attend today's call, saying she "is not ready" to talk to Steve.

He thought the confrontation went well, and that I handled it beautifully. That this has made her think and wonder, and that it showed detachment, a matter-of-fact attitude, and that I am not only serious about this, but that I will no longer tolerate lame excuses without tearing them apart. An all done without LBing or anger, or demeaning her in any way.

He agrees that this has her thinking, wondering, pondering, and that perhaps she has just not put two and two together yet, but that the stage is set for thet to happen. (Two and two being decide or I'll decide for you, or something to that effect).

I personally believe she is still desperately trying to buy time, keep the current status, and that nothing we can do short of drastic measures will change that, and I told Steve as much. But he believes we still have a couple of cartridges to fire before that.

I also told him she'd committed to being on the call with him next week, which he liked.

So, here's the scenario:

1st salvo;
Porpose to W that we DO attend the MB Weekend this coming weekend. Why the change of heart from last week? Because Steve, (I think rightly), believes is that there are 2 elements to this problem; 1 is her desire and love for the OM, and the other one is her being unsure if she and I could ever really fall in love with each other again in the way she feels about the OM.
The seminar will not do anything about the first part, BUT it can do a lot for the second part. By being exposed to all the principles, presented by Papa Harley, and with Steve around and all these couples working together, she will intellectually understand and grasp all of this much better, and begin to see (intellectually, again) that the complete package, put together, is very logical, makes sense, and is true. And obviously, before one can embrace the concepts emotionally, one must understand and embrace them intellectually.

So he believes that I should again invite her to the weekend, let her know that going does not constitute a committment to our marriage, but rather a way to help her make up her mind whether to committ or not. No strings attached, so to speak.

If she accepts, great! Off we go, and come next session with Steve, we have the seminar under our belts, and a chance to speak with Steve directly, meet papa Harley, etc. etc. Not to mention "the Mall of the Americas", which I'm sure she'll LOVE!! (Weird how my wife is like that; I'm sure most of the women here don't feel that way about malls at all!!!)

2nd salvo; If she does not accept, them I'm to ask her; "OK, then what would you like to do?" Since she'll probably not have an answer, I should go on with; "Well, what we're doing up to now, going day by day, doesn't seem to be working so I think we have a couple of options; one, we can continue to talk to Steve; he believes he has a sure-fire way to turn this marriage around. Or two, we can do something else that you believe would work. Any ideas here?"

Since, once again, she'll probably have no answer, I should confirm; "OK, so I take it you want to committ to the unstructured approach, you're committing to the day-by-day approcah we've been following?" and then "OK, this is just so that I understand what you'd like to do"

Then, I am to hold onto my hat until the next session with Steve on Tuesday.

3rd salvo; During that session, if she doesn't back out of attending, Steve will attempt to gain her committment to as much as he can; end the R, NC, measures for NC, moving forward. If that is not possible, then at least a committment to thinking about it and having a response for the NEXT session. 1 more week. The 4th and final salvo.

I told him that if with ANY of these approaches we see some SERIOUS progress (end it, NC, committ to ending it, committ to a decision, something tangible and verifiable) then I'd go along with the week-by-week thing. Otherwise, I'd go to Plan B at any of these stages where she clearly does not committ or waffles so much that we cannot determine what she's wanting/willing to do.

So...the show continues...and in the meantime, we've just passed the 11th month since DDay (7/26), and we're rapidly approaching a year since DDay (8/26), and our 21st Anniversary (Aug. 30)...dates that are not only important to me emotionally, but that also clearly indicate my perseverance, patience, and committment to this marriage. It's time.

Space, you're doing great! Sounds like you have a clear head, a good plan, and the proper amount of patience!!!

I agree on the Plan B letter...I started reading and then thought I was reading certain parts again....very redundant. Still, very good too. Tighten it up a little and you'll be good to go...and hopefully will never have to use it!

One other quicky thought...

Comments like "You're the one I love, I'll fight for you" actually worked in the OPPOSITE direction desired on me. I'm not sure what others opinion are on that. But for me, it just fed that foggy disillusion that it was someone's job to "fight" for me...because I couldn't do it myself. It also felt like an awful lot of pressure and I usually ran the opposite direction. Not to mention...if you DO wind up going to plan B...it won't appear to her that you're fighting for her or the marriage. I know you will be...but it might send a bit of a mixed message. JMO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>One other quicky thought...

Comments like "You're the one I love, I'll fight for you" actually worked in the OPPOSITE direction desired on me. I'm not sure what others opinion are on that. But for me, it just fed that foggy disillusion that it was someone's job to "fight" for me...because I couldn't do it myself. It also felt like an awful lot of pressure and I usually ran the opposite direction. Not to mention...if you DO wind up going to plan B...it won't appear to her that you're fighting for her or the marriage. I know you will be...but it might send a bit of a mixed message. JMO</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right, H4F...I'll try to remember that.

I just got the news that my grandfather died in Colombia this morning. He was 99, and I will miss him dearly. G-d bless his soul.

I spoke with my W about my conversation with Steve, and his reasons for wanting us to go to the MB Weekend anyway. (This does not constitute a committment on either of our parts, simply a chance to learn more about our R and about the MB way, so that we are better prepared to make decisions). She said she'd think about it; at least it wasn't an outright NO. Probably decide by tonight; we need to cancel if we're not going.

Also, here's a further edited version of the Plan B letter for your review and comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My Dear W,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been working on for weeks now.

I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career thinking I was doing the right thing for us and our family, without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openness and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I cannot commit to marriage on any terms other than those, and I am determined not to.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and work hard to create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. I cannot do that until you end your relationship with OM and all other relationships and emotional commitments which require you to maintain a secret second life that takes away from our relationship, for once and for all. I love you and I want our marriage to work but in order to preserve my love for you I am no longer able to keep working on our marriage until there is no contact with the other man.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially in meeting all of our current obligations. I will continue to pay the mortgage and I will provide you & the children with groceries and other basic needs, but I will not be able to pay for utilities or for your car and other expenses of our home; you will have to cover those yourself. I have made arrangements for the children to see or stay with me whenever they desire, but they must do it without you. If I should need to come to the house, I will make sure to do it when you are not there, or will make arrangements with the children to bring me what I might need. I’d appreciate your leaving my mail in the mailbox as I will pick it up myself. If you need to communicate with me regarding the children or any other matter, it will have to be through a friend or family member, (I might suggest D or B), unless it is an emergency involving the children, in which case I will take your call.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, while knowing that you are with him, and hearing the sound of your voice when you speak to him; sounds I have not heard in many years. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OM, demonstrate it in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure total and permanent separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together. We cannot make the mistake we made in the past, thinking that by just ending the external relationship things would work themselves out. The scars that episode left in us are probably one of the major factors in why we are where we are today. We must commit to our marriage and to each other as our number one priority in every way, and we must jointly agree to a marriage recovery plan that includes the following: Protection - avoiding being the cause of each other’s unhappiness; Care - meeting each other’s emotional needs; Time - giving each other our undivided attention; and Honesty - being totally open and honest with each other. Steve Harley can help us do this, as well as help us with a plan we can both agree on.

I understand how difficult this is for you as well, and I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support as we work through this together.

I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I believe in you. I believe in your ambitions and goals for your business and your life. I marvel at what you've done for us and for so many others over the years. Our children; look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them. YOU made yourself the person you are today. Nobody else did. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a woman, a businessperson and a mother.

I love you W; you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too.

I’ve loved you since I met you, I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you today; perhaps even more than I ever did before. I look at the picture of us on the beach, and I remember the dreams and the hopes, the stars, and the sunsets we watched. I remember our first awkward time together, and I still believe those dreams are possible. I just cannot be with you or see you while you are still involved with OM and feel the need to have a separate life without me.

All my love,

Spacecase
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi Spacecase,

Right now I feel like I'm a WS-wannabe. Don't worry...I won't be going there but it does kinda put me in a position to read your Plan B letter from a perspective that might be similar to your WS's....you know, from Taker mode <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you're game....with no hard feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .....just let me know.

P.S. If it were my FWH asking me to join in with Cing with SH, I would probably have backed out too...you know, the Taker mode thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> BUT....I have an idea about a certain kind of *invitation* that might persuade participation next week!